Yes, that's pretty much it Ron. I'm referring to concert work as well though and temp and RH. Look at it this way guys and tell me your opinions.

How many times haven't you seen a piano that is setting directly where the sun can shine on it? All of a sudden the sun comes out. The tuning changes drastically because NOW the sun IS shining on it? It changes very quickly. I do not believe that is the wires. I do not believe either that you can actually observe the wires expanding or contracting just with your eyes. At least not with mine. :-) I believe it is the wood shrinking and the wires following it. It almost always changes the most, in the middle of the tenor or center of the piano.

I have a church that blows air right on the piano. Every time that thing comes on, the tuning changes almost immediately. That can't be the strings expanding and contracting so quickly, can it? It has got to be the wood, right?

No, the air blowing on the strings causes them to expand and contract immediately with the temepature changes. Metal reacts to temperature changes quickly. That's why the self tuning thing works and they make cookware out of metal. Check out how fast your tuning fork changes with temperature. There is more metal in the fork than a wire so it will change temperature slower.

It takes a week before you see much noticeable change in the EMC of the wood. You can base this on how many days after the weather changes till the phone starts ringing.

It is exactly the strings, as Keith points out. The sun (or stage lights) shining on the strings does very little or nothing to change the hunidity of air surrounding the piano. And even if so, it would take a lot time for the woodenparts of the piano to find the new equilibrium with the air, several hours at least.

It sure makes tuning in west facing amphitheaters interesting.

"PHOENIX" is the name of the experiments made by Richard Dain, a rich retired engineer and industrial, that run a piano bizness, customizing pianos like Steingraeber, Bluthner, Bosendorfer (the main job is done by a subcontractor in Poland)

bridges agrafes, thin high treble, lately they thinned the soundboards to the max.

If so they are interested to try that seriously, as Petrof is probably.

But I know at last a pofessional pianist that did not like the changes made - job provided by the polish subcontractor of R. Dain.

Very controversed, (like Ron Overs) I heard the music samples on the web site, and the¨Bôsendorfer is nice, then I heard that concert pianist that told me that when he was there, he disliked a lot the modified instruments, uneven voicing, misergulated, he was depited, expecting probably way better .
When he was there he played side by side Staingraeber Phoenix and normal he preferred the original version of the piano (for whatever reason).

Tone and action behavior is certainly a standard, it may be difficult to introduce something new (way less difficulat actually as the listening of people is changing, as musical taste)

Talking again of moisture and pinning, I have tuned a Kaway, with all black whippen/jack and hamer butt.

This is a silent piano and the pianist plays it a lot, as he prepare to enter the Paris National Music school.

6 month's old, I noticed that the pinning is now uneven like it can be on an used piano. In the medium range, the violent stopping of the hammer shank by the silent system conduced to fast wear of the pinning (the key mortise as well have too much and uneven play)

As usual you rarely can't win both ways. This is a traditional instrument, with good reasons to use parts done that way or another.

I believe that if I use the Renner bushing cloth in a Kawai flange I take the risk of sluggish pârts in humid days. the cloth seem twice stiffer to me.

Well, that is very interesting indeed. I did not know this. I still find it hard to believe though..

Let me give one more thought. A grand, setting in the living room of a home. A heat vent directly on the floor blowing up at the sounding board. The heat turns on. The tuning changes rather quickly. The heat turns off, it reverses.

From what you two are saying, the heat is actually being pretty much ignored by the wood at this point but, is instead being transfered to the strings for them to expand and contract, right? If so, how is that not affecting the sounding board first?

I was taught, that a pianos wood breathes constantly. It's expanding and contracting according to the amount of moisture content in the air that affects the amount of moisture content in the wood. That if the sun shines on IT, the moisture content immediately began to change.

Maybe this doesn't matter but, I've carried a Hygrometer with me that I set on the harp for over 10 years now. The very second the heat changes in either direction, the RH also goes up or down accordingly.

Your thoughts once again please?

Jerry,

Heat and moisture content are intimely related, that is why giving air moisture content mean not much if the air temperature is not given as well.

As I had high tech EDt some years ago, I could check the drift of a string only afer warming id with my thumb on it for a minute, the drift was around 1 cts , and very immediate.

