I've been an occasional visitor for a couple of years, and this is my first post. I bought a new 6-10 Heintzman grand (Chinese-made) for my Church. The reputable dealer has a large service department, and I visited with the technician who spent two full days preparing the piano, so I know how thorough he was. Since getting the piano delivered before Christmas. Since then the piano has had repeated action-related problems all related to stiffness. The damper bushings had to be eased with heat, which finally cured those problems. The rest of the felts have been soaked twice with Protec and the felts that touch the capstan surfaces coated with Teflon powder. Although there are no longer any sticking notes, the action is still noticeably uneven and gets significantly stiffer after about 30 minutes of playing. The humidity in the sanctuary is a steady 30%, the temperature varies between 19 and 21 degrees C. Is this normal? Do I have a problem piano? Any thoughts on what to expect when the tech runs out of Protec?

Hello Critic,
I can see that this is your first post, so welcome to the piano tech forum. A couple of comments that you have made in your post I have noted. #1 the humidity in the sanctuary is a steady 30%. Well I am not wanting to be too objective here, but I have had a good deal of experience with church instruments. How can the humidity remain at a steady 30% when every Sunday morning the sanctuary fills up with warm bodies that sweat and sing and, well, do a lot of other things? The moisture content in this room must skyrocket for the one day, due to several services. Then Monday morning, the instrument is all by itself for six days. Then, repeat this next week. What tells me that this is a moisture related problem is two things. One, your techie used heat to chase away the dampness in the damper guide rail? Or the damper levers? Not clear there. Secondly, when you play an instrument that has moisture related problems, too much friction is being created within the flange centre pins. Too much friction will create too much heat, and this will expand the felt bushing rapidly, and crush around the centre pin forcing it to slow, or stop moving completely. This is the resulting "stiffness" you are perceiving. The more you play the "stiffer" it will get. There is no mention of how long this instrument has been in the sanctuary, but I can tell you the first few months with some manufactured instruments can be a little problematic. No, you don't have a "problem piano" you are having problems "with" your piano. Interesting to note that the techie went over this instrument for two days previous to delivery. Problems like this I am certain would have been addressed at the shop. So question for you. Why do you think this instrument is giving problems now? Could it be that the enviroment in the sanctuary is different then the shop this instrument came from? Also, at the risk of sounding glib, when a technician runs out of a product he/she usually purchases more product. Sorry about that one. A discussion of Damp Chaser products might be a good starting point for discussion with the store you have purchased this instrument from.
Cheers...

Although I agree with the fact that all church pianos can really benefit from humidity control, I don't think that is the problem here. Almost every Chinese grand I have worked on has had these issues. Even the one that sits in a second home at 20% humidity and 7500 ft above sea level.

After talking to one of the techs from a Distributor, the best we could come up with was that it was an ISO problem. You see, the ISO certifacations require that specifications be kept within certain limits. For whatever reason, the Chinese are trying to make felt stay in too tight of specs. Combine that with "cost effective" felts and overly dense felts, and small changes in heat can cause binding.

Your piano is not more of a lemon than any other piano in its price range (and probably better prepped than the majority of entry level intruments). However, the bushings, both key and Damper rail, need to be eased more than normal or replaced.
If the feel becomes to sloppy after the easing, and I have found that stability in these instruments requires more free play than I like, you will need to replace felts. It come down to how much you want to put into this instrument. The Chinese pianos can be great deals, but they are still not there yet.

I was un-aware of the issue with cost effective felts installed in Chinese pianos Aaron, thanks for the additional input, and hello to you. I would have to agree with your sentiments on the small changes in heat causing binding. I was dismissing the small change in heat there... Critic, any of this info helpful?

Hi guys. Thanks a lot for the comments. I can appreciate the fluctuations in the sanctuary between weekdays and Sundays -- but if this were a significant factor, then few pianos would be stable, no? (The Heintzman replaced a 120-year-old Hardman grand that only had trouble staying in tune toward the end).
Will repeated applications of Protec shorten the life of the felt in any way?

Well, when you think about it pianos are not really stable.. they rise and fall according to atmospheric conditions. Half a degree in temp. or one point on the humidistat and there is change going on. As far as Protec goes, I will have to defer to Aaron, as this is a product that I do not use, Aaron, any help there for Critic on this one?

