Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Gifts and supplies for the musician

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

Trying Something New with Search
Piano Acc. & Gift Items in
Piano World's Online Store
RECITAL TIME!
Attention music teachers, we have gift items for your students. Students, we have gift items for your teacher!

Teacher & Student Gift Items

In PianoSupplies.com ,(a division of Piano World) our online store for piano and music gifts and accessories, party goods, tuning equipment, piano moving equipment, benches, lamps Caster Cups and more.


Free Shipping on Jansen Artist Piano Benches
(ad)
Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
Who's Online
68 registered (agraffe, AccidentalDavid, Beemer, AprilE, 19 invisible), 1310 Guests and 10 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Topic Options
#621496 - 03/09/07 07:55 PM KEYBOARD LEVELLING
beeflat Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/31/04
Posts: 60
Is an ordinary grand piano keyboard supposed to be level or tilted from front to back?

Thanks in advance for your input.

Top
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#621497 - 03/09/07 08:57 PM Re: KEYBOARD LEVELLING
R Barber Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/12/05
Posts: 141
Loc: Morgan Hill, CA
You mean the tops of the keys? If its old, there might be worn cloth under the back end of the keys causing the front end to go high. That height is cruicial to responsive touch, so you might want to get that looked at...
_________________________
Richard Barber, piano technician
Santa Clara Valley, CA
tune@pianoregulation.com

Top
#621498 - 03/09/07 10:46 PM Re: KEYBOARD LEVELLING
beeflat Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/31/04
Posts: 60
R Barber, thanks for the info. It sounds as though the key tops ought to be level front to back. Right?

Top
#621499 - 03/10/07 02:52 AM Re: KEYBOARD LEVELLING
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 23697
Loc: Oakland
Not necessarily. I think most keys are lower towards the back, but it is difficult to tell, as there are not necessarily good reference points. It is not the way the height of the keys is set.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
(ad 568) PTG Journal Online
PTG Journal Online
#621500 - 03/10/07 10:29 AM Re: KEYBOARD LEVELLING
Keith Roberts Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/04/04
Posts: 2000
Loc: Murphys, Ca
Draw arc through the capstan with the balance rail hole as the center. Notice that the capstan wipen point is farther along the circle when the key is flat and the capstan now is moving forwards and backwards instead of just lifting straight up or in the line of the arc of the wippen. This causes a scrubing on the pad and increases friction and wear and directs energy in useless directions.
_________________________
Keith Roberts
Keith's Piano Service
Hathaway Pines,Ca

Top
#621501 - 03/10/07 03:20 PM Re: KEYBOARD LEVELLING
R Barber Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/12/05
Posts: 141
Loc: Morgan Hill, CA
It's all about Jack, as Randy Potter would say.
The key height would determine the alignment of the jack to the knuckle core, and when the keyboard cloths get worn, the keys tilt, and the jack ain't where its supposed to be.
I have heard some artists refer to this tilt in terms of numbers, like "I like more of a 1, where as this piano is a 3" while they make the tilting gesture with their hands. When asked what it does for them, they say when the angle is correct, there is a better dynamic range.
A technician may then verify the jack to knuckle core alignment before messing with the balance rail.
_________________________
Richard Barber, piano technician
Santa Clara Valley, CA
tune@pianoregulation.com

Top
#621502 - 03/10/07 04:44 PM Re: KEYBOARD LEVELLING
Roy123 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/20/04
Posts: 1740
Loc: Massachusetts
 Quote:
Originally posted by R Barber:
It's all about Jack, as Randy Potter would say.
The key height would determine the alignment of the jack to the knuckle core, and when the keyboard cloths get worn, the keys tilt, and the jack ain't where its supposed to be.
I have heard some artists refer to this tilt in terms of numbers, like "I like more of a 1, where as this piano is a 3" while they make the tilting gesture with their hands. When asked what it does for them, they say when the angle is correct, there is a better dynamic range.
A technician may then verify the jack to knuckle core alignment before messing with the balance rail. [/b]
I'm confused by what you say. Is it not true that the wippen has to be at the same place relative to the strings when letoff occurs, irrespective of key angle? Also, isn't it true that the relationship of the jack and knuckle to the line of centers between the wippen flange and hammer flange is completely determined by the diameter of the knuckle and the relative mounting positions and dimensions of the wippen and hammer? Basically, it seems to me that these action parameters are determined by everything other than the key angle.

Top
#621503 - 03/10/07 05:42 PM Re: KEYBOARD LEVELLING
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 23697
Loc: Oakland
You are correct, Roy.

Yesterday I tuned two concert grands. One had rocker arm capstans, and the other screw capstans. That difference is not noticeable.

(For those who do not know, rocker arm capstans are fastened to the wippens by wooden stickers, so there would not be any "scrubing [sic] on the pad" in any circumstances.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
#621504 - 03/10/07 08:28 PM Re: KEYBOARD LEVELLING
woodfab Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/06/05
Posts: 409
Loc: Stoneham, MA
Yes it's normal for the keys to be tilted from front to back.



Typically about 1/4" from the front edge of the key to the fall
board.



ALIGN="BOTTOM">
_________________________
Dan (Piano Tinkerer)

Top
#621505 - 03/11/07 04:36 AM Re: KEYBOARD LEVELLING
R Barber Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/12/05
Posts: 141
Loc: Morgan Hill, CA
What I am saying is apparant on the diagram above: there is a cloth under the back of that key- check to see if it is worn out. It's thickness will affect the tilt and the position of the top of the jack with respect to the knuckle core while at rest on the key cloth. If the cloth is worn, you might try that capstan adjustment, but you will waste your time because you will do 88 of those, and fidget with other things, but will not have resolved the fact that there may be worn felt under there, which might have 2 or 3 or more mm of indentation, causing the keyboard to tilt by an even greater amount at the fronts. This would mean excessive dip, which would mean a change in the aftertouch (and where the whippen moves after letoff).
It made so much more sense in Randy's class at the convention.
_________________________
Richard Barber, piano technician
Santa Clara Valley, CA
tune@pianoregulation.com

Top

Moderator:  Piano World 
What's Hot!!

--------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

-------------------
Piano Classified Ads
(ad)
Hammond A100 for Sale!
PRICE DROPPED!
(Think B3)
Hammond A100 for sale!
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad 125)
Sweetwater $55,000 Giveaway
Sweetwater $55,000 Mic Locker Giveaway
(ads)
PD - WNG - MH
PianoDisc
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Help identifying cabinet style on 1911 Steinway "O"
by Dale Fox
05/04/16 01:46 AM
Getting confused in my journey to hunt a piano_help!
by FayeHsu
05/04/16 12:23 AM
Help me read Lili Kraus's mind
by Mark_C
05/03/16 11:11 PM
The Importance of the 7th Chord?!
by MacMorrighan
05/03/16 11:10 PM
Not a piano but....
by PhilipInChina
05/03/16 10:51 PM
Forum Stats
83,498 Registered Members
44 Forums
172,383 Topics
2,521,010 Posts

Most users ever online: 15,252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
Sheet Music Plus (125)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2016 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission