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I'm turning to you guys and gals, tuner-techs, hoping to hear your thoughts on what I'm experiencing with my piano!

I've had two different piano techs in so far to tune my piano. Tech #1 did the first couple of tunings. Tech #2 did all of the tunings after that for the last couple of years.

When Tech #1 did the first couple of tunings, I never noticed anything out of order. Everything seemed fine to me.

When Tech #2 started tuning my piano (I posted here about this a while ago) I began to notice when I play a very low bass note simultaneously with very high treble note, such as the final note ending a piece of music, the bass note sometimes makes me cringe - it sounds a bit flat - just barely enough to notice.

Also, after the first tuning by Tech #2, my piano sounded suddenly brighter in tonal quality, the difference was so noticeable, my husband and I wondered if the tech had juiced up the hammers with lacquer. But there's no way he did that.

We continued to hear brightiness and the last couple of times I've also noticed my piano is also starting to sound "glassy". I don't know how better to describe the tonal quality I'm hearing other than "glassy". Maybe some of you will know what I mean.

Well, my husband and I figured the piano is a couple of years old, the hammers were brand new when I bought it, it's "playing in", the hammers are getting impacted and the tonal quality is changing and getting brighter.

I figure maybe the two techs tune slightly differently - so I decided to experiment and go back to Tech #1, have him tune my piano and see if there's any difference in the bass notes sounding out of tune.

Yesterday Tech #1 tuned my piano. The first thing I am aware of, is completely unexpected - it sounds *very different* in tonal quality! The brightness and also the glassy sound I've been hearing - both are gone! It sounds overall more mellow - actually somewhat subdued - in comparison to before.

I am totally amazed. Do different kinds of tunings make the tonal quality brighter, "glassier" or more subdued? I never heard THAT before.

I haven't played enough yet to tell if the bass/treble issue is gone, I haven't noticed anything out of kilter yet. If that issue if "fixed", that means the type of tuning can affect how the bass and treble notes interplay with each other - whether they sound more or less in tune.

Thoughts on any of this?


Jeanne W

P.S. I'm trying to decide which sound I like better, it's a trade off. The brighter sound projects better and seems to make for a stronger treble, but the more mellow sound is more to my liking in terms of tonal quality. My initial reaction, is Tech #2's tuning results in a "clearer" more European tonal quality.

Hi Jeanne,

I'm just curious, did the most recent Tech (Tech #1) voice the hammers at all, or did he just tune the piano?

I didn't think that a tuning in and of itself could change the tone from bright to mellow, per-se.

Best regards,

Rickster

Hi, Rickster:

Tech #1 did not do any voicing. Just tuned the piano. He did do some extra work, though.

One note, Eb6, had developed a greater "impact" sound when I played it. Barely noticeable, but there. The tech said a couple of things could cause that, including if the hammer was loose. He didn't think it would be the hammer loose, though, because when that's the case, the unwanted sound is usually louder.

It turned out be a loose hammer, after all. He found 7 more loose hammers. My recollection is the notes were scattered between middle C up to the Eb6. My receipt says: Reglued 8 hammerheads to their shanks in upper register." Cost an extra $80.

Wala! Problem fixed.

Jeanne W

Tuning can definitely affect the perception of brightness. I recently tuned a piano for a special event. When I got to the locale, a sound company, I was told that the piano had been tuned the day before when it was delivered, and then again that morning. They complained that the piano was too big for the space, and too bright. I looked at it, tuned it properly, and afterwards was told that the piano sounded much better. I think these people, one of the best manufacturers of sound systems in the world, got an education that day. So did I!

Thanks for your reply BDB. You say you you "tuned it properly" which toned down the brightness. Can you elaborate on that? Were you able to determine how your tuning differed from the previous tuning? If so, what was it about the previous tuning that made it "improper" in your estimation?

Aside from the tonal/brightness issue, did the previous tuning sound "in" or "out of" tune to you?

Jeanne W

I can see where the tuning can change the tonal color of a piano. For example, I have read that you can get that twangy, honky-tonk sound by flattening the left most unison of the 2 and 3 string unisons ever so slightly. But to go from bright to mellow simply by tuning, (unless it is extremely out of tune to start with) seems like a stretch to me (no pun intended) .

On the other hand, it seems to me that having loose, out of alignment hammer heads could definitely cause that harsh brightness.

Best regards,

Rickster

Here's my guess -- one tech uses a different amount of stretch than the other. (This could be via using an ETD differently, using test notes differently, or just thinking differently about "how it sounds best.") This would result in differences in sound when notes at the extremes of the piano are played together, as Jeanne heard. It could also result in different partials being apparent to the listener. My humble opinion --

Loose hammers usually will show up as clicks before the alignment goes out enough to affect the tone.

In the case of the recent tuning, there were a number of octaves that were beating quite audibly when I checked the piano. This will in itself impart an edge to those octaves, and probably other intervals as well. That may sound bright, depending on the interval.

Of course, being very far out of tune makes a piano sour. It is difficult to describe exactly the changes, and as an experienced tech, I listen to these things in such a way that may be more precise than the terminology that we are using. I need to know whether what you call brightness is due to tuning or to something else. Doing the wrong thing leads to worse problems than doing nothing at all.

Aha! More is revealed! I see your point, BDB -- I wasn't even thinking of "so much stretch" that the octaves were into the sour range. And I agree, as a tech one's language and one's way of listening is not that of the usual customer.

The greater stretch, the brighter the treble. I will use less stretch for a bright piano in a live room, or the piano will sound too bright. A very slight detuning of unisons makes a difference too. Very clean unisons sound brighter than slightly loose ones. The room ambience adds to the equation as well. A loud piano gets softer when carpet, drapes and soft couches are installed.

I think people here are being pretty generous. It may be impertinent to suggest this, but it sounds to me like tech #1 is a more knowlegeable, experienced tuner than tech #2.

(Deleted Post: I misunderstood something and posted something that was just plain wrong.)

Jeanne W

Hello Jeanne,

Tuners are humans, the role of the tuner is :

1 to have the piano at pitch ( A=440 Hz or slightly above) being an accepted standard
2 to have the piano tuned meaning the notes are in tune one each other all along the sacle.
3
To "build tone", meaning that the way the 3 (or 2) strings of the unisson are tuned together, taking in account the tone projection, the speed of the attack stabilistaion, the roundness of the tone.

Different musicality from differnt tuners can bring differnt results for the last 2 points.

Hearing for a pure tone doex not mean you have the best tone for a particular piano in its particular room accoustic. It is not rare that tuners does not learn to build tone , but only to provide an accepteable tuning. In that regard, tuning for concert is a good school, as working for musicians or keen eared pianists like you.

There are many ways to describe the tuning of unissons, not very easy for me being French, but it is often possible to tweak an existing tuning and add some musicality only cbhnaging slighly the phase and phase opposal behavior of the strings , hence changing the global enveloppe of the tone.

Basically this is a touch question , then a listening questions. Many tuners listen too much within the instrument, and not enough in the tone projection.

I don't really get what you mean with "European tuning", I have find US instruments to have generally a straighter tone, with a lot of shine but a less lively curve, because power is most wanted sometime with juice indeed. all the power tend to straighten the tone if it is more than the piano can naturally deliver, and if you use most of the attack energy immediately (the note speaks very fast and immediately).

Slowing the stabilisation of the attack helps with tone projection at the expense of power.

A common "error" is also to tune the basses way low, it make it sound more "greazy" (and it is unavoideable on short grands and verticals) but the basses are then out of tune vs the medium and treble. The tuning method based on coincidence of partials without listening to the overall tone can lend to those results. A tuning may be checked musically, not only with tuning theory.

In that regard a tuner which is also a good musician will certainly tune better (while I see good concerts tuner that don't play really the piano, it is then a training question).

I hope those comments can help.

BTW I've benn tuning in concerts for a long time.
10 years ago, I changed the way I tune the unissons (and also my overall tuning approach,) after 15 years in the trade; my tunings where appreciated, no real complaints, but I fell that something was missing. The unissons where too bright and the tone not "open" enough, because was looking for a maximum power output. I had to change my way, not so difficult but one have to accept to change, and learn to listen differntly. Tuning is also way less tiring then !

A good tuning take in account the attack and hammer rebound sensation felt by the fingers, the tone projection in the room, avoid beats between strings, but manage the extinction curve shape of the tone by managing the very first miliseconds of tone. Ear/hand synchronisation + imaginatioon is the key.

Thanks, everyone, for the feedback, and a special thank you to you, Kamin, for your long and detailed reply.

Pianos are fascinating, there are so many variables to take into consideration. Seems to me a career as a piano tech can provide a life long quest in the pursuit of knowledge.

I thought I knew a little (very limited) about pianos, but this latest tuning and the replies I received here has taught me something new. I didn't expect tuning to have the ability to make a piano sound brighter or more mellow - now I know better!

!!!

Jeanne W

You should probably read the "Saving tuning, by a customer" thread. Quantifying your observation is what I was trying to accomplish.

Thanks for your feedback, Jeanne.

Makes me think of one of the most interesting comment that was made by a tuner to a customer ; he stated that he "tuned the piano to the room". As it looks a little like some "sexy talking" , the remark make sense, as this is reaaly a way of litening that can be sescribed like that.

