Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
#626340 - 03/05/05 09:11 AM help needed--recording an aural tuning with an accutuner!
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
i am trying to record an aural tuning with an accutuner, and i am getting hung up on one step of the process.

does anyone here have experience recording aural tunings with this particular machine?

can you explain to me how you store the pitch of the partial for A0 (i'm using A2) and then go on to record the fundamental?

the directions in the manual seem explicit, but in practice they are quite ambiguous. neither my visitng tuner (who is strictly an aural tuner) nor i can figure it out.

the directions say as follows:

4. to set the partial, press the TUNE button and set the display for the NOTE and OCTAVE of the desired partial... [no problem]

5. now measure the pitch of the partial on the piano by playing the note[/b] and using MEASURE and/or CENTS to stop the lights. [am i playing the note A0 or the note A2?]

6. pressing the MEMORY button will show you the NOTE and OCTAVE on the keyboard that you want to store along with the PAGE number you have chosen. pressing the TUNE button will display the partial of the note you are about to store and the CENTS deviation for this partial. [this worked OK when i took the measure of the partial in step 5.]

7. switch to MEMORY mode to correct the NOTE or OCTAVE to be tuned. [no problem]

8. switch back to TUNE mode (by pressing the TUNE button) if you want to modify the partial setting. [ok, no problem]

9. when the settings are all correct, store the tuning for this note by holding down the SHIFT key then pressing and releasing STO-MEM.

ok, now the problem happens. i've stored the reading of A2, and it steps up next to A#2. and there is no indication of how i record the pitch of A0.

i need more explicit directions!

i've tried calling the number for sanderson accutuner and left a message. they are evidently closed for the weekend and my tuner leaves for new york, with the accutuner, tomorrow afternoon.

anyone who can clarify this in time gets a prize! seriously!

many thanks in advance.
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

Top
(ad PTG 568) Grand Action Regulation in 37 Steps
Grand Action Regulation in 37 Steps
#626341 - 03/05/05 03:23 PM Re: help needed--recording an aural tuning with an accutuner!
Casalborgone Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 1046
Loc: San Francisco Area
The beauty of the Accu-tuner (compared to the other ETDs) is its simplicity of operation.

I don't know whether you realize that when you are tuning A0 the Accu-tuner is listening to the partial at A2. It is also storing this at position A0 in the memory page devoted to the tuning. You do not record the fundamental of a note when recording a tuning (except perhaps A4). Since you are tuning to the partial, the fundamental frequency is irrelevant. This point goes to the heart of the theory of tuning. (Don't feel badly if this point has escaped you; many of us tuners don't understand the theory in all its depth. It is far from a simple matter, despite its straightforward appearance.)

That understood, you are following the instructions properly. When you push the MEM button, the Accu-Tuner displays the note you are tuning. When you push the TUNE button, the Accu-Tuner displays the partial at A2 which it is reading.

You can toggle back and forth between these displays by alternately pushing the MEM and TUNE buttons.
_________________________
Mike
Registered Piano Technician
Member Piano Technicians Guild
Not currently working in the piano trade.

Top
#626342 - 03/05/05 08:11 PM Re: help needed--recording an aural tuning with an accutuner!
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
thanks for answering, mike.

we were finally able to get through to paul sanderson and he walked me through it. the problem was that i was reading the manual too literally, and when it said to record the "note" or partial, i could not tell if they meant put my finger on the key for A0 or for A2.

once that was cleared up, we were able to go ahead with recording.

i've received PMs suggesting i also try tunelab, so i think i may try that on my own after my tuner friend has left, if i have time before heading out of town for a while.

thanks for explaining the role of the partials so clearly. there is so much to learn! \:\)
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

Top
#626343 - 03/06/05 07:56 PM Re: help needed--recording an aural tuning with an accutuner!
Bill Bremmer RPT Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3237
Loc: Madison, WI USA
"does anyone here have experience recording aural tunings with this particular machine?

can you explain to me how you store the pitch of the partial for A0 (i'm using A2) and then go on to record the fundamental?"

Well, storing aural tunings is the ONLY way I use that machine. May I ask why you are doing this?

Normally, the Accutuner will store information in the low bass on the 6th partial. So, A0 would be read and stored on E3. Yes, it is confusing at first and none of the numbers will seem rational. But you absolutely cannot expect the device to read and store anything that low on it's fundamental. It won't even register. The device responds best to frequencies somewhere in the middle.

