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#619635 - 01/09/09 06:09 AM 'Pure Sound' replica piano wire
delacey-simms Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/14/08
Posts: 114
Loc: Kirkbymoorside N.Yorks UK
For an 1860s Broadwood restoration I have had lots of conflicting advice on the use of 'Pure Sound' wire. Some say it best emulates the type of wire no longer made from this period the best, others (including my bass-string maker) are critical of these claims. 'Pure Sound' controversially use stainless steel but are the only company I know of that specialise in replica wire for the 1850 to 1900 period. In England pianos of this date rarely have value and not many outfits will bother with them. The other thing I heard about 'Pure Sound' wire is that it's inconsistent in quality as you move through the guages. Can anyone shed light on this?
_________________________
delacey-simms
piano tuner, technician and enthusiast.
All my comments are posted with the utmost respect to the other technicians

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#619636 - 01/09/09 01:02 PM Re: 'Pure Sound' replica piano wire
Josef Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 190
Pure Sound is great stuff to work with. I've heard it even being used in spinets and consoles with good results. Pure Sound is easy to work with. I've used it to restring a Bosendorfer from the 1850s with amazing results. Modern wire is much to stiff and requires more tension which leads to tuning problems, sustain problems and volume problems.

I'm getting ready to use it in an Erard from the 1860s.

The gauge is totally different from Modern wire. It is not made to be measured by the same guages as modern as it is meant to be measured to the historical standard. Its main purpose is to mimic the wire used of that time. Its a different composite similiar to the old but a little more refined.

Most people like to compare it to modern wire just like the way they like to compare modern to historical pianos.

The person who I recommend for you questions is Mr. Edward Swenson. He is a great source for help and supplies.

Also a side note- You have piano made by one of the best makers of the time. Beethoven's favoured piano was his Broadwood and Chopin loved the one he used in his time spent in London. Most Piano techs know little or nothing about historical instruments so the appreciation is little. Your best bet is to contact Mr. Swenson or even Mr. Winston from Period piano co. in England.

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#619637 - 01/09/09 01:15 PM Re: 'Pure Sound' replica piano wire
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
I use soft iron on my 1800 Broadwood from Malcolm Rose - http://www.malcolm-rose.com/. Ring for advice, he's very helpful.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#619638 - 01/09/09 01:26 PM Re: 'Pure Sound' replica piano wire
delacey-simms Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/14/08
Posts: 114
Loc: Kirkbymoorside N.Yorks UK
Yes, I use Malcolm Rose for pre 1850, I think his wire is great on wooden framed instruments but it doesn't stand up to the higher tensions associated with a full cast iron frame.. Or so I'm told!
_________________________
delacey-simms
piano tuner, technician and enthusiast.
All my comments are posted with the utmost respect to the other technicians

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#619639 - 01/09/09 01:30 PM Re: 'Pure Sound' replica piano wire
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Shame you're so far away. I need a tuner!
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#619640 - 01/09/09 04:17 PM Re: 'Pure Sound' replica piano wire
Chuck Littau Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/19/08
Posts: 15
Loc: Kansas City
OK, I am sitting here in front of my computer, too lazy to go get my Schaff catalog. So where do I purchase this "Pure Sound" piano wire? Does Schaff carry it? If not where?
_________________________
Chuck Littau, Kansas City Piano Tuner
Serving greater Kansas City since 1984
KansasCityPianoTuning.com

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#619641 - 01/09/09 06:06 PM Re: 'Pure Sound' replica piano wire
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
My business Piano Forte Supply is the general distributor of Pure Sound wire for North America. I am neither a scholar of early pianos, nor a metallurgist, but I do know a few things about this wire.
 Quote:
Originally posted by delacey-simms:
'Pure Sound' controversially use stainless steel but are the only company I know of that specialise in replica wire for the 1850 to 1900 period.
There is nothing controversial about the metal alloy used. The fact that it is stainless is somewhat incidental. The idea is that this wire closely approximates the physical and tonal properties of wire common between 1850 - 1890 or so. As well, the use of "replica wire" and "replica piano" in the thread title are somewhat ambiguous.

Josef, thanks for sharing your positive impression. However,
 Quote:
Originally posted by Josef:
The gauge is totally different from Modern wire. It is not made to be measured by the same guages as modern as it is meant to be measured to the historical standard.
Sorry, but this is absolutely wrong.. Pure Sound is made in standard, modern European wire gauges. Incidently Röslau, the famous German wire, has the identical wire gauges. The European wire gauges differ from the American ones in that the wire is about 1/2 gauge smaller. Here is a precise gauge comparison chart

More info on Pure Sound can be found here
_________________________
Jurgen Goering
Piano Forte Supply
www.pianofortesupply.com

Piattino Caster Cups distributor

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#619642 - 01/16/09 03:46 PM Re: 'Pure Sound' replica piano wire
Josef Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 190
Sorry for being wrong about measurements.

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#619643 - 01/17/09 12:37 AM Re: 'Pure Sound' replica piano wire
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 658
Hello Jurgen

When should one use Pure Sound Wire instead of Roslau wire?

