I'm contemplating putting a new set of hammers on my grand and would like to have tech opinions as to the pluses and minuses for the Ronsen (which seems to be highly recommended) and the Isaac (also highly touted) hammers. There is a price difference: $200 base price for Ronsens and $350 for Isaacs tho I suspect the Isaac price is Canadian so it would be somewhat less in US dollars.

Thanks for any enlightenment.

I've gone through 4 sets of hammers on my S&S B. I had Isaac hammers before my current set which are Abel. I was very dissappointed in the Isaacs. Several of the felts came unglued from the moldings after a couple of months. Plus I didn't like the way they sounded. They need considerable juicing IMO and they never could get the right voice. If you like a soft sounding piano, maybe they'll do, but they aren't cheap and they look like they were made in someone's garage. Maybe Ari does make them in his garage. They are rather crude looking. I have no experience with the Ronsens.

Thanks for that information about the Isaac hammers. The site seems to tout them as the very finest available with no voicing needed and settling in after about 3 hours of playing! If they fall apart--as you state--then the life of them must be very short which is opposite of the site statement that they last longer than other hammers because of their resilience. Hm . . .I wonder if other Isaac users have had the same experience. It would be good to hear from Ronsen users too.

I'm having M&H hammers re-installed on my BB after an idiot put S&S hammers on it throwing everything out of kilter. These hammers are for another grand I have and it's time they were replaced too.

Thanks for your input.

Ralph

Issac's hammers are all over the map, regarding density. If you're looking for new hammers, Ronsens offer good consistency and stability. They don't take as long to voice as Steinway or Renner, and are a good choice for most older American pianos.

Curry,

Just out of curiousity, do you prefer the wurzen Ronsens or the American Felt?

Renner Wurzen comes first. Ronsen second.

Curry, your recommendation would be to forget considering Isaacs and go with Ronsen? They are for an Horugel grand (1986) which is a Korean piano I use for the students. I think the upper class competition for hammers is between Renner blues and Abel. Is that right?

I'd go with Abels. They're more suited to that piano's scale.

Curry, isn't it true that there are Abels and there are Abels - I'm just using Abel as an example. On my last piano, the Renners that were destroyed by a RPT (yes, that means nothing), with accolades up the wazoo, were replaced with Abels. The piano sounded completely different - much darker and less powerful. The new tech that installed the Abels told me that the Abels he was putting in most closely matched the Renners. Perhaps he was right, but it certainly didn't sound that way.

Derick

Derrick, it is true. Abel makes many different hammers. They also make custom hammers to the specs of different piano supply houses. all of these hammers have different specs and produce differing tonal outcomes.

I ended up using Abel Encore hammers of which I had several options. Mine don't have any underfelt above note 64 giving me the power in the upper treble that I wanted. Abel also makes an Encore Performance hammer which is impregnated with hardener. That's a very powerful hammer and probably too much for a home piano. You can also get Encore lites which are lighter in weight. Abel also makes an Abel Select which I know nothing about. If you're interested in Abels, call Wally Brooks

http://mmd.foxtail.com/Archives/Digests/199703/1997.03.04.11.html

I love my hammers. They need very little in the way of voicing.

I will add my 2 cents for the sake if the Isaac hammer. If anyone has not followed the thread by Del Fandrich about dynamic range I suggest reading it. Ari's hammers have the qualities that Del talks about. Resiliance, cold press etc. They are made soft for a reason and some tech's do not like to start with hammers that need to be voiced up. However, Ari's concept is that starting with a hard hammer and voicing it down is like putting the cart before the horse. It is much easier to voice up from too soft. There is a Yamaha CF at the local university that has a set of Isaac's that are 22 years old and still have as much felt remaining as some new sets. The piano is used daily. Voicing it requires minimal effort as the hammers still retain their resiliance. It was displayed at the 2005 Cal State Convention.