Wood react way less than metal to temperature change, and moisture goes in an out but slowly.
A point you may want to consider also is that the iron frame expand with the warming, it takes a few hours but it will bring that pitch alost as high as it was befor the heat was turned on.

Hello,
I did not understood how to post pictures.

This is a very simple setup : a vertical small metal plank that can be secured on the bench, have a saw line in it , a wooden plank can do the job as well but it may be thin enough, because the end of the long center is thinned no more than 0.75 ', and you have to catch that thinned end with the flat pliers, a too thick plank will not allow for it.
mine have a wooden plank as main support, and a smaller metal sheet with the saw line on the top of it.
Pinning a vertical flange set with that method is less than 1.5 hours, and the result is more consistent than with little centers.

BTW in the factory , the centers have an annealed portion that allow it to be cut without cutting pliers. that is how one can understand the initial insertion direction one side (the sharp side) have that annealed part still showing, the other ide is shiny.

Is it possible to post pictures from my own hard disk without uploading them on a web site first ?

Kamin,
Quote,” Wood react way less than metal to temperature change, and moisture goes in an out but slowly.”

Agreed. However in boiler heated buildings(churches and schools) here in the northwest my experience has been the older the instrument (longer it has been in this environment) the more rapid the moisture loss or gain. Jerry this might be what you are experiencing there as you are in the north somewhat and referring to instruments in churches, or large rooms where a lot of people suddenly gather.

Keith,
Quote,” It takes a week before you see much noticeable change in the EMC of the wood.”
Agreed. For “new equipment” in these boiler heated buildings ……..recall the first posting by John. This would be a boiler heated building with a new instrument, here in the north. For older equipment I don’t believe this applies or better, applies in a different way.

Jurgen, Quote “It is exactly the strings, as Keith points out. The sun (or stage lights) shining on the strings does very little or nothing to change the humidity of air surrounding the piano. And even if so, it would take a lot of time for the wooden parts of the piano to find the new equilibrium with the air, several hours at least.”

Agreed on the strings. Jerry from my experience with being a former welder and fitter, this is correct, metal does expand really fast. Copper especially. Copper expands faster than the steel core actually.

Jurgen I would have to disagree somewhat on the stage lights comments. Again on the parts changing shape and taking time to find the new equilibrium, I am of the opinion it is the new felt that will readily accept contaminants more rapidly then the new wooden parts. I am going back to the original posting of sticky keys/action parts.

Dan what contaminants, and what would they do to the felt and or pin?

I'm guessing that the bushings are a little tight from being unworn and the flange wood shrinking. The sudden humidity change on Sunday morning could also swell the bushings. I believe that the friction from playing is causing the center pin to expand by being heated, and/or some contaminant from the factory turning tacky.

Hey Tooner,
There are a lot of airborne particles that I believe we cannot see. Moisture is one for sure. I have had experience where cooking oils are another. Dusty conditions could be a third, generally dirt particles. Remember Tooner, I am going back to the original posting here and trying to address the friction problems .
Yes I totally agree that new flanges could be too tight to begin with, or shrink, but remember, yes, the sudden humidity changes, especially in the sanctuary, or chapel if you like. These particular instruments stand alone all week, like I stated previous, suddenly 200 people crowd in the room with damp coats and wet boots and sit for over an hour. I am of the firm belief that we would be foolish to presume that the humidity in these types of rooms would not change. I am going back to the statement from John’s original posting. “the humidity in this room is steady at 30%.” Well, maybe six days a week ok? Remember this, I believe is also important, it is a “localized problem” particular to church rooms and school classrooms.
Tooner I am only theorizing here based on my own experience. I believe that new wood, yes, will pick up some moisture, but the change is not a great as an instrument that “has been in this environment “for some time.
I am theorizing that new felt is not dirty or full of anything, but will fill up quickly with whatever is presented to it, water, oils, airborne particles. Say it again? New wood will attract airborne contaminants less rapidly than new cloth. This could be why John is having sticking and the sticking is getting worse as the instrument is played. The instrument is new, the wood is new. The felt is new.
I am just saying in this particular situation moisture might be the culprit. Reasoning? 200 people walk into this room once a week. It will be interesting to see if this particular problem is noted in the heat of a Toronto summer. This is where John and the instrument reside.

Dan: I think we are mostly in agreement. I just wondered about the contaminants.