I use the PTG Exam Program partial selection which I find to be ideal. From A0 to B2, it reads on the 6th partial. The 3rd, 4th and 5th octaves are all read on Octave 5. The 6th and 7th octaves are read on the fundamental.

The FAC program reads mostly on the 4th partial which is really annoying and unrealistic. That's why I never use it. Too inaccurate.

WHY are you doing this?
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

Top
#626344 - 03/06/05 08:36 PM Re: help needed--recording an aural tuning with an accutuner!
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
hi, bill,

i'm doing it because of friend of mine who is a gifted aural tuner, and visiting my neighborhood for the first time in a few years, made me the gift of my own personal tuning, one he crafted just for me and my piano. we want to save it in hopes that my regular tech will be able to duplicate it.

we tried using E3 as the partial for A0, however, we got much better readings using A2. (my regular tech, who does use the accutuner, told us that would be the best partial on my piano, and he seems to have been correct.)

paul sanderson said it really doesn't matter which partial we use, to use whatever gives us the best reading, so that's what we did.

we switched the partial to octave five beginning with c4, and then switched to the fundamental beginning with c5 and stayed with that to the top.

it probably wasn't optimal since neither of us has ever used the machine before, but we did the best we could. i sure wish i'd known this was your specialty because i would have been on the phone to you in a heartbeat!

we did get some good advice from my regular tech about how to read the lights and produce a consistent tone for the reading. we'll find out how well it worked for our purposes in a few months when he tries to duplicate the tuning.

here's a question for you, bill: how likely are we to get all the nuances of the aural tuning when we use the machine to put the tuning back on in a few months? we think the wild card may be the unisons, that the choices an aural tuner would make for tuning the unisons might be different than the ones the machine would make.

what do you think?

thanks for responding!
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

Top
#626345 - 03/06/05 11:14 PM Re: help needed--recording an aural tuning with an accutuner!
Casalborgone Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 1046
Loc: San Francisco Area
Cio che lo stolto fa in fine, il savio fa in principio.

This whole project has a wonderful assbackwardsness to it!
_________________________
Mike
Registered Piano Technician
Member Piano Technicians Guild
Not currently working in the piano trade.

Top
#626346 - 03/06/05 11:24 PM Re: help needed--recording an aural tuning with an accutuner!
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
and that is supposed to mean?

this is an experiment, and one i am thoroughly enjoying. the piano is glorious tonight! \:\)
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

Top
#626347 - 03/07/05 07:51 AM Re: help needed--recording an aural tuning with an accutuner!
Jens Schlosser Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/31/02
Posts: 262
Loc: Leipzig, Germany
pique,

whatever Casalborgone's statement was about, it will definately sound funny to most technicians that you speculate about the way the unisons were tuned by your gifted tuner. The most useless knownledge is when people think they know something about a certain topic and in fact don't know anything. Whoever speculates about the way unisons are tuned doesn't know anything about piano tunings. Unisons always have to be beatless, although I have heard that some people are suposed to prefer a honky-tonk sound (with slight beats in the unisons) which to me sounds hard to believe and I'd refuse to tune a piano this way. So piqu I hope your unisons are beatless and it should be clear by know that this will not be the wildcard when trying to restore that special tuning.

You probably made some people laugh when you wrote your comment about unisons, but since you seem to be interested in the technical aspects of the piano, may I suggest you start reading some books and understanding some theory? This would help you to gain some knownledge which you already think you have but have proven to not have. Maybe you mixed up the various options of stretching octaves or even using a different temperament with tuning a unison, where the only option is to get it as beatless as possible (with very few exceptions, for instance when the sustain in the highest treble would be too short you might try giving one string a very slight beat so that it is hardly noticable).

The book by Arthur Reblitz "Piano Servicing, Tuning & Rebuilding" has often been recommended and I think it is a good book to start in order to get some real knownledge.

As for your question: Yes, it will be possible to restore that special tuning if you recorded it correctly. Every tuner who knows how to handle this machine can do it.