I agree with scutch. My mentor Dale Erwin prefers Ronsens with the AA Wurzen felt. It you check the latest on the PTG list, the Ronsen AAs are getting rave reviews. They need very little lacquer, mostly as break in juice so the pianst doesn't have to play them for a year before they devlop to their full potential. The Renners are a different animal and require a lot of needling to achieve the same result. Then they continue to need voicing to keep them soft. You will never need to needle a Ronsen hammer. If you want more brightness you stiffen the spring with lacquer. You can still wash the lacquer out a year later with some acetone. Most of the work with the Ronsens comes in the shaping. The old Steinway shape of the 1920's, the small end of an egg, will give the brightness needed. I'm putting a set on a Yamaha S400B right now. Tomorrow I'll get to hear them. This lady wants mellow. The ones I took off were so hard that you couldn't put a needle in more than 3 mm.
Del and Dale are on the same page when it comes to tonal qualities.

kpiano

I had Wally Brooks send me 6 sample hammers to try. Three were the regular Encore and three of the Performance hammer. One for each the bass, tenor and treble. Maybe your tech could get Ronsen and Isaac to do the same for you to try on your piano.

That's an idea. Sally Phillips, knowledgeable tech for C. Bechstein, thought the Ronsen would be best suited for this piano. After your experience with the Isaacs, I think I had best steer clear of them.

Curry, last question. Do Ronson, Isaac, Renner, etc... make different hammers similar to the way Abel makes different hammers?

Thanks,
Derick

Ronson makes a few different types of hammer heads with different mouldings and felt types. Issac's is a small operation. I don't know of all his products. As you may know, Renner is a very large operation. Their literature states that they make or can make over 250 different types of hammerheads. The choices range from the wood of the hammer moulding, to the type of felt used, to the length, size and hardness of the hammerhead.
Mind you, this has nothing to do with Renner USA which only carries the Premium Blue hammers as used in M&H and Estonia.
Our Bösendorfer's use Renner hammers made from an excellent grade of Würzen felt to Bösendorfer's specifications.

I'll jump into this thread and offer up a positive review of Ronsen hammers.

I have had them on my Mason AA (1919, new action, board, keyboard, strings, finish, yada, yada). for about 4 years. They have been amazingly consistent in terms of tone, only recently needing any voicing. They are quite easy to work with. The ones I have were made with Abel felt, and I don't think Ronsen makes them anymore.

I am not a big fan of Renner blues. I think they are good enough hammers, but the hardness of the tone doesn't appeal to me. I'd like to see the new Masons with a Wurzen Renner hammer, or Ronsens. I think the hardness of the hammer takes away much of that visceral quality that envelops the player when playing an older M and H.

Though I prefer Ronsens, I also like the Abels that I've experienced. They are a bit more pliable than the Renners, and less likely to eat needles during a voicing session.

ON a HOrugel??? I'd go as cheap as possible.

And, Dave, what is 'cheap as possible?' Ronsen's? Schaff? Others?

Good question...sorry I can't offer a definitive answer here. The less expensive Ronsen, Imadegawa, Schaff, and Abels seem to be within 40-50 dollars of each other (tech cost).

You want something that sounds decent enough, but the subtleties that a good hammer might bring out in a top quality instrument might elude your Horugel (no offense on this one...the piano sounds like it serves its purpose). I'd probably go with a hammer of the hardness that the Horugel came with and voice it appropriately.

I think that's good advice. I'd bet the Isaacs would be the most expensive option. I paid $450 for a set of hammers which is about 25% more than others I've bought.

Yes, I do want something that will improve the tone quality/response. It sounds ok but nothing like the Estonia or M&H. It does work well with the students as I don't let them play the M&H but I might occasionally let them play the Estonia. So far I'm leaning toward the Ronsens since the negative post by Ralph about his experience with the Isaacs is discouraging. The Estonia has the Renner which is a nice sound. One tech was going to put the Abel Selects on the M&H but since he checked it out last June and I've had no action taken to do anything I've sent it to Atlanta for the work. The Horugel is more of an afterthought and can use some tonal improvement.

Curry, thanks for your response.

Derick

Cheap is what I just put on. I just finished hammer string mating, reg and such with these Ronsen AA Wurzen felt hammers and they are perfect. No lacquer no needles. Just shaping. At first I thought they might be too bright for this ladies sensitive ears but no, she didn't cringe at each note like she did with the old hammers. These hammers have POWER without overload. Sustain is beautiful. Just the right amount of sizzle. It saved me a day of voicing. Now that's cheap.
I love the sound of these hammers. Ronsen has hit the magic formula of felt type and press.

