I'm contemplating putting a new set of hammers on my grand and would like to have tech opinions as to the pluses and minuses for the Ronsen (which seems to be highly recommended) and the Isaac (also highly touted) hammers. There is a price difference: $200 base price for Ronsens and $350 for Isaacs tho I suspect the Isaac price is Canadian so it would be somewhat less in US dollars.

Thanks for any enlightenment.

I've gone through 4 sets of hammers on my S&S B. I had Isaac hammers before my current set which are Abel. I was very dissappointed in the Isaacs. Several of the felts came unglued from the moldings after a couple of months. Plus I didn't like the way they sounded. They need considerable juicing IMO and they never could get the right voice. If you like a soft sounding piano, maybe they'll do, but they aren't cheap and they look like they were made in someone's garage. Maybe Ari does make them in his garage. They are rather crude looking. I have no experience with the Ronsens.

Thanks for that information about the Isaac hammers. The site seems to tout them as the very finest available with no voicing needed and settling in after about 3 hours of playing! If they fall apart--as you state--then the life of them must be very short which is opposite of the site statement that they last longer than other hammers because of their resilience. Hm . . .I wonder if other Isaac users have had the same experience. It would be good to hear from Ronsen users too.

I'm having M&H hammers re-installed on my BB after an idiot put S&S hammers on it throwing everything out of kilter. These hammers are for another grand I have and it's time they were replaced too.

Thanks for your input.

Ralph

Issac's hammers are all over the map, regarding density. If you're looking for new hammers, Ronsens offer good consistency and stability. They don't take as long to voice as Steinway or Renner, and are a good choice for most older American pianos.

Curry,

Just out of curiousity, do you prefer the wurzen Ronsens or the American Felt?

Renner Wurzen comes first. Ronsen second.

Curry, your recommendation would be to forget considering Isaacs and go with Ronsen? They are for an Horugel grand (1986) which is a Korean piano I use for the students. I think the upper class competition for hammers is between Renner blues and Abel. Is that right?

I'd go with Abels. They're more suited to that piano's scale.

Curry, isn't it true that there are Abels and there are Abels - I'm just using Abel as an example. On my last piano, the Renners that were destroyed by a RPT (yes, that means nothing), with accolades up the wazoo, were replaced with Abels. The piano sounded completely different - much darker and less powerful. The new tech that installed the Abels told me that the Abels he was putting in most closely matched the Renners. Perhaps he was right, but it certainly didn't sound that way.

Derick

Derrick, it is true. Abel makes many different hammers. They also make custom hammers to the specs of different piano supply houses. all of these hammers have different specs and produce differing tonal outcomes.

I ended up using Abel Encore hammers of which I had several options. Mine don't have any underfelt above note 64 giving me the power in the upper treble that I wanted. Abel also makes an Encore Performance hammer which is impregnated with hardener. That's a very powerful hammer and probably too much for a home piano. You can also get Encore lites which are lighter in weight. Abel also makes an Abel Select which I know nothing about. If you're interested in Abels, call Wally Brooks

http://mmd.foxtail.com/Archives/Digests/199703/1997.03.04.11.html

I love my hammers. They need very little in the way of voicing.

I will add my 2 cents for the sake if the Isaac hammer. If anyone has not followed the thread by Del Fandrich about dynamic range I suggest reading it. Ari's hammers have the qualities that Del talks about. Resiliance, cold press etc. They are made soft for a reason and some tech's do not like to start with hammers that need to be voiced up. However, Ari's concept is that starting with a hard hammer and voicing it down is like putting the cart before the horse. It is much easier to voice up from too soft. There is a Yamaha CF at the local university that has a set of Isaac's that are 22 years old and still have as much felt remaining as some new sets. The piano is used daily. Voicing it requires minimal effort as the hammers still retain their resiliance. It was displayed at the 2005 Cal State Convention.

