Replacing p.block in Steinert grand, which kind do you recommend? Should I go with the fewer-ply rock maple, or the very-many-ply Euro beech? Which brand carries the best reputation for longevity, etc. ?
This year Steinert has nearly parallel bass pins which increase the stresses there a little more than another piano, so I am looking for your opinions as to the "strongest" block available.
Thanks,
Peter

I've used Bolduc pinblocks with excellent results. They are of the fewer-ply rock maple quarter-sawn. I think he is amongst the most expensive, but you get wht you par for.

www.pianobolduc.com/index.html

If you are primarily interested in strength and longevity, use either a Delignit or Falconwood block. They are denser and stronger. Be warned that they are also harder to control. The reason that people don't always use them is that there is very little room for error when drilling. They are so dense that even small variances in drilling can produce uneven results. There are ways of dealing with this. What I do is to drill the block in two passes. When drilling for 2/0 pins, the first pass is with a .250 bit. Then I go through with the final bit. This last bit basically just skims the surface of the hole. This way the bit doesn't overheat, and it gives a more consistent feel to the pins. I also sort the pins. Depending on the brand of tuning pins you buy, there can be a good bit of variance in the diameter. I find that it is worth it to buy the more expensive pins. They are more consistent. Again, with a dense block, this makes more of a difference in the feel of the tuning pins when you are done.

My re-builder has used nothing but Falconwood pinblocks for the last 20+ years. Every Falconwood he has installed has NEVER failed, and they are all still working properly. That has to say something about the quality. He also mentioned to me how important the drilling was and how the bit should be new etc.

Thanks for the input. I agree with the double-pass drilling regardless of block type/brand. The Steinert, being a close copy of the Steinway, originally had the fewer-ply rock-maple so I am leaning that way.
I guess I am leary anyway about 20+ plys in 1 1/2"s. In drum-building, plywood shells are quite dead compared to the solid wood ones (stave construction for example). It's the high glue content that doesn't allow the shell to ring, only "thud" because the glue is softer than the wood.
In a pinblock, I am wondering if it makes any difference ...
Anyway, thanks again!

I have never heard of anyone using this criteria to select a pinblock. Maybe I've lived a sheltered life?

Maybe we are going to start to hear stories of technicians who select pinblocks by thumping them and seeing which has the best ringtime

I think the maple that was used in old American pianos is a bit better for pinblocks than the beech that was used in old European pianos. But for the most part, it does not matter that much.

RoyP,
It certainly depends on which "glue" is used.
I am, however, persuaded that with any project which relies upon the abilities of wood to perform some function, there is (for concise purposes) a wood/glue ratio limit that must not be approached so as not to diminish the effect desired from the wood. There are, obviously, very rich results to be had by the synergistic use of wood and epoxies but we must play by the rules to get the best possible results from the two. For the current piano in question, I am very interested in squeezing out the last bit of performance from the best designed and built pinblock (because of the inherent increased strains placed upon it from the bass string pin pattern.
And, for kicks, I probably WILL tap the block when I get it just to see how it sounds, now that you mention it!

I use rock maple.How old is the Steinert pin block? how loose were the pins and their size? the reason for these questions are that that pin block was designed for that bass for a reason. I try to replace the pin block with the same one that came out or the closest as posible.It wont hurt to go to an twelve ply or more and the glue factor is important.Does the original pin block have any delaminations or cracks in the wood between the glue layers,this can also help you decide which way to go.More layers of pinblock could posibly eliminate cracking.Less layers could posibly eliminate delaminations.Also the conditions the piano was in has a big barring on this to.
I travel through maine to Monson a few times a year.Cold winters tend to dry out Pin blocks,especialy when wood stoves are blasting out the heat.If this is the case with this piano I would use Falconwood and double drill.I also use a brass wire cleaning rod ,the same used in cleaning my 22 rifle barrel.It rufes up the wood inside the hole and takes out any glue that may have solidified from the heat build up of the drilling.Sory to go so long with this,but getting it right the first time is very important and costly if done wrong.

Is is really better to double drill? I've always used a new bit with each block, and air-cooled it while drilling. Worked fine for me. I'll bet most makers don't double drill.

The pinblock is structural and some people go to great lengths to dampen noise coing from parts of the piano other than the soundboard and strings. For stabilty you are better of with more laminations.