I recommend trying them.

kpiano

Hammer selection can drive you nuts! The Ronsens do get rave reviews on the PTG forum. After going full circle, I prefer a Wurzen hammer rather than a cold pressed hammer requiring lacquer. Not that I don't like the sound of an expertly voiced lacquer hammer, but good luck getting it that way and then keeping it that way. The Steinway C&A pianos sound great, but they get constant attention and worked on more than they get played. Lacquered hammer change over time and humidity, quite a bit actually. I'm now with the European school of thought when it comes to hammers.

I'm also not a great fan of Renner Blues. Right now I'm having a love affair with my Abels. Ronsens would have been my next adventure had the Abels not worked out so well.

You didn't read what I said. This is a cold pressed hammer, Wurzen "AA" felt, that didn't require any lacquer at all. The stiffness of the hammer was so right it would be stupid to put lacquer on them. If for some reason the pianist wants a brighter sound, a little juice on the strike point, 2 or 3 drops, would be all that is required until the hammer works it self in.. The Europeans haven't seen a hammer like this. I've watched and listened to Mr Erwin voice many sets of Ronsen and Steinway hammers and none have sounded like these "AA's". Read carfully, notice I said "AAs". It's a different felt. They are different from any other hammer I have heard from Ronsen. The Europeans might change their mind if they had ever had a hammer like this to work with. Do you think they are too snobby and set in their ways to try a set? Probably so.....

kpiano

So people just din't know what

I wasn't really responding to your post, but rather just expressing my thoughts. Many people believe a cold pressed hammer is superior to one made with more heat. Even cold pressed hammers use some heat in order to cure the glue, but excessive heat (whatever that may be) is thought to damage the felt. I've never been a big fan of Renner Blues, a "hot" hammer, and maybe it has something to do with the amount of heat used. On the other hand I also think it's very difficult to properly voice a hammer with juice. The Wurzen Ronsens have gotten great reviews just like the one you give in the above post. It was was either the Abels or Ronsen for me and I went with the Abels. It would be hard for me to be much happier than I am, but if I wasn't, the Ronsens would have been my next choice.

I thought Abel Encores have VFG felt, you seem to suggest they have Wurzen ?

I remember you also tried the Wurzen Hamburg Steinway hammer.
It seems logical if the Encores also have Wurzen felt the sound of these hammers have similarities in sound character, correct ?

My own very vague impression about differences between Abel VFG and Renner Wurzen ( let's say in both cases their best quality types (which ones ?, no idea !) ) is that the VFG are quieter and more subtle perhaps and the Wurzen more exited, full and round.

I honestly don't know which felt Abels use, but you're probably right. I made an incorrect generalization that harder pressed hammers (aka European hammers) are made from Wurzen and softer hammers needing lacquer are not. That's just not right.

I did have a set of Hamburg hammers and they are very good, but the bass was surprisingly weak. Believe it or not, they need a lot of chemical hardener. I like the Abels better for the tone and the weight of the hammer. It gives me a quick a light action. The tone is extremely well balanced throughout the keyboard. The hamburg hammers are very good, but they're quite a bit wider than the American Steinway hammers and it was a tight fit in my B. I did like the American S&S hammers, but the tone changed a lot with temperature and humidity. It was also hard to get the hammers uniform. There were spots in the keyboard that never sounded right with those hammers. They got a little too noisy.

I've decided to order the Ronsens with Wurzen felt--or the best they make--and hope the favorable comments posted on Piano Forums will be evident after they're installed. Wish me luck!!

Ralph,

Good to see the reviews about the Encore hammers confirmed.

Varcon,

Of course.

Thanks, Otherside! I'm putting the order in tomorrow. I have to send the shanks and flanges as well since they are NOT familiar with this brand of piano (Horugel) so I have to pull the action, pack them, and get them on the way. I'll post the results once they're installed.

The hammers (guide hammers) have been sent but I was emailed that he is attending the PTG convention and won't get to my order until after his return. Well, that's life!