All: Speaking of temperature changing piano tunings, here's an experience I had once, for what its worth. An old upright in a small church. There was friction between the Pastor and congregation about whether the damp-chaser heating bar (low wattage, no tank) should be plugged in or not. The pastor didn't want to spent the money on the electric. I asked that it be plugged in for a week before I came and tuned it. I think it was early spring. There was no heat in the Church except on Sundays. So I tune the piano. Started with the fork and set a fresh temperment. The tenor section was pretty much on pitch. So I touch it up and move up the scale. By the time I got to the treble break, there was no real tuning left to do, only to touch up a unison here and there. Same with the bass. Same with taking out the temperment strip, just a little touch up. This piano hadn't been tuned in years. I had other work in the area, so I explained the situation and only charged half price. If they had listened to it after the DC had been plugged in a while, they probably would have cancelled the appointment. The reason this always has stayed in my mind is because the previous tuner and I must have set the exact same temperment at the same temperature and humidity.

Tooner
Quote,
The reason this always has stayed in my mind is because the previous tuner and I must have set the exact same temperament at the same temperature and humidity.
You got it. Hey I am not the “piano swami” or anything here, but sometimes these instruments have done things that I just could not believe was right…. But it was happening!! I didn’t have the time to figure it out totally, so I just took a lot of notes thinking that one day it will be of use.
Some of the stuff that went on regarding changes in particular situations I just had learned that this was not so. I don’t believe this anymore. What I do believe is that we all collectively have not had every situation documented in how wood and cloth and metal changes. I don’t believe there is “only one way” took look at the documentation from previous experience.

"I don’t believe there is “only one way” took look at the documentation from previous experience."

Can't agree more, Dan.

I notice that some old uprights will stay in tune very well. It could be that the sound board doesn't change much with humidity. But I think it is because the strings, not being very elastic, render easily and the tuning pins, not being very tight, settle easily. It would be hard not to tune a piano like this with stability, as long as you go over the treble break one last time (the downbearing is usually lacking there). Its hard to know what to think sometimes.

Hey Tooner,
Couple more things. I always try to tune the instrument in the same period of seasonal change each time.
Example: I tune at Whistler B.C. in the mountains, in January. All the heat is on and the instruments are flat. Mountain conditions. The rest of the year they will float up sharp, and by the next January are flat.
Example: Down at sea level September or May is best here. Do not know why and don’t care. It is just the way it is in some areas here. My own local study. Tooner take notes on every instrument you work on. This is a reference for your own “localized work”.
Cheers...gotta go.... I will post the one from the plateau..... found it...... interesting study that one.....

When this thread took a turn in this direction, I must admit I was leary of the temp changes having any real affect on the strings. I sat here reading, and really resisting this idea. However after reading Dan's comments and then suddenly remembering how my tuning forks react to room temperature, I must admit you guys have thrown some new light on this "subjeck."

I must agree now. Churches I tune in really come to mind now, I can see where it's the strings more than the wood. But tell me this.
Over a period of time, with the wood increasing in moisture in warmer weather, and then decreasing in colder weather, and the overall affect of the piano falling or rising in pitch, depending on the season....what happens with the strings gaining and then losing density. Do the strings by themselves, lend cause to this overall effect on pitch, not taking into account the wood?

Hope my comments make some degree of sense!

Ron: "....what happens with the strings gaining and then losing density." Uhm, if you mean the strings weigh more per cubic inch of material, I don't see how they could. Or do you mean something else?

Tooner, I suppose what I'm trying to convey is as Dan says metals either expand or contract when heated and cooled. We all know that to be true. What I was having a hard time with is the changes in a few degrees of temperature seem to me to be so neglegible, it would have no noticable effect on piano wire.

But then I began thinking about how tuning forks can change even with just a few degree of temp change, and I saw the light!!!!

Not sure how the wire is affected with regard to cubic weight other otherwise. Maybe we need someone with a better knowledge of physics to fully explain it.

First, I have to apologize for not having enough time at this very moment to read all of what was written above, as I have been surfing the internet in support of all of our claims and have just enough time to post this now and then I must leave for work. I will read more when I return. I have found nothing so far, that states strings or harps as the major cause of pitch or tuning changes. Ya, I feel like disagreeing a little bit today. :-)

This is one of the most interesting topics I have encountered in a while here.

From the PTG web site:

Why does a piano's pitch change?

Piano strings change pitch for two primary reasons: the initial stretching and settling of strings when the piano is new, and soundboard movement due to humidity variation. In the case of new pianos, the pitch drops quickly for the first couple of years as the new strings stretch and wood parts settle. It's very important to maintain any new piano at the proper pitch during this period, so the string tension and piano structure can reach a stable equilibrium. (Most piano manufacturers recommend three to four tunings the first year, and at least two per year after that.)

Aside from this initial settling, climate change is the main cause of pitch change. That's because the piano's main acoustical structure -- the soundboard -- is made of wood. While wooden soundboards produce a wonderful sound, they also react constantly to climate changes. As the relative humidity goes up, the soundboard swells, increasing its crowned shape and stretching the piano's strings to a higher pitch. Then during dry times the soundboard flattens out, lowering tension on the strings and causing the pitch to drop. The drop in the dry season tends to exceed the rise during humid times, so the net result is a drop in pitch each year that the piano isn't serviced.

Here's one from Braid Whites web site:
http://www.kenfoster.com/PianoTuning/Why.html

Quote: Why has my piano become out of tune?
Changes take place because your piano’s overall pitch is dependent upon changes in the relative humidity. In some temperate regions of the country, the relative humidity increases in the summer resulting in a higher moisture content in the soundboard and a higher string tension (pitch). In the winter, when heating systems dry the air, the soundboard loses moisture and contracts, causing the pitch to drop. The drop in the winter tends to exceed the rise in the summer, so the net result is a drop in pitch each year that the piano isn’t serviced. In some parts of the country where the cold season is exceptionally long, the annual drop can be considerable. In other parts, mild winters combined with dry summers cause the cycle to be reversed. You can, however, greatly increase the stability of your piano’s pitch by maintaining a relatively consistent humidity level in the room.

Here's another web site that basically says the same things as above...
http://www.serve.com/marbeth/tune_piano.html

--------------------

I have been unable to locate anywhere so far on the web that satisfies your claims.

Jerry G wrote:
Let me give one more thought. A grand, setting in the living room of a home. A heat vent directly on the floor blowing up at the sounding board. The heat turns on. The tuning changes rather quickly. The heat turns off, it reverses.

From what you two are saying, the heat is actually being pretty much ignored by the wood at this point but, is instead being transfered to the strings for them to expand and contract, right? If so, how is that not affecting the sounding board first?

I'll get into vapor pressure and why the process is slow to change the emc. Do you think it's the old wood that changes moisture fast or the fact that the coating (shellac or varnish)has gotten old and exposes the wood to the moisture?

Also, there is the expansion of the wood due to temperature. The wood can change temperature almost as fast as steel. Wood has a different expansion/contraction rate per degree of temp change than steel. Wood will tend to warp very easily when exposed to heat from one side because the surface differential will cause the side exposed to expand faster than the other side. Plastic really expands the most. Run hot water across the plastic cutting boards and watch it change shape.

So, what I was trying to say was;
That is a very good point Jerry.

The wood does react to the heat as well as the steel. This is different than humidity changes in the wood, which still happens slowly.

Thanks, Jerry.

Ron: Ok, I got it now. Not sure what I was thinking. Of course as a metal expands, its density goes down. Thats what expansion is. And as a string expands (gets longer) the tension drops and the pitch falls.

Kamin posted "A point you may want to consider also is that the iron frame expand with the warming, it takes a few hours but it will bring that pitch alost as high as it was befor the heat was turned on."

I suppose it would, but it would take an excellent design to compensate completely.

So I guess it would depend on how well the iron frame compensates, or over compensates, for the change in the strings. It would only make a difference if the environment's temperature changes as the humidity changes.

Makes me think of the inventor of the clock pendulum that had a grid of brass and iron. It compensated itself and did not get shorter when it got colder.

"I found it on the internet, so I know it is true..." :p
Just kidding, Jerry.

What they are talking about is longer range going out of tune, not the immediate effect of a temperature change.

When temperature changes suddenly, it takes a long time for wood to adjust its temperature, compared to metal. Wood is a pretty good temperature insulator, and steel is a good heat conductor.

On top of that, wood has an extremely low coefficient of heat expansion, and steel has a very high one.

So: steel strings will adjust to the change in temperature very quickly and will expand and contract a lot (relatively speaking) right away, detuning the instrument.

If you don't beleive that string expansion/contraction is significant, consider that to change the pitch of a string by one cent in tuning, the tuning pin only needs to be turned in the magnitude of one ten-thousandths of an inch.


This thread is moving off into several directions at one time. Perhaps it would it be sensible to split it up into different segments such as pinning procedures, tuning stability factors, physical characteristics of materials used in piano manufacturing, air contaminents, pinning problems with entry-level chinese pianos etc etc etc...

Hello everyone,

Earlier this week, I tuned a piano in a church. The temp started out at 48 degree's. The RH was 46 %. Little did I know at the time but, they had turned on the heat. When I finished tuning, my hygrometer read 68 degrees and 23 % RH.

Point? As heat enters or leaves a room, the RH changes. It has too.

I understand what you all are saying and now after pondering over this for the entire day and what I am about to say next, 2 paragraphs down that is, I have to agree with you but, humidity still must play a factor up here in the north as Dan states. We have very major humidity swings and many times, daily. Sometimes, it's 50% RH and the very next day it is down to 25 % as we crank up the heat again.

As I mentioned earlier, as the heat vent blows up hot air from the floor to the bottom of the piano, the only reason the sounding board will change is because the humidity level's within it, are also changing allowing the bridges etc., to expand or contract as the sounding board is expanding and contracting. That is a rapid change. Heat blowing directly onto wood, metal or strings will change them all to one degree or another.

But now, I must also concede and disgress at the same time as I just did my own little study.

On my last piano tuning today, which was Schimmel 5'10" grand, I did a couple of tests.

1. I tested what Kamin suggested. I used my ETD, set it with F-4 and then gently placed 2 fingers on the strings. Within 15 seconds, the pitch dropped by 2 cents. I must say that it surprised the hell out of me!

2. on F-3, I opened up my mouth and slowly blew hot air on the tuning pins and pin block area. I did this 3 times with 3 full breaths blowing very slowy out and very closely to them. Not even the slightest bit of change in either pitch or tuning occured.

3. When I did this same thing in a section of the piano where the harp covered the sounding board sufficiently roughly 8" away from the tuning pin area so that no air from my mouth could get at the sounding board at all, I repeated number 2 test by blowing slowly on it, same way as above, my hot air (which I seem to be full of today ) 3 more times and 3 full breaths. After the 3rd breath, (I'll bet you're happy that you aren't the piano huh!??) the pitch of the strings dropped by 5 cents!! Surprised the crap out of me again!

I also tested the F-2 bass strings by touching the copper the same way, with 2 fingers. After 15 seconds, it had only changed by 1 cent. Oh, and yes, every one of them went flat.

So, you guys are right! ittt feeeeeeeeeeeeelsss good huh?

So, I set myself up for the long line of the spanking machine. On second thought, bartender, give them a round on me please! Screw that spanking machine line!!!

So, I don't mind admitting that I'm wrong about the string, metal, harp bit at all.

But, I still say that humidity is a major factor in Michigan to some degree at the same time.

Jerry, I'm laughin my butt off!!!!! It do take a big man to admit someone else is right sometimes.
All I can say about your tests is...well I'm just glad you were blowing air through your mouth!!!!!!
hehehe. I bet Sam would have tested another way!!!!

Jerry
Allow me to correct a small but important mistake ok?
Quote “ Here's one from Braid Whites web site:
http://www.kenfoster.com/PianoTuning/Why.html “
This is not from Dr. William Braid White’s web site. This is not so good. This material is copyright; Dr. William Braid White’s Piano Tuning and Allied Arts first published in 1917- through the eighteenth printing in 1974. Pages 222-225.
The first four paragraphs are directly word for word. This section of DR. White’s book was copied and paid for with the authorization of the copyright holder for the Tuner’s Supply Company in Boston way back…….. I still have the original pamphlet from the ‘70’s.
While this information is correct, this site Jerry, is a private business site belonging to someone else. I am un-aware as to whether or not this person is related in any way or has permission to do this. Ouch!

Easy way to tell if someone is plagiarizing your site? Open up your web site and go to www. Copyscape.com It will tell you by doing a search, who is using the same grammer structure or sentence formations.

Shhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!

Thanks Ron. Well, at least I made you all think! :p