Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum When the customer knows more than the tech....

...or at least they think they do.

I got a call from a lady whose piano I tuned 5 months ago for it's first in-home service. It's a very nice Bohemia upright. Unfortunately, like all other new pianos, it is not very stable. The teacher told the lady (very nice person, btw) that the piano was out of tune. She called and asked how much I charge, and if it would be included in the purchase price.

I explained that since I am a contractor and not a store employee, unless they had a special arrangement with the store they purchased it from to pay for 2 tunings, they would have to pay. She said "I'd better talk to my husband first, but I think I'd like to set it up." I said okay, I'd pencil her in.

I didn't hear back from her, so I called. She told me that she'd talked to her husband, and that he felt 5 months was too soon for the piano to be out of tune, and that paying full price for that service is asking a bit much. He said that he'd call someone else. Now I've never met this guy, nor have I ever explained anything to him.

I gave the nice lady a brief explanation about why new pianos go out of tune quickly, as I did at the initial appointment and in the handout I give to customers with new pianos.

I did a little prying about her husband (sounded like an engineer to me...). Turns out he's a surgeon. The poor guy can't afford to have his piano tuned...:-( Anyway, I told her I'd like to talk to him so that I could explain a little bit more about why new pianos need frequent attention. She seemed relieved that I made that offer, as she definitely seemed caught in the middle.

As long as the customer makes an effort to understand why new pianos need more frequent service, I really enjoy tuning them. The downside is getting the blame for the inherent instability of new instruments.

Anybody else get blamed for piano instability despite making every attempt to educate the customer?

Let us know what the surgeon says - frustrating, I know. Lets see, huge home, nice cars, high income, tunes piano every 10-20 years.....just looking into the future......

I talked to the husband. He's a decent fellow, but is somehow convinced that pianos, particularly new, expensive ones, should be like BMWs and never need service. I gave him the whole story about pianos being made of many different materials that are susceptible to weather, and particularly to newness. He got it, but there was suspicion in his voice. I offered him many different sources to check out the truth of what I was saying.

To his benefit, he said that he'd like to have an "ongoing" relationship with the person that takes care of his piano. He suggested that I offer price incentives to regular clients. I explained that I don't do that, but I give my regular clients extra service in the other facets of their piano's maintenance if they are good about keeping to a regular schedule.

I offered him a discounted rate (I shouldn't say this in a public forum, should I..?) for this time only, because I hate to lose a client for reasons that are beyond my control. In the end, I believe we both got some resolution out of the conversation.

Actually, it works out well for me, because I've been on call for jury duty all week and wasn't able to schedule work as a result. Last minute appointments are welcome right now. And it's about 2 blocks away from the preceding appointment, which is real near my favorite coffee shop!

Dave, Don't get married to this customer -- there are some people that are very difficult to satisfy but very skilled at getting people to try to please them. The most recent customer of this sort that I had, with whom I had done my best for several tunings, had me come back for a "bad note." Turns out that I (and 6:3 test, and TuneLab) all thought that C3 should be at a certain place, and he thought it should be 15 cents lower. Just that note. Tuned that way, it made him perfectly happy. When the wife called six months later, I told her that I could not return -- I could just picture that now he would direct the placement of every note. Frankly, the wife did not seem too surprised. (I didn't suggest any other techs, either, but there are plenty around here for him to choose from, several with more patience than I have.)

Thanks for your perspective, Dorrie. I am quite familiar with this type of customer. Sometimes I see it as a challenge to satisfy them and keep them as solid customers, but I'm a realist, too. If the husband, wife, teacher, or 3 year old daughter ever thinks there's something wrong with my tuning, then it's on to the next tuner for them, and I'm okay with that. Better luck to the next one!

I am not a piano tech, not even in the piano business, but just a few comments.

In fact the opening story by Dave does not surprise me (a customer not realizing a piano needs some regular tuning/servicing; I can see a couple of reasons for that:

Where I live music schools/academies pay little of no attention in their educational programms to how a piano really works, plus the smaller schools tend to save on regulare tuning servicing of their instruments. So it cannot be a surprise that those that are trained by these schools underestimate and/or do not understand what a piano needs in terms of maintenance.

* When a dealer's tech was over some two years ago to tune my piano he had to tune/service a Yamaha that was at the musiic school in my hometown afterwards (they had nine pianos which where played on average 9 to 10 hrs per day). He looked at the service file and said that the Yamaha grand that whas bought two years before would now be tuned for the first time!