Hammers arrived last week and tech is to bring it back tomorrow with new hammers installed. He'll make some adjustments and we'll see if the Ronsen's make a noticeable improvement! If the tech does his work right, then it should be good. I'll know tomorrow.

I've been waiting for this to resurface. Can't wait to hear the results.

Hammers are back (action) and it does have a much better sound except the tech isn't that competent so I have to do some aligning and other stuff before giving final results. Why, oh why, is it so hard to get good work!

My few cents...

I have a M&H A from the 30's. The hammers are pretty well cooked after multiple sandings, so I've been thinking about replacements for a while. First of all, without justifying myself, since it will start a religious war, I don't want to lacquer a hammer. I'd prefer a hard hammer to voice down, that is consistently pressed. Abel and Renner Blues seem to be the two best choices; many great pianos use either. Again a religious war.

But here's the reason for my contributing - voicing is a real art form, and your final result will depend in large part in your voicing artistry. There are a few theories about voicing technique, from radial needling, to through-the-sides of the hammers technique. Personally, I have my doubts about that, since I expect that the variation of stiffness and softness as the shock progresses through the hammer would suffer from impedance issues. At any rate, depth of needle, wiggling, angle, number of needles, strike area needling technique, and so forth, have so many dimensions of expression, it's rather like piano playing technique, and the variation you get from what you do makes the results vary widely. I have experimented on my hammers, since they're going away in the next year or so, and my suggestion is that you do the same. Then, with a reasonable hammer choice, you'll be able to work it to where you like it.

And find a good technician to talk to when you break out in a cold sweat.

Masonite! I hope you realize that good techs are NOT a 'dime a dozen' but maybe one in a hundred or more. I'm going to have to do quite a few things before these are right. I just hate to tackle the job as I thought he could do this easier. Even if they say they know what they're doing, often they don't. (

That's too bad Ralph. Hammers can only fulfill their potential if they are correctly hung. You'll have to get it right before you can get a good appreciation of those hammers.

I don't think there is a tech in the world that can hang a set of hammers so accurately that when the action gets to the piano every hammer is straight and lined up to the strings. Each hammer has to be checked even if it hits the string in the proper spot. Then it has to be determined whether it is the travel or tilt or spacing. Hammer spacing at rest must agree with the string spacing at the contact point. Usually this takes three passes through the regulation circle and you WILL straighten a hammer or two on the final pass. They don't always stay put.

Shaping these hammers will bring out the brightness.

kpiano

The testing to become an RPT with the Piano Guild is made up of basic repairs and regulation. According to the pre-screening manual published it is not required to know how to hang a set of hammers, or voice them. The techs that have honed those skills have learned by experiment and attending seminars on how its done. Then taken the info and refined it. Its best to find out how much of that work has actually been performed.

It also helps to have spent some time training in the factories of various manufacturers. You can learn many things, of which accuracy in completing a given task such as hanging hammers, is paramount in the final result of how a given piano will sound and feel.

Thanks for your input--everybody. I took a chance and now I have to figure a way out of it. When I asked if he could 'hang' the hammers he seemed stymied. I guess I should have left it at that. Well, thus it goes! But I'll survive and get it done right soon!

KR--I realize that the hammers need to be aligned to strike all three strings and when the una corda pedal is depressed not to strike the next set.

But the hammers should be in a uniformly straight line and some of these are not which means they have to be re-done. The last 5 or six in the extreme treble are really out of line. He thinks he did a superb job. Well, so it goes.

I'm sure the backchecks have to be adjusted some as well. I had Ronsens do the tapering, filing, etc. so it shouldn't have been to hard to hang them uniformly with guide hammers.

Oh, right, in a line is different from aligned. Fortunatly they can be pulled and rehung.

It is far more difficult to hang a set of hammers than it seems. Old hammers are worn and have been filed so the lengths and width of the the samples don't look like the new ones and shanks have warped, etc.

Obviously backchecks will need adjusting and so will let off and drop if the piano was regulated as the wear developed.