The tone of the instrument when hearing it a 30 cm is not at all the same ase even 1 meter apart.

It does not suffice to "liten to the room" but it is indeed part of the tuning process, it guarantee that you are not "caught in the tone" and that your mind & ear have some "disatnce" from the stricly talking "tuning process".

Lot of "" !! . It is difficult to explain. I will make some recording when I'll have time. Listening only to the room can lend to beats in the unisson, so it is not the whole story.

I'll point something like "sympathic resonance" as being the key - for the high treble for instance, as the strings are always free to vibrate, tuning them to a good resonnance with the medium part is certainly adding a lot of light in the overall tuning.

My opinion is that the particular temperament a tuner puts on the piano has a drastic effect on the tone. I've had my Boston for about 10 years, and used about 3 different tuners in that time. I can very easily tell just from the sound which tuner tuned it.

The piano took on a very different character depending on who tuned it. I am talking tuning, not voicing.

I claim that I can tell if they used an Accu-tuner aid or tuned entirely aurally. The latter seems to give me better results. I am not a piano tech, put an amateur player who makes up for limited technique (can't play Czerny's Art of Velocity at Czerny's speed) by listening really hard to the sound blends in the harmonies of, say, Schumann, or Chopin. For that style of composition, non equal temperament works best. You need the sweet sounding thirds and fifths in keys like C G F and Bb. (Though with Chopin you are likely to need it in keys like B major or G# minor.) So a WT that is biased toward the keys of easy Shumann can really make those pieces sing in ways the standard ET fails to do.

On the other hand, if your tastes run more to jazz or even Gershwin and Ragtime, your ideal temperament would be different. ET may be more your thing since, unlike Chopin and Schumann, this style of music was composed when ET predominated and so it sounds more "right" in that temperament.

Tuning is full of tradeoffs. There is no right tuning. If you want to optimize one thing, you will de-optimize something else. It is a question of what is important to you.

I also think that stretch and other characteristics of the individual piano plays a part and the aural tuning is more likely to get this right. It turns out that "ideal" strings have a diameter of zero and all their vibrational energy comes from transverse waves moving along the length of the string. But real strings have some diameter and store energy in their rigidity, especially the short strings near the high end. So the actual harmonics generated by the strings are actually a bit sharp as compared to the ideal ratio's that theory says they ought to have. Add to this the fact that parts resonate and stings are not perfect in their manufacture, and grow less so as they age, the actual harmonics will differ from one piano to the next. But these variations from the ideal are audible variations! A good tuner who listens carefully and has a good deal of experience will naturally compensate for these things as a matter of course arriving at a good compromise.

I was recently shopping at the Steinway dealer and really did not care for the tuning on a new L's I was considering. The dealer offered to bring in my favorite turner and have him tune the piano more to my liking. I expect it could have made a significant difference. In the meantime, I had already purchased a much older B from a private party. I still expect to tweak it's temperament after I get it up to my apartment. Looking forward to it really. Part of the fun (and the pain) of owning a piano, is how much you can change the sound by doing simple things.

For more background, I would recommend Ross Duffin's, "How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony (and Why You Should Care)". He recounts an experiment in which measurements were taken of the actual tunings made by expert tuners. He discovered that tuners acknowledged as more highly skilled tended to vary measurably from the ET scale that they believed themselves to be tuning to.

Also, Chaun C. Chang's "Fundamentals of Piano Practice" has an insightful chapter on tuning and temperament in which he describes tuning procedures for some of the Well Temperaments and gives a physicist's view on tuning concepts such as stretch.

I found the title of this thread confusing.

"Different Kinds of Tunngs Can Affect Tonal Brightness?" - written as a statement, but with a "?" as the end punctuation.

Why not - Can different kinds of tunings affect tonal brightness? There you have a clear interrogative with the corresponding punctuation and the same number of words.

My answer to the question would be a qualified, yes.

Hi, David:

Regarding how I chose to title this thread, have you heard that song, the one that goes:

"Different strokes, for different folks" !!!???

Seriously, your point is well taken. I was trying to condense my question into a short title - I think your way is better - it's a clearer way to pose it.

Jeanne W

I wonder if we blind folded Mark if he could tell the difference then? I'm just kidding with you Mark.. As I read your post, I couldn't help but think of the Pepsi Coke test.

Seriously, I know of very few technicians that tune exactly alike. Some are close but most have a little different form, technique and preference for stretching. One tech might like faster progressing 3rds where the next tech might like it totally the opposite.

One complaint I get is if I take the piano apart (Diane are you reading?) without scratching it, they quite often say, gee, nobody else has ever taken anything apart before! When I look at whose tuning is marked inside of the piano, that reveals a lot to me because we get to know who we like and dislike as technicians too.