I'd probably disagree "just a bit" here

Yes, I too disagree somewhat with the half a degree in temp or one point in degree of humidity.

Disagreement is sometimes a good thing, and hello to you Larry. I am hopeful that you will expand on this statement.

I'll chime in. Humidity fluctuations in the piano are long range. The moisture enters and leaves the parts at a much slower rate than the heat. That means the daily small fluctuations have no or little bearing on the average.

Hello Ron and Larry, I have quickly gone back to a reference book, and yes, I mis-quoted from memory... Here is what I should have stated, and this is a direct quote " Every change of a degree in temperature, or of one-tenth of an inch in barometric pressure has its effect. Dr. William Braid White, Piano tuning and Allied Arts, page 223,last paragraph. My apologies for the misinformation Critic, hope I did not serve to confuse you there,.... Ron and Larry,can either of you two comment on Protec for Critic?

Small changes in temperature can change things quickly. Try measuring pitch on a string with an ETD, then breath on the string, the pitch will change measurably. I have never tried an experiment with humidity like that. However how much do those tiny changes mean to the average client.

In concert work the humidity of a snow melt off day (the highest humidity we normaly have here in Montana) can be enough to change a good regulation. I have found that these Chinese (is Heintzman made by Dongbay?) are very prone to this happening.

As for if Protek will harm the felt.

Anything we do will change it's character. Protek will make tight bushings tight and slick. Therefore it is a quick fix at best. I have found it only has a working life of between appointments, meaning I will be back to fix the same problem in 6 months.

I think the felt will last just as long since your humidity at 30% is not going to react with anything. Protek is designed to be mild on piano parts.

The right fix is still to ease the guide rail bushings, carefully, they are not glued in. Protek is just too temporary and hard to make consistant note to note. I use it for clients who just want to get by. I can lube in seconds.

I would not argue for a moment that small changes to the RH and to some degree temperature will cause changes to regulation and tuning stability.
However a half point of temp or a full degree of RH will not cause noticable difference in my opinion.

Regarding Protek, especially the Protek CLP I cannot give a strong enough recommendation for those who have never tried it. Though rather expensive, it is the best lube for center pins I have ever used. I recently encountered a small Whurlly console whose hammer flanges were virtually frozen. When the soft pedal was depressed, every hammer remained almost touching the strings. I figured as slow as they hammers were, CLP might free it up a little, but would not take care of the problem. I could see a re-pinning job in my future. However a couple of drops of CLP to each flange did the trick, and two weeks later the slowness had not returned. I swear I live and die by this stuff when it comes to flange problems.

Regarding CLP and felt or cloth, I think there are better lubes. Though I dont think it in any way damages or changes the consistency of felt/cloth when it dries. As already mentioned, it works best for flange center pins. In addition to the Wurlitzer mentioned above, my experience is it does indeed have a longer term effect than six months or so. In fact, a Baldwin with very slow hammers comes to mind, that I CLP'ed 4 years ago, and as of this past December there is no slowness. It diminishes and eliminates virtergis. It think that is the miracle behind Protek CLP.

thanks Aaron for the input on Protek. I was suspicious that it was a "bandaid fix". Also we are aware from reading the original post, that one application has resulted in the same problem re-appearing again, and your suggestion of re-felting might end up being the final solution for Critic.
Keith, hello to you, and thanks for chiming in... I would have to disagree somewhat with your statement regarding humidity, especially here where I am residing. This is a northern coastal boreal rainforest, and humidity is a big problem here... Also, where Critic is located, I am not sure if you are aware.. the Toronto area this year has been hit with some of the worst winter storms in its history, a ton of snow they are trampling through, and all those wet overcoats and boots in that sanctuary must be taken into account. Also Toronto is on the edge of the Great Lakes system. My presumption here is that the wood in this instrument is new and will not take much moisture nor give it away, not like the 120yr.old Hardman they disposed of, so where does the water go... perhaps into the feltwork? Maybe we could encourage Critic to get his/her tech to let us all know here what was found to be the culprit.
Cheers

Ron, thanks for the info on Protek.. I feel compelled to order this product and try it out.
Critic, I hope some of this dicussion has helped, or given you some insight as to what could be developing in your instrument.

Hydrostatic pressure does not discriminate between old wood or new.

Temperature differences, well, usually we are dealing with extremes, a church that turns the heat down 15 degrees and back up or the sun that has just come on, or off the piano.

It might be a good study to measure just exactly when and how much specific incremental temp effect the piano. What is the exact rate of change.

The heat used on the damper guide rails was, more than likely used to resize the holes. Felt "irons" very well and this type of an adjustment is one of the more stable.

Thanks Dan. Yes, it is rather pricy stuff, and there are better lubes for cloth, felt, knuckles, etc. But it beats any other center pin lube I have ever used. Go easy though; dont need but just a drop or two. Only in extreme cases do I go a little heavier.

Dampp Chaser might have the answer to that one Larry.

I agree on the Dampp Chaser when the room can't be controlled.

No, Larry, sorry, I wasn't clear enough. I meant that Dampp Chaser might have the stats about what you said about this" "It might be a good study to measure just exactly when and how much specific incremental temp effect the piano. What is the exact rate of change."

A Dampp Chaser isn't going to do much if anything for the action on a grand, unfortunately.

Is it possible that you're experiencing a key/hammer weight problem? Your tech already beat the friction problem to death six times, and that would go right along with the unevenness of the action. I can't say why it would get worse with playing though, unless it's the pianist getting more and more frustrated.

Sorry Jerry, I am reading too quickly.
They might. I'm a little curious to ask.


There are a range of challenges with Chinese actions. Only a thorough examination will tell that particular story.

As far as beating friction to death. It is well documented that some flange bushings tighten up with use. Every manufacturer of these parts has had to contend with that one.

The Chinese are just the latest.

Renner, Tokiwa and Abel have all been through this. I wish I had paid more attention to what their "solution" was at the manufacturing level.

Might be a good question to email them.

Larry, your comment re: " Hydrostatic pressure does not discriminate between old wood or new" I am wondering now if my mistaken quote earlier in this thread, has got us thinking of two separate things, that being humidity content in the air versus barometric pressure. I beleive there is a difference. Also, I have some interesting case study on this issue, when I worked under contract with six school districts in the local area here. I can research my old files and post, but this may result in some rather long postings and I am mindful of being new here, and do not have a desire to hijack this original thread onto another topic. Should I start another thread on this topic or continue? Hello also to Jerry Groot and Swallowpad, thanks for joining us.

Dan, Well, can you clarify your point?

I've had great success with Pro Tek as well, I found the effect generally to be permanent, the exception being pins with verdigris. My experience is pretty much that it either works or it doesn't. If two applications don't work, then the bushing is just too tight for lubrication to work and it needs to be physically eased. (shrinking, ironing, reaming, etc.)

Where I live, virtually all of the Kimball uprights (70s-80s) had sticky jacks, a single Pro Tek application has been a permanent fix. Prior to this those actions had to go into the shop and get a series of water/alcohol treatments.

It seems to me that flange pins will be sluggish for different reasons. Beside just being too tight, verdigris contamination; also I think either dirt or mold can make even dried out flanges sticky. Ron's story about the Wurlitzer reminds me of this, just a drop of the Pro Tek and they flop back as though it dissolved something in the bushing felt.

I don't think the Pro Tek is that expensive when weighed against the time it takes to water an action, wait for it do dry, retreat it, etc.

Wow. A huge thanks to all of you for providing such thoughtful replies. It will hopefully help me in my discussions with the tech. One more item: On the last visit, the tech noticed what he called a gooey substance on the capstan pins (the brass thingies that screw in to the keys -- I hope I've got the right term). He rubbed each one with Protec (as well as applying the Teflon powder to the felt that came in contact with this spot). Without a magnifying glass, I couldn't see the surface of each capstan clearly enough, but it certainly didn't feel smooth. To my fingertips, it felt pitted. Do you think the factory is trying to cut corners with a cheaper coating to keep the brass from oxidizing? (my father owned a fastener-manufacturing business, and I know that brass parts would get either an oil or light lacquer-type coating to keep the metal clean).
Anyone run across something like this before?

Absolutly. Some of the cheaper pianos they don't bother to clean the capstan before installing.
Quality brass is another issue.

Yes I do agree that the regulation can change far more rapidly than tuning. Felt is hydroscopic.

I have some thoughts on the parts used, but I have to run. Later