* Reading an article by J. Gedan on piano-e-forte.de -"Das Spielwerk von Pianos und Flügeln", he says on page two when talking about pianists:
; freely translated: "For them their instrument is like a black box, when pressing keys at the front, music comes out at the back"

* To further illustrate the lack of knowledge by piano professionals the same author quotes from a book written by Heinrich Neuhaus (famous pianist and pedagogist, teacher of Sjatoslav Richter and Emil Gilels) - "Die Kunst des KLavierspiels":
; freely translated: "the keys are moving in a very light manner: one merely needs a bit more than the weight of a match to get a string vibrating".
The author (J. Gedan) comments:
; freely translated: " just a bit more than the weight of a match" is not excactly what one would call an accurate description. But who would have thought the real value is about 15 times the weight of a match?"

* J. Gedan even goes further when quoting Alfred Brendel from "Nachdenken über Musik":
; freely translated: "There are today many more quite good pianist than there are pianotechnicians..[..]Could one only make clear to just a few pianists that if they would become pianotechnicians, they could contribute a lot more to music!"
The author interprets Brendel's statement as "that pianists lack technical knwoledge on their instrument whereas pianotechnicians often not have enough pianistical (music) experience".

So the educational role (or lack of it) of music schools and teachers plays an important role on how well pianists/piano players and technicians will understand eachother when communicating. Of course dealers do aswell. I wander if some are not afraid to tell potential customers what and what not to expect from an accoustic instrument?

Anyhow, if we are to believe Alfred Brendel, all pianotechnicians out there still have a bright future in front!

schwammerl.

Typical, really. People aren't aware of the maintainence issues when they purchase a piano. It's never explained to them by the salesman and then it comes at a complete shock to them when they learn.

So many new pianos NEVER get tuned after the initial tuning. I can't tell you how many 30 year old consoles I've tuned that are 1/2 step flat. In those situations, the only reason the customer calls is when a key gets stuck.

Like most of you, I try to educate customers at service calls. Customer education promotes music, pianos, and our business. I try to direct them to the PTG website, to Pianoworld, to my website, and I give them a flyer and talk to them about the best way to keep their piano working and sounding the way it should. But we basically get one shot at educating the customer--particularly when it comes to warranty service calls on new pianos--and then whatever we might have said is often quickly forgotten.

I have to add that when something we say concurs with something that a customer might read on the internet, then whatever we've said has some validity in the customer's eyes. "If it's on the internet, it must be true..."

People--including myself and many of us here--can "forget" things that might end up costing us money if we follow up on them.

The best I can come up with to keep clients interested in maintenance is pointing out that music is supposed to be a beautiful thing, and when the piano's gone out of tune, that beauty is missing. They may not notice, but their children certainly will, and the end result is that they won't want to practice.

Epilogue: I tuned the piano today. The mid range had gone 10-15 cents #, while the bass and treble had gone flat. In the end, after the piano was pitch adjusted and tuned, everyone was happy, especially the little girl who plays it!

I really wish there was a book out there for painists to read and help them learn about the technical aspects of a piano. I am an adult piano hobbyist, for lack of a better word--majored in music therapy back in college(rather than performance) as I needed to earn my bread and butter, but love to play. The comment about programs not educating pianists about their instruments is so accurate. As a woodwind player, I learned how to do all maintainence for my clarinet (replacing pads, etc.), but the care of the piano was always turned over to a technician. I certainly don't advocate doing the work myself, but I often feel hampered trying to describe something to a technician by my own lack of knowledge.

For example, right now I just got my lovely 7 foot grand out of storage where it has been for three very long years. I know it needs multiple tunings to help it 'get back in shape,' but I think the sound is too bright in the treble and very boomy in the base. Although my fingers are older now (and much stiffer and out of practice after 3 years), I also think the action seems a bit off to me. I attributed that to my rusty technique, but I worried that something might be a little off with the mechanism. Anyway, the tuner arrived for the first tune-up and I explained the story. He quite rightly pointed out that the house I am currently living in has many more hard surfaces (tile floors, lots of glass) than the house I previously had, so the sound will bounce around more. (I have a master's in audiology so can readily understand this and agree although I still think it sounds tinny.) After tuning it, he scheduled a return visit, and told me that he likes the sound and prefers a 'boomy' bass that has a 'growl' so thinks the voicing is fine. I thought that meant we just needed to tune it, but then he said that he needed to pull the action, clean it, oil it, regulate it, and voice it. He pointed out that I had some rust on a few of the strings (and a few of them do have a little), and that should be cleaned. That rust was indicative of possible rust on the pins which should be checked. Once it was regulated and voiced, any boominess and overly brightness in the treble would be corrected. Although he stopped short of saying the piano wasn't stored correctly and these things resulted from that, he indicated pianos were not always cared for the best in storage and there was evidence with the strings that it had been exposed to humidity and dampness. I asked for an written estimate of the work with everything detailed--it's expensive.

I have no issue with doing whatever work is required to keep the piano in best form. This is an expensive instrument and I will never be able to replace it, so good care is a given. However, I found myself feeling a bit like I do when I have to take our car in to be serviced. If the mechanic uses enough terminology and can spin a story that sounds logical, I tend to trust what he tells me. I just don't have the experience or knowledge to evaluate the truth of the matter, so fall back on the 'well, it sounded like he knew what he was talking about it' justification. And always in the background there is the 'if you don't do this, you are running the risk of damaging your vehicle/ piano more seriously' idea. I've learned over the years that some mechanics are straight up and would never do more than was necessary to solve the problem, and others--well.....

So, here I am in a quandary--new to the area, trying to find a reputable person (the technician came well recommended but by someone who had a piano for kids to learn to play rather than a pianist who played themselves), and wondering if I should do this work, and what damage I'll do if I wait and try to find someone else for a second opinion. I don't want to look as if I automatically don't trust technicians who do work on my piano, but I also want to do what is best for this instrument. So, any comments or suggestions? The piano is 20 years old---really an excellent instrument (tuners over the years have commented on how sweet it is), and has been maintained well over the years. No one else has ever suggested this type of work, and I wonder if I inadvertently encouraged this tuner to say it should be done with my comments on voicing. Any advice would be appreciated before I make this decision.

Reader,

While 3 years of storage isn't an inherently bad thing for a piano, if the piano has been kept on it's side, there may be alignment and regulation issues with the action. It is likely that a full regulation is in order.

Felt exposed to moisture, especially if it hasn't been played on for quite awhile, can get crusty and hard. Odds are the tone of your piano has gotten brighter as a result of this, thus the need for voicing. The dampers may zing when they seat on the strings, too.

Getting a second opinion isn't a bad idea, but going with the one who gives you the lowest price isn't always the wisest choice. Waiting until you can get a second opinion isn't going to harm the piano.

If the work is done well, your piano will play and sound far better than it does now. Pianos deteriorate slowly, and that deterioration often goes unnoticed by the player because it's such a gradual process--until it gets to sounding and playing really bad.

Best of luck!

Reader - I can relate to your passion and desire to get the most out of your piano. My personal piano is a 1938 Steinway, which I keep in tip top shape.

There may be friction issues as well as the regulation problems and hardened felts causing a need for voicing, as Dave Stahl says.

It could be a half to a full day with a top flight technician to make it all perfect for you again. An accurate assessment beforehand is recommended.

If you are in the Denver area, I will look at it free of charge. If not, let us know where you are. We (collectively) may know the right person for you to call.

What area are you in?

Thanks for all the help. I'm down in in Florida in the Ft. Lauderdale area, but otherwise I'd take you up in a snap to come and have a look at it, Randy.

I have decided to take the advice given and get a second opinion, as the piano still seems overly bright even after a second tuning to bring it up to pitch (understandably slipped a bit after the first). I stopped in at the local Steinway store and asked for a recommendation, and plan to also call over to Harrid conservatory which is in the area for a recommendation. It is a relief to know that I'm not risking imminent damage by continuing to play while waiting for the appointment (I was warned that it might take a month for the Steinway guy to be available as he tunes for the symphonies in the area.)

If there is someone that any of you know in the area, I would love a recommendation. In the meantime, I can just say that it is wonderful to have the piano back and to be practicing again. Again, thanks for the help--I learned a lot with just the two posts and feel much more confident going forward.

Back to your original question, Dave ...

It happens rarely in my area, but it's memorable when it does.

I had a client (He's no longer with me) who called a tech. friend in California, and played notes over the phone for the CA guy to evaluate! A little delicate questioning revealed that he was playing one note, not octaves or intervals, and that they were "definitely" off.

This telephone evaluation was not the only irregularity in dealing with this customer, and he sought another tuner much to my relief.

I've always felt that piano players are above average in intelligence and social skills, but that's not a hard fast rule.

'Glad your service call turned out well.

David

Hello again all....been away for a while but nice to be back on the boards again.....and I like this post because it is, I feel, dealing with arguably one of the most challenging areas of our work.

Dave and Randy - you are absolutely spot on.I have found here in Ireland that 99.9% of piano owners don't realise that it is absolutely essential their pianos receive REGULAR servicing. But as I tell them when I call with them....it's not their fault - why would they know?Nobody ever tells them.I would guess that very rarely in the piano shop as the customer is walking out and the store owner is listening to that sweet 'ch-ching' sound coming from the cash register, does the owner ever rush to the door to stop the purchaser leaving, before saying "By the way, there's something else you should know as regards servicing......"

Reader, Im sooooo glad you used the 'mechanic' analogy - I use this one with my customers too.I dont know about you guys over there, but here we've had quite a lot of programmes on TV about 'cowboy' mechanics, 'cowboy' builders, 'cowboy' plumbers etc etc.. And, although these might be entertaining to watch, I cant help feel that because piano technology is such a specialized field, it may be indirectly damaging our profession too. Because as soon as we start trying to explain problems with a piano that has a less than adequate service history - it starts to sound like a load of old guff to try and needlessly prise a lot of the owner's hard earned cash out from under his/her matress!!

I was always told when I was doing my training in piano technology that one of the hardest parts of the job would be educating piano owners that the work needs done. Well, holy heck, aint that the truth!!!

Best Regards to all

Mark

Reader, your questions are very valid, however they are really in a separate realm, closer to the opposite of the the topic of this thread. It sounds like you want some suggestions on how to find and interview a piano technician. That is a recurring topic here. So, I have started thread to that effect in the Tuner-Technicians FAQ Forum. This is a bit of a compilation of what has been written in the past, and I hope others can add more information on this important subject.

See:
"How to find a good piano technician"
http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/35/74.html

Poof! your wish is granted.

Start here:
The Piano Book by Larry Fine.

That should be enough for most people, but you want more details and get a deeper understanding of what piano technicians do, you could read: Piano Tuning, Servicing and Rebuilding by Art Reblitz.

If you still want more after that, just become a piano tech and you'll never run out of new things to learn.

Dave this guy is playing you. I'd walk away. As a surgeon he expects his patients to trust his word and explainations. You should expect no different. He's just a service person like yourself. As you are pro your sound advice should be accepted. Let 'em walk. I have zero patience with this type.

The fault lies with the dealers. Pianos are not tuned enough at the factory and dealership. I emphatically impress upon my customers to expect a new piano to do all sorts of strange things for up to a year and to play it, play it, play it and be forgiving, no matter what line of BS the dealer fed. Most piano company warrenty info is quite clear on tuning frequency and enviornment. Pianos, like people are organic. It is not the tuners duty to make a organic, living wooden string instrument into a swiss watch.

Reader if you were my customer I would have you play that piano for 3 months or so just as it is. Much of your woe will be worked out naturally from use. Your muscles are underdeveloped, your ears not accostomed to your old friend. Consider it as you would a cousin not seen for years. It's a bit strange at first. At the end of 3 or so months, and as you adjust to the new acoustic enviornment, have a tuner give the instrument a good tuning. Then play it, discuss what areas you'd like improved, from voicing to regulation. Time is on your side.

Sam,

I did my bit, tuned the piano, and I really don't care if he ever asks me back again to tune his piano.

You're right about dealers not wanting to discuss maintenance with the customer. It costs money, and customers don't want to hear it. Unfortunately, in the end, the tech loses income, the customer plays--or more likely doesn't play--an out of tune piano, and the manufacturer and dealer both get accused of selling bad pianos. Lies and hidden truths hurt everyone in the long run.

I recently had an interesting encounter with a prospective client who called to have me tune her old European grand piano. From my initial contact with her, she was adamant about how great this piano is (kept raving about its European action) and how it had been in her family for ages. When I got to her house, I checked out the notes from top to bottom. As I got closer and closer to the treble section, it was more and more out of tune. The whole piano was horrendously out of tune, but the treble section was WAY flat. I put the lid up and took a look inside. What I found was one of the struts on the treble side of the harp had a 1/8" wide crack that was almost all the way through; that is, it looked as though it was just about ready to let loose.

I showed her the crack and explained that it was causing the major tuning instability on the treble end and that it was pointless and dangerous to do much beyond relieving some of the tension on the harp. She told me to tune the piano anyway. I refused and explained why, and she just kept telling me to go ahead and do it and that she "wouldn't hold me responsible for any further damage." I mentioned that I didn't really want to be around when the harp let loose, politely declined (again) to tune it, and left.

Since I'm far from being an expert on all things piano, I decided to call my tech mentor and ask him for his advice. He told me that pianos have a definite lifespan and her piano has reached the end of its life and had now become a "piano-shaped object." He explained that while there are techniques that might work to save the old piano, they are expensive and won't necessarily guarantee success.

The woman called back and told me the tech where she lives most of the time (the piano I saw was in her vacation home) said that it wouldn't be a problem to tune it up. She pressed me to come back and tune it again. I told her what my tech mentor told me and flat out refused to tune her piano. She said that she'd just get her tech to make the two-hour drive and tune it himself. I said that would be her best bet.

I haven't heard a word from her since, but I do wonder what became of the piano and the tech who supposedly thought it was a good idea to tune it.

Cheers,
--
Don

COMMANDMENT VIII from Ten Commandments for Piano Owners sayeth:

VIII: Respect the ear of the tuner. Say not unto him, "I took three fiddle lessons, therefore I know this note is false." Thy tuner is a trained man and he heareth exceedingly well.