Best regards,
Jens

Top
#626348 - 03/07/05 08:04 AM Re: help needed--recording an aural tuning with an accutuner!
ChickGrand Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 3231
Loc: Midwest U.S.
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jens Schlosser:
...(with very few exceptions, for instance when the sustain in the highest treble would be too short you might try giving one string a very slight beat so that it is hardly noticable)...[/b]
This point interests me. I've been tuning my own pianos regularly for three years now and last week on my tuning of the concert grand I spent perhaps more time in that top group of undamped strings setting as perfect of unisons as I have ever done in that difficult region, getting so close that 2nd partials would actually register slightly with Tunelab on all but the highest eight or so. This seemed to greatly improve the balance of those top notes to the rest of the piano in a way I'd always wanted and improved sustain a fair amount as well allowing the string tone to overcome what can too easily become a percussive "plink" in that top 6 or 8 notes. So that experience convinced me that great care in that region can do wonders.

If one were seeking to improve sustain that last bit further as you suggested with setting one string offset further, how much further would you go with the one string? (If this is even measureable such that you might give a figure and not just do it by ear). I might want to try this technique on the top 4 notes where sustain falls off just a little abruptly.

(Otherwise, regardless of temperament, anything except perfect unisons sounds absolutely awful to me.)

Top
#626349 - 03/07/05 08:17 AM Re: help needed--recording an aural tuning with an accutuner!
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
once again i am overcome with amazement of the sheer arrogance of some on this particular list. i'm not the one tuning this piano or who needs to know how to tune a unison. the person who did tune it has forgotten more than some of you ever knew. if the techs here think as you describe, jens, then they are so knee-jerk in their smugness they've missed the possibility that there could be more going on here than meets the eye. they've lost their capacity for curiosity, and hence they've lost their capacity to learn.

there is more to tuning unisons, for the aural tuner who tuned my piano, than making them beatless.

i think i have really just been wasting my time here. i regret coming to this group with any questions or interest. i find much more useful and authoritative information in RL, with technicians who are kind, generous, and gracious in their dealings with pianists, rather than arrogant.
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

Top
#626350 - 03/07/05 08:59 AM Re: help needed--recording an aural tuning with an accutuner!
Casalborgone Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 1046
Loc: San Francisco Area
With all due respect, pique, I think your posts contain more than a small amount of arrogance. This is the arrogance of asking people here what purports to be a simple technical question and at the same not being perfectly honest with them. For my part, and perhaps for others, one can feel quite that one has been taken advantage of.

Whatever secrets underlie your tuning project are your own business, but they seem to me to resonate with some fundamental misunderstandings about the theory and practice of piano tuning.

For example I find it difficult to believe that a "gifted" tuner, whatever his or her method for tuning, would not understand very thoroughly the theory of partials. Thus the initial difficulty you described in understanding and following the instructions for using the Accu-tuner seems incredible. As I mentioned before, the Accu-tuner is very easy-to-use and its functions should be transparent to anyone with experience tuning pianos.

I also wonder how it could be that your regular, perhaps only "competent" tuner could not explain to you, and take a great deal of pride and pleasure in pointing out the issues regarding tuning unisons by ear. Certainly this is something your "gifted" tuner could very quickly demonstrate to you in the process of tuning your piano.

There is certainly more to your tale than you seem to be willing or able to reveal. But your tale doesn't cohere, so I wonder just what it is you want to deceive us about, and why.
_________________________
Mike
Registered Piano Technician
Member Piano Technicians Guild
Not currently working in the piano trade.

Top
#626351 - 03/07/05 09:24 AM Re: help needed--recording an aural tuning with an accutuner!
Bill Bremmer RPT Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3237
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Hmmm, I'll not comment on Mike's point of view although I do find it interesting. I tuned entirely by ear from 1969 (proud "graduate" of the American School of Piano Tuning) to 1991 when I was compelled to buy an Accu-Tuner because without owning one, I could not learn to efficiently and properly operate it well enough to sever as one of PTG's Tuning Examiners.

It was very difficult and foreign to me. I essentially have the same problem now trying to learn the TuneLab program. To answer your question about whether the Accu-Tuner will be able to reproduce your favorite tuner's tuning accurately, well, "yes, but no, it all depends" is the answer.

There are several different issues. There are two ways, well maybe even three ways of recording a pitch. One is to find the "prompt" sound, that is what it detects immediately upon striking the key, the other is to find where it settles in and a third might be somewhere in between. Another issue is about whether you record the pitch of the whole unison or just the center string. It does make a difference.