I agree with scutch. My mentor Dale Erwin prefers Ronsens with the AA Wurzen felt. It you check the latest on the PTG list, the Ronsen AAs are getting rave reviews. They need very little lacquer, mostly as break in juice so the pianst doesn't have to play them for a year before they devlop to their full potential. The Renners are a different animal and require a lot of needling to achieve the same result. Then they continue to need voicing to keep them soft. You will never need to needle a Ronsen hammer. If you want more brightness you stiffen the spring with lacquer. You can still wash the lacquer out a year later with some acetone. Most of the work with the Ronsens comes in the shaping. The old Steinway shape of the 1920's, the small end of an egg, will give the brightness needed. I'm putting a set on a Yamaha S400B right now. Tomorrow I'll get to hear them. This lady wants mellow. The ones I took off were so hard that you couldn't put a needle in more than 3 mm.
Del and Dale are on the same page when it comes to tonal qualities.

kpiano

I had Wally Brooks send me 6 sample hammers to try. Three were the regular Encore and three of the Performance hammer. One for each the bass, tenor and treble. Maybe your tech could get Ronsen and Isaac to do the same for you to try on your piano.

That's an idea. Sally Phillips, knowledgeable tech for C. Bechstein, thought the Ronsen would be best suited for this piano. After your experience with the Isaacs, I think I had best steer clear of them.

Curry, last question. Do Ronson, Isaac, Renner, etc... make different hammers similar to the way Abel makes different hammers?

Thanks,
Derick

Ronson makes a few different types of hammer heads with different mouldings and felt types. Issac's is a small operation. I don't know of all his products. As you may know, Renner is a very large operation. Their literature states that they make or can make over 250 different types of hammerheads. The choices range from the wood of the hammer moulding, to the type of felt used, to the length, size and hardness of the hammerhead.
Mind you, this has nothing to do with Renner USA which only carries the Premium Blue hammers as used in M&H and Estonia.
Our Bösendorfer's use Renner hammers made from an excellent grade of Würzen felt to Bösendorfer's specifications.

I'll jump into this thread and offer up a positive review of Ronsen hammers.

I have had them on my Mason AA (1919, new action, board, keyboard, strings, finish, yada, yada). for about 4 years. They have been amazingly consistent in terms of tone, only recently needing any voicing. They are quite easy to work with. The ones I have were made with Abel felt, and I don't think Ronsen makes them anymore.

I am not a big fan of Renner blues. I think they are good enough hammers, but the hardness of the tone doesn't appeal to me. I'd like to see the new Masons with a Wurzen Renner hammer, or Ronsens. I think the hardness of the hammer takes away much of that visceral quality that envelops the player when playing an older M and H.

Though I prefer Ronsens, I also like the Abels that I've experienced. They are a bit more pliable than the Renners, and less likely to eat needles during a voicing session.

ON a HOrugel??? I'd go as cheap as possible.

And, Dave, what is 'cheap as possible?' Ronsen's? Schaff? Others?

Good question...sorry I can't offer a definitive answer here. The less expensive Ronsen, Imadegawa, Schaff, and Abels seem to be within 40-50 dollars of each other (tech cost).

You want something that sounds decent enough, but the subtleties that a good hammer might bring out in a top quality instrument might elude your Horugel (no offense on this one...the piano sounds like it serves its purpose). I'd probably go with a hammer of the hardness that the Horugel came with and voice it appropriately.

I think that's good advice. I'd bet the Isaacs would be the most expensive option. I paid $450 for a set of hammers which is about 25% more than others I've bought.

Yes, I do want something that will improve the tone quality/response. It sounds ok but nothing like the Estonia or M&H. It does work well with the students as I don't let them play the M&H but I might occasionally let them play the Estonia. So far I'm leaning toward the Ronsens since the negative post by Ralph about his experience with the Isaacs is discouraging. The Estonia has the Renner which is a nice sound. One tech was going to put the Abel Selects on the M&H but since he checked it out last June and I've had no action taken to do anything I've sent it to Atlanta for the work. The Horugel is more of an afterthought and can use some tonal improvement.

Curry, thanks for your response.

Derick

Cheap is what I just put on. I just finished hammer string mating, reg and such with these Ronsen AA Wurzen felt hammers and they are perfect. No lacquer no needles. Just shaping. At first I thought they might be too bright for this ladies sensitive ears but no, she didn't cringe at each note like she did with the old hammers. These hammers have POWER without overload. Sustain is beautiful. Just the right amount of sizzle. It saved me a day of voicing. Now that's cheap.
I love the sound of these hammers. Ronsen has hit the magic formula of felt type and press.

I recommend trying them.

kpiano

Hammer selection can drive you nuts! The Ronsens do get rave reviews on the PTG forum. After going full circle, I prefer a Wurzen hammer rather than a cold pressed hammer requiring lacquer. Not that I don't like the sound of an expertly voiced lacquer hammer, but good luck getting it that way and then keeping it that way. The Steinway C&A pianos sound great, but they get constant attention and worked on more than they get played. Lacquered hammer change over time and humidity, quite a bit actually. I'm now with the European school of thought when it comes to hammers.

I'm also not a great fan of Renner Blues. Right now I'm having a love affair with my Abels. Ronsens would have been my next adventure had the Abels not worked out so well.

You didn't read what I said. This is a cold pressed hammer, Wurzen "AA" felt, that didn't require any lacquer at all. The stiffness of the hammer was so right it would be stupid to put lacquer on them. If for some reason the pianist wants a brighter sound, a little juice on the strike point, 2 or 3 drops, would be all that is required until the hammer works it self in.. The Europeans haven't seen a hammer like this. I've watched and listened to Mr Erwin voice many sets of Ronsen and Steinway hammers and none have sounded like these "AA's". Read carfully, notice I said "AAs". It's a different felt. They are different from any other hammer I have heard from Ronsen. The Europeans might change their mind if they had ever had a hammer like this to work with. Do you think they are too snobby and set in their ways to try a set? Probably so.....

kpiano

So people just din't know what

I wasn't really responding to your post, but rather just expressing my thoughts. Many people believe a cold pressed hammer is superior to one made with more heat. Even cold pressed hammers use some heat in order to cure the glue, but excessive heat (whatever that may be) is thought to damage the felt. I've never been a big fan of Renner Blues, a "hot" hammer, and maybe it has something to do with the amount of heat used. On the other hand I also think it's very difficult to properly voice a hammer with juice. The Wurzen Ronsens have gotten great reviews just like the one you give in the above post. It was was either the Abels or Ronsen for me and I went with the Abels. It would be hard for me to be much happier than I am, but if I wasn't, the Ronsens would have been my next choice.

I thought Abel Encores have VFG felt, you seem to suggest they have Wurzen ?

I remember you also tried the Wurzen Hamburg Steinway hammer.
It seems logical if the Encores also have Wurzen felt the sound of these hammers have similarities in sound character, correct ?

My own very vague impression about differences between Abel VFG and Renner Wurzen ( let's say in both cases their best quality types (which ones ?, no idea !) ) is that the VFG are quieter and more subtle perhaps and the Wurzen more exited, full and round.

I honestly don't know which felt Abels use, but you're probably right. I made an incorrect generalization that harder pressed hammers (aka European hammers) are made from Wurzen and softer hammers needing lacquer are not. That's just not right.

I did have a set of Hamburg hammers and they are very good, but the bass was surprisingly weak. Believe it or not, they need a lot of chemical hardener. I like the Abels better for the tone and the weight of the hammer. It gives me a quick a light action. The tone is extremely well balanced throughout the keyboard. The hamburg hammers are very good, but they're quite a bit wider than the American Steinway hammers and it was a tight fit in my B. I did like the American S&S hammers, but the tone changed a lot with temperature and humidity. It was also hard to get the hammers uniform. There were spots in the keyboard that never sounded right with those hammers. They got a little too noisy.

I've decided to order the Ronsens with Wurzen felt--or the best they make--and hope the favorable comments posted on Piano Forums will be evident after they're installed. Wish me luck!!