Keith

These types of problems are very frustrating. Finding a quality tech isn't that easy, and being a member of the PTG is no guarantee. I have a great tech, but he's an hour away. That's why I've learned to tune, regulate and and do a lot of others thins myself. My tech has been very willing to teach me too.

Ralph

How old where you when you approached the learning process and how much time did it take to feel confident to work on your own? Did you have access to another piano to practice with? I'm thinking about this process myself, to work on my own... or maybe even to pursue in retirement.

Well, I've been doing it for about 5 years. I'm 46 now. I started on the piano I have now, but before is was totally rebuilt. I've been through 4 sets of hammers. Not because I ruined them but rather because I wasn't happy with any of them. I've juiced, softened, filled, needled and ironed many times. I suggest talking with as many good techs as you can and read everything about the subject. Get onto the PTG message board and read through the archives as much as you can. If you're going to do things on the piano you play on, make small changes at a time. Nothing big.

I started by learning how to tune. Not that one ever stops learning, but that's a good place to start. The next thing you'll learn is how to replace a broken string.

Did you start learning tuning with your Steinway, or a less valuable instrument?

I can get my Steinway tech only every 3 months or so, and I'm also considering to do some touch ups in the meanwhile. But at the moment I'm to coward to touch anything other than the keys

It helps if the piano isn't the best and cheap so that if anything is 'broken' it's not too bad. I bought an old upright for $50.00 (it was in good condition, BTW) but I re-strung it, put new pins in, tuned, etc. I wanted to learn how to do some of the things since tuners/techs are hard to find that know what they're doing. I popped a couple of strings in the process but now I can, if necessary, replace a string. I keep some around just in case. I've regulated (bought the Jaras) leveled keys, replaced some felts. Have NOT replaced hammers or done back-checks. But I suppose I could do it but would rather have an experienced tech do that. The guy that screwed up the Horugel hammers claimed 25 years experience and competency. I think they figure the owners know nothing so won't complain even if it isn't right. I have (I hope) a more capable person coming Wednesday next to look at it. The hammers need to be re-hung, aligned, and strike point re-set. You have no idea how I hope he knows what he's doing!

Yesterday I had my Tech/rebuilder come and do my first tune & regulate since delivery. MY PIANO is back!!! I just can't believe how wonderful it sounds.

I expressed my desire to be able to tune my own and do minor repairs and adjustments. He walked my thru the tuning and adjustments and offered to spend some time with me at his shop (only about 2 miles from work).

Can't wait.

I started on the piano I have now. I didn't think I would destroy anything to the point that would ruin the piano. I did start slowly and cuatiously, but got more aggressive as my comfort level increased. Play around with the letoff. That's easy to adjust and will get your feet wet. Also tune a few unisons to get the feel and ear for tuning.

[/qb][/QUOTE]I started on the piano I have now. I didn't think I would destroy anything to the point that would ruin the piano. I did start slowly and cuatiously, but got more aggressive as my comfort level increased. Play around with the letoff. That's easy to adjust and will get your feet wet. Also tune a few unisons to get the feel and ear for tuning. [/QB][/QUOTE]

Why not? You can always hire your tech to fix what ever you messed up! ;-}

Dale

Any work been performed?? or updates?

Monster M&H: The lousy work was done and returned a week ago Tuesday. He couldn't regulate it so the backchecks checked, the hammers aligned with the strings, and the hammers were not in a uniform , i.e., straight line which throws the strike-point off. The next tech is to be here this coming Wednesday to assess the damage and see what we can do to straighten it out. I just hope I don't have to buy another set of hammers! I'm not sure how badly this guy has botched the job.

Wow. I'm sorry about your tech. Replacement on the old shanks is usually an easy job. 9o% of my hammer jobs have been on new shanks. I've only done under 20 sets myself. On the first few I would have the strike point right on and Dale would take one look and point out the tails need to be in a line too. Some times the samples we had
were pretty bad. There is a varience on the tail arcing that when we clamped the shanks in the Sprurlock jig and cut the end of the shanks off, we took the tip of the belt sander (80grit) and evened them out. This also roughed up the tails so they would check. The lighter maple Ronsen mouldings are harder to rough up. They probably need it to check.