Then, it depends on how well the subsequent tuner makes the piano "hold on" to the program. In the end, you have to be able to play each key and have the pattern be still and if that isn't happening, the piano isn't "holding on" to the program. I have my own way of dealing with all of these issues and because I always do things a certain way, the results always come out the way I expect. I'm not at all sure I could just give my Accu-Tuner to another tuner, have him/her use one of my programs and expect the piano to sound like I had tuned it. Some similarity, I suppose but not really the same.

That's one reason why I have never trusted the use of those "correction figures" in tuning a nonequal temperament using the Accu-Tuner's FAC program or a similar program with any other device. Oh, you'll get something different by using them all right but is it really what is intended? I wouldn't bet two cents on it.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

Top
#626352 - 03/07/05 09:46 AM Re: help needed--recording an aural tuning with an accutuner!
Casalborgone Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 1046
Loc: San Francisco Area
Bill's point about which point in the Accu-tuner display rotation is the target is very apt.

You can't really talk about piano tuning usefully without having done it.

For instance I, with some experience tuning, am aware of the issue regarding the Accu-tuner display vs time. I have discussed this issue with other tuners, but I have what I would call a less sophisticated perspective than Bill has. I think that Bill's articulation of this issue is a gift (among many he has generously given here) and something I will want to think about.

Certainly Bill is one of the most thoughtful and accomplished tuners there are, and we are lucky he hangs around here.

With regard to the pique predicament, I wondered, but did not think to ask until just now, why her two tuners could not simply get together and talk about, and work on, a "perfect" tuning for her piano. Actually, they would not even have to meet one another, because if one is following the other, and both are aural tuners exclusively, they should get a good idea of each other's methods simply by listening to the piano.
_________________________
Mike
Registered Piano Technician
Member Piano Technicians Guild
Not currently working in the piano trade.

Top
#626353 - 03/07/05 09:54 AM Re: help needed--recording an aural tuning with an accutuner!
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
bill, thanks for coming back to answer my questions. much appreciated. you are getting right to the heart of what we have been wondering about.


 Quote:
Originally posted by Bill Bremmer RPT:
Hmmm, I'll not comment on Mike's point of view although I do find it interesting. [/b]
as i think some famous cartoon character used to say, 'veeery interesting... but stupid.' in my wildest imagination i cannot fathom what such a deception that mike imagines could be. guess i'm just not experienced enough in piano technology to understand. ;\)


 Quote:
I tuned entirely by ear from 1969 (proud "graduate" of the American School of Piano Tuning) to 1991 when I was compelled to buy an Accu-Tuner because without owning one, I could not learn to efficiently and properly operate it well enough to sever as one of PTG's Tuning Examiners.

It was very difficult and foreign to me. I essentially have the same problem now trying to learn the TuneLab program. [/b]
then you do understand the challenges my tuner faced when confronted with trying to use an accutuner for the first time. he's been an aural tuner for 25 or 30 years. he doesn't "get" the accutuner. in frustration, he asked me to figure it out! the manual appears to be very clear and straightforward, but i find it ambiguous. i know what partials are, but i couldn't tell from the instructions if i was supposed to play the partial or the fundamental. neither could the tech who was with me.


 Quote:
To answer your question about whether the Accu-Tuner will be able to reproduce your favorite tuner's tuning accurately, well, "yes, but no, it all depends" is the answer.

There are several different issues. There are two ways, well maybe even three ways of recording a pitch. One is to find the "prompt" sound, that is what it detects immediately upon striking the key, the other is to find where it settles in and a third might be somewhere in between. Another issue is about whether you record the pitch of the whole unison or just the center string. It does make a difference.[/b]
here's what we did: we recorded the tone that came just after the initial attack. we recorded just the center string of the unisons, the others were damped off.

however, later on, i recorded the whole piano again on my laptop, using the basic sound recording software that came with it, and the built in mic. this was so that possibly in future i could record it onto tunelab. in that recording, i recorded the whole of the unisons, nothing was damped off. i don't know which method is preferred, but the second time around i didn't have a choice as my friend was on his way back home, and i didn't want to try damping the strings myself.