Hey Steinert-
I'm going to be gluing up my first board (or drum head as I think of it) on Monday and I would like to know what glue you think has the best sound transmission. That will be the ribs on monday and the board in the piano on Wednesday

Keith,
Well, honestly I actually have scratched my head many times regarding the glueing of the ribs to the soundboard. Glueing the grain of the ribs at 90 degrees to the grain of the soundboard requires some guts I should think, ... but all pianos are thus made! I realize that with movement of the wood, the board has several options to deal with the strain, but I still can't get over my "feeling" that it just shouldn't work as well as it does ( it's not many-ply, there is such a small cross-sectional mating surface across the rib and such a long surface in the direction of the rib. Like a metal bi-layer switch, the board can still move, but there's a lot of strain and I would be afraid of putting an epoxy that is too hard/brittle, even though that would have better sound transmission than something soft ... but if those ribs delaminate then where's the sound transmission now?
With a history in boatbuilding, I typically use the WestSystem epoxies anyway, and just keep the layer of glue real thin where ever I am in the piano

I beleive I have video of the M&H factory drilling, taken last year ... will post a link later when I get home ...

Jeff,
I am guessing the pinblock is original (because it is the fewer-ply, rock maple type) which would be roughly 85 years old. It has no delamination showing, but much checking! This piano had several drinks spilled into from what I understand (I know nothing about mixed drinks, but it looks like milk-shakes were spilled by the look of the old crud I had to chisel off the soundboard on one side!!. The piano came from Colorado, so I thought it would swell like crazy coming to the coast of Maine, but your right, I haven't had to do much to dry out the soundboard this winter. The pinblock was already all cracked up before it dried out.
If I put the new pinblock in a kiln and bring it down to 8% EMC, then install, this winter (so it doesn't swell too much before I get fitted and installed) I shouldn't have any further problems with dry winters. I would like to use the rock maple, but I prefer "right" to "want!"

here's drilling be done at the M&H factory last year on the PW Tour M&H Drilling

Steinert Fan

I don't recommend drying the pin block down.

A properly drilled Maple pin block like Boldoc or Steinway has such a fabulous feel to tune.

As it is pointed out here by other posters, delignit, falcon wood, excalibur are all excellent when drilled properly. And they are drilled a little differently.

Delignit and Falconwood are particularly sensitive to tighter tolerances when drilling.

Tapping the pin block will not yield anything useful towards the sound of the piano.

Tolerances for bearing, sound board design, execution of the installation, string scale design, understanding actions, best hammers for your desired sound, execution of the action work ... are all critical to the outcome.

I can't stress enough getting involved with some of the PTG folks in Maine and there are some good techs there.

If you don't mind me asking, where in Maine are you?

Larry

Larry,
I didn't mean that I would tap the pinblock as to determine what usefulness it might be for the finished piano's sound; during the short discourse on glue/wood combos as applied to various projects, I only meant that the ratios and types would effect the job required of it, which I agree is NOT sound amplification! I did mention I that I would probably rap on it after the discussion, but that's for kicks, not actually experimentation toward imroving anything sound-wise (I tap on a lot of stuff: trees, shovels, kitchen table, ... my own head! I am a curious kid first, then a musician, then a piano player, and then a piano tinkerer!)
As I thought about it, I have to agree with not drying the block.
As mentioned earlier, just trying to sqeeze out the most strength and stability from a new pinblock since the design of this Steinert has a reputation for being hard on pinblocks (parallel bass pins).
Thanks for the info.

The amount and placement of end grain wood relative to the force on the pin, the fit of the block to the plate flange and webbing are primary. Assuming a well made block ...

The orientation of the bass pins in the Steinert is not serious if all else is well.

If all else is NOT well, than ANY orientation of pins will not work. The stress of the string tension will cause failure.

Over the years it is easy to see how the actual way pin blocks are laid up as being the significant cause of failures, right next to bad environments .....

Pianos such as the Mason and Hamlin A(older ones, not sure about todays Mason A) has a very small profile of block in the bass and more care in fitting is necessary there to support the section adequately.

I have a Knabe in my shop right now where the pins in the tenor section are right next to the flange. Very little wood for support. I am looking that one over carefully.

BTW, where in Maine did you say you were?

Boston and NH have a lot of good speakers coming this spring. Many of the Maine folks are attending.

Larry

Ribs have to be glued at 90* to the grain. It's structural. Plywood across joists is the same.

If you picked up a board glued with the grain along the ribs, it would snap in half. The flex of the compression crown would cause the board to bubble or be wavy between ribs. The board would not have the stiffness.

Keith,
Yes, of course, everything is designed accordingly, it would be foolish to stray from that design. I simply can't get past the idea that a rib spanning that much width of the soundboard, across the grain, doesn't come loose more often with changes in humidity. As the board flexes with the changes, even though both the ribs and the board move, still there has to be either some sliding that must take place between the rib and the board or the rib must compress tremendously. Knowing how much tension there is from the strings I know it is very possible to compress spruce along the grain that much, but it just doesn't feel right under my skin. I am not negating what is the clear and proven method employed for hundreds of years, I was just expressing my lack of comfort with it. In my mind, all the ribs would buckle loose every spring if not every fall ... but clearly that's not the reality!

Ribs do not need to be 90° to the soundboard grain.

The soundboard is not under tension from the strings. It is under a moderate amount of compression, depending on how much downbearing there is. The tension of the strings is borne by the plate, not the soundboard.

Larry,
I'm in Bangor, Maine.
BDB, right, thanks.
I was impressed by a story my father-in-law told me: while in college he was helping a group of guys move. There was an old upright they didn't want (which I'm sure needed repair). One guy decided he would dismantle it with a chainsaw and proceeded to cut down the back of it (it was laying on the ground, keys facing down). As he was cutting there was a loud and disturbing CRACK! He stepped back and shut off the saw. There were a few more little creeks and then (much to the surprise of a few college boys) the piano snapped together like a mammoth-sized bear trap! It must have had a 3/4 harp.

That's a good story.

When I was in college, some guys pulled off a scheme to push an old upright to the college mall and torch it. They called in a report of a breakin to lure the lone security guard to a house which was off campus. Then they wheeled this thing to the mall, doused it with kerosene, and lit it. It was a huge fireball that lit up most of the campus. They left a note on the scene from the PLO - the Piano Liberation Organization. They only got caught because one of the guys got nervous and went in and confessed. They ended up doing community service at the fire department.

As far as the double drilling goes, Bob is right that it's not necessary. But then, a company like Baldwin sets the pin torque standards pretty high to account for inconsistencies in drilling with their blocks. None of the manufacturers probably double drill, because it's alot of extra labor. I just think that it is one of those extra things we can do as small custom shops to improve the consistency of pin torque. It isn't much of an improvement with the 5-ply rock maple blocks, because it's a softer material. There is more room for error. However, with the many-multi-ply beech blocks, it definitely helps.

I just put in a 24 lamination rock maple pin block and drilled it twice for 2/0 nickel pins.The question I have is ? is the beach harder than rock maple? I haven't used beech thats why I ask.Mabe I can Improve the holding power of the pin, better on the concert grand i'm dooing.

I don't know that the beech is harder than maple. They are probably about the same. The Delignit blocks are denser and harder, but I think that it is due to the resin used to glue the layers together.

I've been using the pinblock planks sold by Pianotek for about 10 years. I drill with a .257 high-spiral jobber bit that are avaliable from MSC. They are VERY sharp and fast. The drill speed is 1650 RPM. I keep a vacuum nozzle a quarter of an inch from the drill hole so all the chips are pulled away from the bit to prevent binding, and this also doubles as a cooling source for the bit. The temp of the bit is never uncomfortable to the touch which insures that the metal is not deformed and the whole diameter should be consistent.

It seems to me that the actual material is somewhat secondary to the drilling process. What will really insure the longevity of pin torque will be the humidity fluctuations down the line the block will be exposed to, ie. the less changes the better.

Hi Terry:
Pianotek sells both Bolduc and Delignit blocks. If you are using a .257 bit, I would guess that using are using the Bolduc blocks. A .257 bit in a Delignit block would produce an extremely tight pin. I think that the bits for the Delignit blocks are closer to .270. One thing about double drilling is that the bits don't seem wear out as fast. I do the same thing you do, as far as using the vacuum nozzle close to the drill bit to pull air across the bit. One of these days I will break down and buy a chiller.

The Bolduc blocks are fine. I like them, and have used several recently, due to customer requests. I just use the drill bits that Pianotek sells for these blocks. They do produce a very nice feel for the tuning pins without double drilling.

Hi Peter,

Yup, Bangor is a ways up. Sometimes I forget just how big Maine is.

I don't know any folks from that area, tho some of my friends in Portland and up along the coast may.

Getting a variety of good info can be challenging.

I'd recommend calling the President of the Maine Chapter of the PTG. There may be someone close enough to you.

PW is a great forum, it would be nice to add a way to visit a good shop.