Kpiano

KR: I didn't see it as such a big problem. I had Ronsens do the tapering, filing, squaring, etc. at their shop so they would be ready to go on with little problem. This guy could not align the hammers with the strings so that all three were sounded, adjust the backchecks as some miss them entirely--I think because they're not in alignment, i.e., from bass to extreme treble. Of course that means that the strike points for some of them are off too and the sound is very weak--especially the last seven or eight keys in the extreme treble.

By moving the action I can get them to sound good but then I can't put the end blocks, front rail and fallboard in. UGH!!!
I don't know what he was doing during his 25 years of experience--apparently NOT learning his trade.

Maybe it's more accurate to say 1 yr. experience 25 times.

That would just frost my cupcake!

Tech was here yesterday to assess the damage. LOTS of it. He'll be back to pick it up (whole instrument) to work on in his shop and give me a 'loaner' for teaching until he's done. With his current workload he estimates late September. School is starting soon and the demand for tunings, etc., will be heavy. The first 'tech' did such a lousy job he screwed all sorts of things up. (

BUMMER

What is he giving you for a loaner??

It will be a studio/upright. Not a grand! But, as my teacher in Honolulu said when I went to him for coaching on my doctoral recital about the piano he had arranged for me to use, "It has teeth!" As I use this piano for the students anyway, it won't be too bad and then the other will be returned in good shape to continue. Wow! This is my life--one musical fiasco after another!

What good would life be without stories to tell!! Good Luck

Any updates to be told??

Not yet--the tech from Statesboro told me how busy he would be with the start of school. Public schools have or are starting now and colleges are getting their instruments ready for the fall term too. He said sometime in September after things 'cool down' for him. You can imagine how frustrated I am since I can't teach right now. Well, that's a problem I have to live with. I'll definitely post as soon as Jerry gets the piano and starts the work and then the results when he delivers it finished. Wish me luck this time! I need ALL I can get!

I feel your pain. I really do. Hope it all works out in the end which it probably will.

Piano is to be picked up today or tomorrow (definite time will be ascertained) to be moved to tech's workshop for re-hanging the hammers, regulation, and re-setting the strike point which is now botched. Return should be sometime in September he thinks. At last something is happening! Maybe Mercury's turning direct from retrograde is having a positive effect.

Piano has been picked up tonight but he forgot to bring the loaner! They're supposed to bring it tomorrow now.

thanks for the update...please keep us posted.

Kimball studio piano delivered yesterday to be used until the grand is finished and delivered. It seems to be in very good shape and should suffice for the interim. This tech seems to know what he's doing and seems very responsible. Have I lucked up?

It is a Kimball........

just kidding, looking good so far.

kpiano

Yep--I'm not generally impressed with Kimballs but this one seems to have an even action and the tone quality is not bad!! For a few weeks I and my students can muddle through!

Any word yet?? Just keeping the post current

It should be sometime this month. Probably about the 15th or so before the Horugel is returned. Jerry took the piano to his shop, which makes sense, so that he can do practically everything there--regulating, voicing, etc.--and, of course, rectifying what the IDIOT tech from Reidsville did. Don't worry, I'll post as soon as I have it back with my opinion of the results. Jerry knows how unhappy I am with the hammer job so I think he'll try extra hard to make it right.

The Mason & Hamlin should be coming back about the same time. Brian said he might do the final touches here instead of in Atlanta. I'll sure be glad to get it back. Donations gratefully accepted! Just kidding of course.

Maybe things will return to 'normal' for me soon. I sure hope so!

NEWS!!! The Mason & Hamlin action will be returned tomorrow and he will spend several hours doing the 'in house' regulations and adjustments. He said it came out fine and he finished it today.

No news of the Horugel and the Ronsen hammers yet tho. Might be this week as well since Jerry did say about the middle of September! Well, the BIG one will be back anyway.

You got my check....Right??

Tks for keeping us updated.

No--I didn't!! Please RESEND and up the ante!

I sent it though paypal only wish I could help...did you get it back yet?? has it been reg'ed

The M&H action is back in, regulated, and sounds great and feels great! Brian Krefting, near Atlanta and recommended by Sally Phillips, spent a big part of today doing the final adjustments here with the action in and out of the piano. The hammers are M&H hammers that I had and the playing is wonderful. I just have to get used to playing it again! )

Now the Horugel is still to be returned so I'm waiting for it and I can then give you a report on the Ronsen hammers and how they're affecting the sound. Jerry Roberson of Statesboro/Brooklet is working on it.

Jerry is bringing the Horugel back tonight!! Ah--at last I'll have all three again! )

Results posted later for the Horugel with the Ronsen hammers. Regulated so touch and feel should be much better as well.

THANKS

Have fun...hope it all works out

The Horugel is home!!! It sounds and plays so much better. He did nothing to the hammers other than re-install them and align them as they should be, set the strike point, and regulated the action, put in some new pins for some that were loose, etc. I have a list of things he did. He, the tech, did a very good job and the sound is really very pleasant for such an economical ( ) piano. I think the Ronsen hammers were the ones to go for. He straightened out all the goofs of the other tech. I'm very pleased right now.

And the ZINGER!!! I almost dropped at his price for all the work, picking up and delivering the piano, and giving me a loaner while he was working on it. I gave an extra $100 since I felt he deserved it for cleaning up an incompetent's mess.

Maybe all good things do come to those who wait. What an ordeal. I've been following this thread like it was a mini series, or reality TV these days. After four sets of hammers on my piano, the Abels are marvalous. I could not be happier, but it took quite a while to get there. I hope your journey is over or at least near over.

That's a terrific idea!! "Piano World: The Reality Show." One season we can have two teams of shoppers for a new piano, running the gauntlet of various sleazy dealers and poorly prepped pianos. Bonus points awarded to the first team to wrestle a "real" price out of a dealer. Another year we could have two teams of techs racing to diagnose and fix some tricky mechanical problem. Or, how about following promising students as they audition for admission to a music program? Or performers who must play a difficult piece while contending with a series of increasingly obnoxious audience interruptions? The possibilities are endless.

Ralph: I think the Abels might have been a little expensive for the Horugel and if I had known Jerry was in the area and as competent as he is I would have sent it to him first-of course! The Ronsens seem as tho they will do the job for now.

I think several members here wanted to know the outcome. Jerry will be back to tune all three in a few weeks. I've been holding off on doing that until all three were back and then see to the tunings so they would all be compatible.

What a relief to have it finally done and by someone competent. He explained everything he did and made a list as well. He also had told me he tried to be reasonable in his price and he definitely was that. He could have done the M&H as well! Anyway, WHEW, it's finished for now.

Ralph

Any updates??

M&H M: Yes--the Horugel is back-see previous post--and Jerry did a great job in straightening out the botched job of the Reidsville incompetent. The piano has a nice sound now--much more even up and down the scale--and the action, too, plays like a piano should! Go up a few posts to read the initial post after it was returned. The sound is not brassy/strident as it was but is very nice even for a less than first tier instrument. He put the hammers in the right order (yep--they were not in order) and aligned them as they should be both from bass to high treble and to the strings so that all three are struck, adjusted the una corda pedal to make sure it worked properly and the hammers struck the right strings! The keys were leveled and action regulated. All of this was done for what I considered an unreasonablylow price so I added some to his fee. BTW, he removed the hammers and rehung them.

With the Horugel and the work he did--YES--I'M PLEASED!!!

Oh--the orginal question--Ronsen or Isaacs? The Ronsen's sound great and no voicing needed!! Jerry re-set the strike point too. The Ronsen's are cold pressed hammers which have a better sound than the hot pressed hammers.

After reading that the felts of the Isaacs came apart and that the poster was extremely unhappy with them, I have no regrets in going with the Ronsens. At least the Horugel is now in good playing shape.

Glad to hear your happy!!! I have been following your posts and was really interested in your final opinion, which I hope stays the course.

BTW what vintage is your Estonia? and have you had any work done to it? My rebuilder has one in his place and I've played a few times, but he has not done anything with it...it's just as he received it.