 Quote:
Then, it depends on how well the subsequent tuner makes the piano "hold on" to the program. In the end, you have to be able to play each key and have the pattern be still and if that isn't happening, the piano isn't "holding on" to the program. I have my own way of dealing with all of these issues and because I always do things a certain way, the results always come out the way I expect. I'm not at all sure I could just give my Accu-Tuner to another tuner, have him/her use one of my programs and expect the piano to sound like I had tuned it. Some similarity, I suppose but not really the same.[/b]
this makes perfect sense to me and is exactly what we were wondering. the second tech may have a different touch or interpret the lights slightly differently.

if i am with the second tech, having witnessed how the first tech recorded, and actually having been the one depressing the keys and noting their volume and at what point we were choosing to register the lights (right after the initial attack), i imagine it will help to make his reproduction of it more consistent if i show him what we did. is that right?

anyway, i appreciate any further insight you can share. and may i contact you by phone or email?
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

Top
#626354 - 03/07/05 11:46 AM Re: help needed--recording an aural tuning with an accutuner!
Jens Schlosser Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/31/02
Posts: 262
Loc: Leipzig, Germany
ChickGrand,

I wouldn't want to think about the "beating unisons" as a method to improve the sustain in the high treble when there is already a good sustain and I have never tried it in such a situation. But there are some pianos which have such a clean sound in the high treble, that when all 3 strings of a unison are perfectly in tune the tone sounds very clean but dies out too quickly. In that situation I might give one of the strings a slight beat, so that the tone doesn't die out so fast. I can't tell you any numbers, although I use TuneLab as well. But I always tune the unisons by ear and therefore make the corrections in the highest treble by ear as well, if necessary.

I think you can just use trial and error to see if it gives you an improvement or not. If it is interesting for you I can make measurements next time I come across such a situation.

Best regards,
Jens

Top
#626355 - 03/07/05 11:56 AM Re: help needed--recording an aural tuning with an accutuner!
ChickGrand Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 3231
Loc: Midwest U.S.
Thanks Jens. That's as I would expect. My sustain in the high treble is good with very clean unisons now with only the slightest bit of decrease in sustain in the top 3-4 where I might want to try that technique. Sounds to me like a sort of fudge factor to add just a little to those few notes that may need the illusion of the texture of a mild beat to mimic what our ears hear as changing texture of sustain from attack to decay. The only one I'd say is clearly not at least in a rather log line in those last few is actually C8 which I don't much care about, but I'll try this technique by ear on the last couple to see if I like the effect. I wouldn't want to use such a technique where sustain is actually good because then the duration of sustain would last long enough for the beating to be apparent as just that. But in those last 3-4, it might be just what I want to really polish that top octave which is otherwise quite good. So I do appreciate the mention and explanation.

Top
#626356 - 03/07/05 02:32 PM Re: help needed--recording an aural tuning with an accutuner!
Jens Schlosser Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/31/02
Posts: 262
Loc: Leipzig, Germany
piqu,

I've re-read your answer to my first post on this topic. I hope you didn't mean me, when you wrote:

"once again i am overcome with amazement of the sheer arrogance of some on this particular list."

I just wanted to suggest you get some more technical background before you make statements like this:

"there is more to tuning unisons, for the aural tuner who tuned my piano, than making them beatless."

Basically your statement is not true. A unison will always have to be beatless, there is no room for modifying anything within a unison. Actually it is a reason to call a tuner if there are (noticeable) beats in a unison. Some strings have false beats so that the tuner needs to make compromises but don't call this a special way of tuning unisons because the goal will always be to get a unison to sound as clear as possible.

Maybe your tuner told you something about his special way of unison-tuning. If he did, he didn't tell you the truth or you didn't understand that he had to make compromises due to false beats in the strings or other reasons. But this wouldn't qualify as a special way of tuning unisons, because there's no such thing.

Basically I appreciate your effort to keep your piano in tune, I wish that every piano owner would do this. As I said earlier it is a good thing to have some technical background when discussing technical questions. If you don't have, you won't understand some arguments or make wrong conclusions. Piano tuning is an art, that's for sure, but it is also about physics. Most, if not all aspects of piano tuning can be described and explored by physical laws. That won't change anything, it would still be an art. Just because you have found a gifted tuner it doesn't mean he really knows (technically) what he does (and is able to explain what he does). He might give you some esoteric explanations which may be right or may be wrong from another perspective. I just want to make sure that you don't state things as facts (in a forum which is read by many people in the world) which most technicians will not agree upon (most of all: tuning unisons to somewhat else than beatless).

"i think i have really just been wasting my time here. i regret coming to this group with any questions or interest. i find much more useful and authoritative information in RL, with technicians who are kind, generous, and gracious in their dealings with pianists, rather than arrogant."

Well, I doubt you wasted your time. In a way the piano is something (maybe even) magic to all of us. What I dislike about your statements in general is that you use the word arrogant or arrogance quite often. You think you found techs in real life beeing more kind, generous and gracious, but what do you think are the techs here in this forum that answer your questions? They are kind and generous. They don't get any money for what they do, their motivation is intrinsic, they want to share their knownledge and maybe ask a question once in a while. I would call this generous. I'm reading here quite a lot and post only seldom since I post only when I have something to say, but I always make it clear that I'm thankful when I recceive useful information.

So, maybe a little bit more modesty, piqu?

Best regards,
Jens

Top
#626357 - 03/07/05 03:07 PM Re: help needed--recording an aural tuning with an accutuner!
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
that's it, i'm through with being patronized and treated with disrespect.

those of you here who actually carefully read my questions, answered the actual questions i asked, and responded in a thoughtful and respectful way: thank you, you have my deep appreciation.
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

Top
#626358 - 03/07/05 05:47 PM Re: help needed--recording an aural tuning with an accutuner!
Piano Guy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 400
Loc: Southern Ontario,Canada
Pique said


"the person who did tune it has forgotten more than some of you ever knew. "


Maybe not entirely arrogant, BUT CERTAINLY PRESUMPTUOUS. This statement then becomes arrogant because you now presume to know not only everything your two tuners know, but know what anybody has who tunes pianos knows.
_________________________
Richard, the"Piano Guy"
Piano Moving Tuning & Repair
From London ON to Fort Erie ON

Top
#626359 - 03/07/05 06:56 PM Re: help needed--recording an aural tuning with an accutuner!
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
i presume to know everything my two tuners know? say what!? where did you get that one?

this is my last post in this forum.
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

Top
#626360 - 03/07/05 07:41 PM Re: help needed--recording an aural tuning with an accutuner!
Piano Guy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 400
Loc: Southern Ontario,Canada
because you said my tuner has forgotten more than most of us know. That presumes to say you know everything he knows...in order to make that statement. I thinks its clear as mud. Asking questions on a forum is one thing...statements are quite another.
_________________________
Richard, the"Piano Guy"
Piano Moving Tuning & Repair
From London ON to Fort Erie ON

Top
#626361 - 03/08/05 08:24 PM Re: help needed--recording an aural tuning with an accutuner!
Sam Casey Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/05
Posts: 1135
Loc: SW Missouri
Oh boy. She's "piqued" again.

Top
#626362 - 03/09/05 08:11 PM Re: help needed--recording an aural tuning with an accutuner!
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
"we think the wild card may be the unisons, that the choices an aural tuner would make for tuning the unisons might be different than the ones the machine would make.

there is more to tuning unisons, for the aural tuner who tuned my piano, than making them beatless.[/b]

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA!!!!!

hold it... I can't....can't...wheeze..puff... can't catch my breath......

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!

this is my last post in this forum.[/b]

No! No! Keep posting! I'm writing a book, and need this kind of material. It's a comedy, for the tech trade. I'm gonna call it...

"That'll Make You Go Blind, and other things customers have told me".........

Whooo.... I gotta go pee.......
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA!!!!!

.....Hey, I know! Load it up in a truck and haul it to Arizona and let that guy who wrote the book on voicing do the unisons. Surely if he wrote the book on voicing, he wrote the book on unisons too!...

BWAHAHAHAHHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAa!!
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

Top
#626363 - 03/10/05 07:22 AM Re: help needed--recording an aural tuning with an accutuner!
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1664
Loc: Chicagoland
Hey Larry,

Your slip is showing! Honestly... do a little research, maybe work on something better than a Wurli console and get back to us. Still using outdated technology to tune?
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


Top
#626364 - 03/10/05 07:31 AM Re: help needed--recording an aural tuning with an accutuner!
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
Maybe she should load it up in a truck and haul it to *you* to get her unisons tuned. Apparently you have numerous ways to tune unisons. Surely between the two of you, with the help of a machine, you can figure it out.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

Top
#626365 - 03/10/05 07:52 AM Re: help needed--recording an aural tuning with an accutuner!
Paulo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/25/04
Posts: 134
Loc: qubec
Rontuner, why do you say that to Larry? I don't understand. Please explain. Obviously Larry is laughing at Piqu, which isn't very nice but she's been making statements that are kinda weird wouldn't you say? Paulo
_________________________
independent tuner/tech

Top
#626366 - 03/10/05 08:15 AM Re: help needed--recording an aural tuning with an accutuner!
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1664
Loc: Chicagoland
Hi Paulo,

What is the _width_ of a beatless unison? That is, using the best machines available, what is the measurable difference between the three strings of a unison? It's not zero, so how much is it, why isn't it zero, and how do the best aural tuners get it there? These are questions that can lead you beyond where you are now.

I admit, that in reality, most clients can't tell the difference between a good tuning and a great tuning. Heck, some clients can't tell the difference between a piano that is tuned, and one that hasn't been tuned in years.

But... there are those clients that have ears to rival the best tuners around. And, they most likely approach the tuning with a musical ear, rather than a "temperament-beat-counting ear. A tech can either dismiss them, explain away their concerns, or roll up the sleeves and go looking for what is being percieved by the (paying) client.

I don't know Pique, or her piano, but I don't see her "quest", or any of the information as weird at all. Not the standard line, but not unknown in the industry.
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


Top
#626367 - 03/10/05 08:28 AM Re: help needed--recording an aural tuning with an accutuner!
Paulo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/25/04
Posts: 134
Loc: qubec
Rontuner, "These are questions that can lead you beyond where you are now." Geez, thanks for the vote of confidence. Unisons should be beatless right? I'm an aural tuner by the way and my goal is to please the human MUSICAL ear, not some mathematician. I still don't get it. What's your point?
_________________________
independent tuner/tech

Top
#626368 - 03/10/05 08:51 AM Re: help needed--recording an aural tuning with an accutuner!
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1664
Loc: Chicagoland
Well....

Try this: unisons should please the human MUSICAL ear. The machine is only there as a measuring device after the unison is set. What makes for the most musical unison? No, you shouldn't be able to hear a beat, but in the best instruments, there is some width to the unison before a beat is perceived. That is the place where this fine manipulation takes place. Could be you are already doing this - not just making them beatless, but instead finding the "best" unison.

The point is that there isn't just one location for the three strings that renders them beatless. Does it matter to everyone to find the absolute most musical place for those three strings to be? Of course not. But for some, nothing less comes close.
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


Top
#626369 - 03/10/05 09:05 AM Re: help needed--recording an aural tuning with an accutuner!
Paulo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/25/04
Posts: 134
Loc: qubec
I agree completetly. I guess Piqu would have to measure all three strings individually for all notes. Can't be much fun for the tuner to replicate the original tuning. I would even go as far as saying that with fluctuating conditions the measured tuning would probably not "measure" up. No pun intended. The point is to make unisons beatless to the human ear. (Wether they are in reality or not is irelevant)If Piqu wants to make experiments, that's fine by me. I just wouldn't want to be the tuner to replicate the original tuning, I would just tell her to try mine or phone the other guy. Paulo
_________________________
independent tuner/tech

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >

Moderator:  Piano World 
What's Hot!!
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
ad (Casio)
Celviano by Casio Rebate
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Seiler Pianos
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Music stores in Boston
by Jamie_from_Canada
Today at 09:39 AM
Need a stool of some kind
by GeorgeStorm
Today at 09:19 AM
Schoenberg's Kammersymphonie Op. 9 (for piano)
by jeffreyjones
Today at 08:48 AM
Old Schumann Upright
by UnrightTooner
Today at 08:24 AM
For sale: stand & monitors (used with MP11)...
by mrmacmusic
Today at 07:38 AM
Who's Online
143 registered (accordeur, ajames, amt976, alexbergauer, 40 invisible), 1583 Guests and 18 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
76385 Members
42 Forums
157919 Topics
2319234 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission