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#621137 - 04/30/08 09:35 PM Re: Different Kinds of Tunngs Can Affect Tonal Brightness?
Jeff A. Smith, RPT Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/01/03
Posts: 476
Loc: Angola, Indiana USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Bill Bremmer RPT:
Shortly after that, I began to explore non-equal temperaments. I found a way to really combine having the desirable contracted harmony where it should be and let the tight sounding RBIs fall where they should be among the pure 5ths. To me, that kind of compromise results in a far more pleasing piano all around as opposed to applying one rigid rule across the board.

I encourage you to explore, nevertheless, Lucas Mason's book and whatever Isaac comes up with that I can translate from the French but please do keep in mind what I said. I've been there, done that and found something better. That was over 20 years ago now and I personally would never choose to tune a piano the way that Lucas Mason nor Bernhard Stopper suggest. [/b]
Thanks for your candid thoughts, Bill.

I've only tried to aurally tune an unequal temperament once. It was one of your EBVT sequences. I liked the way the center sounded pretty well, but I seemed to lose control of the treble octaves. Part of the problem -- as I saw it -- was I didn't have any checks accurate enough to take the place of what I do when tuning the treble in ET -- monitor evenly progressing beat rates of chromatically-ascending RBI's. I know it's just as important in treble tuning to see how the note being tuned lines up with SBI's below it like octaves, double and triple octaves, fifths, twelfths and nineteenths. But I guess for me the chromatically-ascending RBI tests are something I rely on pretty heavily to maintain consistency. I don't currently see how they can be applied to unequal temperaments, or how something similar can take their place.

I'm interested in learning how to aurally tune unequal temperaments, but unless I get a handle on this problem I'm not inclined to spend much time with it. Using an ETD would solve this problem, I'm sure.

Any thoughts? (I know this is way off-topic, but by now we all are anyway.)

Jeff
_________________________
Jeff A. Smith
Registered Piano Technician
Indiana, USA

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#621138 - 05/06/08 11:18 PM Re: Different Kinds of Tunngs Can Affect Tonal Brightness?
Gadzar Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 2322
Loc: Mexico City
Maybe the book of Owen Jorgensen?
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#621139 - 05/07/08 08:10 AM Re: Different Kinds of Tunngs Can Affect Tonal Brightness?
UprightTooner Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/21/07
Posts: 839
Loc: North-East US
Jeff:

I was hoping Bill would respond to your post.

Although I’ve never intentionally tuned other than ET ( :rolleyes: ) , I’ve thought along the same lines as you are. How do you check your treble octaves with RBI progressions when tuning UT? The only answers I can think of are either: don’t, instead rely solely on octave checks; or be so intimate with the non-ET temperament that you know what the RBI progression should sound like.
_________________________
Part-time tuner

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#621140 - 05/08/08 05:02 AM Re: Different Kinds of Tunngs Can Affect Tonal Brightness?
Blackheath Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/29/08
Posts: 6
Loc: London UK
back to the original question. Do this simple experiment, it only takes a minute. Take just one note on a piano that has not been recently tuned and tune it at the pitch you find it! that's all,.. just reset the tuning pins. Now listen to how it compares with its neighboring notes. If you are not convinced, take a weaker or duller note in the middle register (there's always one) and reset the pins on that one and lend an ear to how it compares. Then, and only then, go have a cup of tea.
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#621141 - 05/08/08 03:02 PM Re: Different Kinds of Tunngs Can Affect Tonal Brightness?
Olek Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 9230
Loc: France
 Quote:
Originally posted by Blackheath:
back to the original question. Do this simple experiment, it only takes a minute. Take just one note on a piano that has not been recently tuned and tune it at the pitch you find it! that's all,.. just reset the tuning pins. Now listen to how it compares with its neighboring notes. If you are not convinced, take a weaker or duller note in the middle register (there's always one) and reset the pins on that one and lend an ear to how it compares. Then, and only then, go have a cup of tea. [/b]
Even simpler, move a little a string, with a pencil, pushing on it near the agrafe or capo d'astro (the string does not really move, but is disturbed).

Listen if the tone differs

Same brushing the strings with a brass rod (always near the termination)

Anything done will change the tone.
_________________________
Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!

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#621142 - 05/09/08 03:34 AM Re: Different Kinds of Tunngs Can Affect Tonal Brightness?
Blackheath Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/29/08
Posts: 6
Loc: London UK
Yes, my point exactly, Kamin. I was respecting the original questioner and confining my thoughts to the effects on tone of tuning only in the generally accepted sense of the term.
These changes in tone are often dramatic and only last a few days, even moving only one string has its effect, as will playing one note quite loudly on a piano that has not been played heavily recently.
The change is towards more power, depth of tone and brilliance of attack. I have, so far, not been able to reduce any of these by simply tuning. Any suggestions? other than perhaps another cup of tea.
_________________________
professional tuner-tech

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#621143 - 05/09/08 04:51 AM Re: Different Kinds of Tunngs Can Affect Tonal Brightness?
Olek Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 9230
Loc: France
Blackhealth ,

That may be part of the explanation why some pianists notice when somebody played their piano


yes the cup of tea seem the good answer !

To be taken with moderation ! That recall me in Normandy 20 years ago if in a pub you wanted a coffee without the little glass of apple alcohol, ("calva") you had to tell so, so you ordered : "a coffe "without". (opposed to the "normal coffee)

But it was raining all day long, no climatic changes yet , I where young and cute !
_________________________
Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!

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