I emailed the factory with the serial number--it's a concert grand--and the response was that it was a 1993 product. The advertisement had Renner action, Roslau strings, Kluge keys, etc. Pretty standard first class European materials from that--I still have the brochure--and it is a very nice piano. I've had no problems at all with it except the very highest G was sticking at times or was very 'sluggish' but that seems to have abated. The students at school who've been over to play it prefer it to the 9' Yamaha in the auditorium there--I do too! It seems very well built and the sound is the European sound. It makes a nice contrast to the Mason & Hamlin which is now back and operable. I'm not as happy with the work done on it but it's fine. I think I'm going to let Jerry take it and re-work it. Had I known how excellent the work he did on the Horugel would be I would have let him do it in the first place and saved a LOT of money. Well, nothing to do now but move on.

(Mine have been the same. One year in and I still feel no need to voice. )

CG: You put Ronsen's on a Chickering concert grand? Are they 18 lb hammers? I would think that would be the weight for a concert grand. Chickerings of that era are super pianos.

The Ronsen's should sound better as they set in with playing. Did you say you liked the sound of the cold pressed Ronsens better than the ones you put on the M&H?

Kpiano

Yes, and they are 18s. It had previously had hard-as-rock Abels, which made the beast sound quite like a Steinway D, which is a lovely voice, but not what one truly expects from a Chickering. Regular voicing through mild sanding and needling every few months revealed the true nature of the piano behind that facade. I was tempted from all I read in PTG's forum to change to the Ronsen WurzenFelts long before I actually did, but those Abels were hardly soiled, much less grooved. When a one-in-a-million accident destroyed the Abels, I cried and pounded the floor (literally). Then the next day I ordered the Ronsens. Installed them and was back in business in less than a month. And the difference is exactly what was needed to get incredible dynamic range out of the instrument and far more tonal color. The Abels had only permitted unreliable ppp with overtones rising much too quickly up the scale to FFFF. Perhaps all well and good in a concert hall, a movie studio, and the mega-mansion and other demanding venues the piano had spent its long life in. But not what one wants for a more ordinary private home. The Ronsens make the softest playing amazingly easy and reliable and seemingly infinite shades of volume and tonal color from there up quite predictable and obtainable, with seemingly no point where even the most thundering FFFF ever distorts. The ping of the initial attack of the Abels is gone and there's a much nicer attack envelope with spectacular sustain--and all with no voicing yet at all and nothing but steady improvement on an already good thing. I could not be happier with the result. If I'd known what a difference a few hundred and about 40 hours of labor would make, I'd have made a barbecue of those Abels a year earlier. The piano was beautiful enough in the incarnation in which I bought it, but since the transplant, I fall in love with it all over again every single time I sit down to play it. With the WurzenFelt, she's a smoky voiced woman in a black sable coat with me hanging onto her every breath. (My friends don't call her my "girlfriend" for nothing. )

That was the best written description of the difference in tonal qualities of hammers I have ever read. I'm going to send that to Ray Ronsen. You might have a new job as PR man.

kpiano

I can't imagine anyone being more satisfied with the Ronsen hammers than you, CG. KR is quite right that Ray Negron will be most pleased with that 'review' of his hammers.

After the tech is here and I discuss it with him, I just might go ahead and order the 18 lb Ronsens and put on the M&H. As one of the more knowledgeable techs in another post said--the M&H I have came with cold-pressed hammers and thus, to regain its wonderful tone again, needs cold-pressed hammers re-installed.

I'm quite satisfied with the vast improvement in the Horugel, and, as KR suggests, they will improve with use and be even better.

I've got to agree with Chick about the dynamic range of Ronsen hammers. I tuned my piano yesterday, and afterward managed to get in a few hours of playing--haven't done that for a long time. I opened it up, and played some really soft passages, then pounded the living daylights out of some bass octaves. Zero distortion. Except from the neighbors on the other side of my duplex, whose screams were distorted by the thin wall between us...

Varcon, glad you ended up satisfied with the Ronsens on the Horugel! Enjoy.

Indeed, a wonderful description of tone by Chickgrand. When my Baldwin is ready for new hammers, I will definitely get the Ronsons. I also love that "smoky voice" as Chick described it.

Yeah, Ray Negron. I knew that.