I have been using Roslau on pianos that are from late 1800's to very modern pianos, eg Yamaha and Kawai's etc...

When and how does one decide to use Pure Sound wire instead of Roslau?

Thank you

Mark
_________________________
Mark Davis
Piano Tuner & Technician

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#619644 - 01/17/09 02:38 AM Re: 'Pure Sound' replica piano wire
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21427
Loc: Oakland
What matters is the weight per unit of length, rather than the gauge, anyway.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#619645 - 01/17/09 11:26 PM Re: 'Pure Sound' replica piano wire
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
Mark, it i a scaling question. Never use Pure Sound in a situation without looking at the scaling. There are modern pianos that PS can be used on the whole, for example low tension scale piano such as S&S models up to C and D. But don't put it on any piano without being sure about the tensions.

This can be done manually or with scaling software. There are even scaling software programs that have the Pure Sound inharmonicity coefficients and tensile strengths embedded, such as "Bonamens" and one more with a catchy name that eludes me at the moment....

There was a thread back in October about the use of Pure Sound to overcome scaling problem areas in modern pianos.
_________________________
Jurgen Goering
Piano Forte Supply
www.pianofortesupply.com

Piattino Caster Cups distributor

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#619646 - 01/19/09 03:16 AM Re: 'Pure Sound' replica piano wire
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 658
Hello BDB and Jurgen

Thank you very much for your responses.

Scaling is an area of piano technology which I need to look into so I can understand and apply it. It does seem that there is not to much information about it, but I stand to correction.

Thank you

Mark
_________________________
Mark Davis
Piano Tuner & Technician

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#619647 - 01/20/09 03:16 PM Re: 'Pure Sound' replica piano wire
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 658
There are two books which I am going to read which I think deal quite thoroughly with scale calculation: the one is by John Travis - A Guide To Restringing and the other is by Samuel Wolfenden - The Art Of PianoForte Construction.

Mark
_________________________
Mark Davis
Piano Tuner & Technician

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#619648 - 01/22/09 04:37 AM Re: 'Pure Sound' replica piano wire
delacey-simms Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/14/08
Posts: 114
Loc: Kirkbymoorside N.Yorks UK
Jurgen, you are a valuable asset to this forum! Thanks for the info.
I am going to calculate the tensions and order the guages this week, and I shall inform my bass-string maker that things have come on in the last six years! One question you might be able to help with:
The Broadwood stringing eyes were twice wrapped round the hitch pin before coming back up for the usual three coils and short tail. Does the make-up of Pure Sound wire respond ok to this kind of eye or is a conventional german eye (once round the hitch) more appropriate for the lower tensile properties of the wire? My inclination would be to put back like for like, but of all the broken strings on the instrument about a fifth had snapped at the eye instead of at the wrest-pin coil. As usual your wisdom is appreciated!
_________________________
delacey-simms
piano tuner, technician and enthusiast.
All my comments are posted with the utmost respect to the other technicians

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#619649 - 01/22/09 04:54 PM Re: 'Pure Sound' replica piano wire
sunslight Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/25/04
Posts: 106
Loc: Provo, Utah, USA
Mark,

I have an Estonia 190. It had scaling problems with the stiffer Roslau wire. I fought the problem for three years.

A couple of moths ago, we tried just one string with Jurgens' Pure Sound. The difference was more than remarkable. All the problems I had fought, for so long, disappeared.

And yet the sound is very close to the Roslau.

You can hear a difference--the Pure Sound is sweeter, more mellow, but that sound diff. can be fixed by voicing.

Actually, I'd like to have my whole instrument in Pure Sound.

For new wire, it is holding pitch better than any I have ever used.

I can't recommend it highly enough: whether you are using it for an "older sound," or to fix problems with some of the other modern wires.

Had it not been for the wire, my piano would have gone back to the factory. Now I have the instrument sounding, as it should.

And no, I'm not employed by Jurgen, just am grateful that the wire he sells saved my piano.

Bob
_________________________
__________
Estonia 190, high-gloss ebony, fully touchweighted and wonderful.

A painter paints his pictures on canvas. But musicians paint their pictures on silence.

PTG member. BA in music theory; graduate work in musicology, voice & piano major instruments.

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#619650 - 01/22/09 09:41 PM Re: 'Pure Sound' replica piano wire
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
Delacey -
I don't think the double loops are a problem for the wire per se. That fact that some strings of unknown wire broke at the loop will help to make this point;
Any wire can easily be weakened by manipulating it - bending it unneccsarily back and forth or even bending it too quickly. Those loops were probably bent and twisted at some point, perhaps during stringing or even at the string making stage.

Pure Sound is even more sensitive to mechanical abuse than regular piano wire. Bass string makers must slow down a little when making the loops, and use tools such as pliers etc that have smooth faces. Once the surface of the wire is nicked, the tensile strength will probably be impacted.

One thing I would ask of you - is there any way you could change the title of this thread? It irks me every time I see it. Pure Sound is neither a replica wire, nor is it made for replica pianos.... I don't even know what both of those are... :^)
_________________________
Jurgen Goering
Piano Forte Supply
www.pianofortesupply.com

Piattino Caster Cups distributor

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