Does anybody have any interesting tips and tricks that they would like to share on bass section tuning? How do you like to stretch your bass section? Any interesting tests or checks you particularly like? And how do you come out of the midsection to the tenor break? How about tuning the extreme bass?

Jordan

I do whatever works in the bass. On a good piano, I'll tune down by fifths from the temperament and check with octaves, thirds, 10ths, and 17ths. I will play a four note chord in the bass to check for errors, ie: c2, e2, g2, and c3. (when tuning c2). I check all intervals about every 1/2 octave as I tune down and make corrections. I'll also play 4 note chords in the right with a double octave in the bass down in chromatic steps to find errors, which stand out as I descend down. On smaller scaled pianos, I might tune down by octaves, double octaves, or fifths. It just depends. On the last few notes (lft hand side) I tune them as flat as possible to make them sound deeper. Playing down chromatically there helps check as well as playing them as octaves combined with a four note treble chord. I also play fifths in the bass with a four note treble chord, chromatically down to about f1 as a check. The bass is more what sounds good, not what beats good. One doesn't always equal the other.

Since you tune with fifths in the bass, is there a point at which you can say the fifths usually become completely pure? Or are there any rules of thumb with the fifths you use; like a fifth should never be faster than .5 bps or something (I know you tune more by what sounds right but I'm dealing with not being completly sure of what "sounds right" ).

How do you extend your temperament down to the tenor break? I've been a little unsure of how slow my 3rds should slow down there. Do you tune these last couple of notes (before the break) as a 2:1 4:2 or 6:3 octave? Checks or tests? Thanks for your help.

Jordan

The type of octave in the tenor depends on the piano and if the strings are wound or steel. In the temperament, fifths are narrow, but get more pure as you tune away from the temperament. In fact, fifths can end up being expanded if the octaves are really stretched. If you tune a perfect fifth, you are stretching the octave. Usually, tuning perfect fifths just outside the temperament stretches the octaves too much there. On my f-f temperament (which is already stretched), I usually don't stretch till the bass break on most smaller pianos, but it depends on the piano. If I tuned an non-stretched temperament, I'd start stretching octaves sooner.

As slowing thirds go, a temperament can be tuned with thirds rapidly slowing over the temperament (which usually leads to problems), or with thirds slowly decreasing, which is continued as you tune down to the bass. On a good piano with a good temperament, thirds, sixths, 10ths, and 17ths all slowly decrease in speed as you play down to the bass and the fifths do eventually get pure.

Some hints: You need to hit the keys simultaneously when comparing intervals. This is especially so in the bass. There is a slight decrease in the pitch as notes decay, and you want it to happen equally on both notes.

You may hear a beat which you cannot get rid of without making another beat worse. A compromise is called for, but make sure that you make the same compromise on all the notes. That is, if a beat is audible on one note, and you cannot eliminate it without making another beat worse, make sure that you make the same beat audible in adjacent notes, not the other one. Your goal is uniformity.

Voicing often improves things.

Sometimes you just need to listen to the note and make sure that it sounds right compared to its octave or some other interval. In this case, you would not strike them simultaneously.

Do not fret over the lowest notes too much. They can be problematic even on concert grands. The difference between the notes is really small, so a cent there is imperceivable. A stray gust of wind could even make an ETD give a false reading of several cents. Your sense of pitch is all that you have to rely on. It will develop with time and experience. Just make it sound as good as you can.

Another hint - The bass section on most pianos is unstable - even a small pitch change will shift the bridge apron and take the whole bass section out of tune. Raise the bass section so it is within 1-2 beats before fine tuning or your time will be wasted. Of coarse, lack of a bridge apron in larger pianos eliminates this issue.

Ok moving on to bass unisons now Does anyone have a clear preference for which partial to tune out? Jim Coleman in Randy's video tapes says that tuning out the 3rd partial first is good, and then tuning out the 6th will give you a more accurate unison. Anybody have any thoughts on this? What is your method?

Jordan

Because higher partials are farther from "pure" than lower ones, in any unison the lower partials will merge first, until you're just left with the "cat's meows" of the upper ones.

Tune out the highest partials you can hear, and they'll all line up. This goes for bass or treble.

I'd follow anything Jim Coleman says!

--Cy--

I thought that you can't really tune all the partials to match up in the bass so you have to pick one to hone in on. He says in the video to pay particular attention to the "predominant" partials. To me this means partials up to the 7th, but I could be wrong. I havn't spent too much time trying to tune out other higher partials in the bass but I think that if I tune out the 8th partial I get a kind of unstable 1st and second and maybe third partial. Do you ever tune to the 8th partial or higher? Do you spend the time to ghost your bass unisons to get it right on spot? Thanks again

Jordan

There is an antinode at the overtone corresponding to that fraction of the string where the hammer strike point is. This tends to minimize the partials around the 7th through 9th and above. Of course, they are there as a result of the Fourier series that approximates the periodic motion of the string, but they are not as strong as the other partials. Just do not worry too much about which partial you are working on. Just reread my second paragraph above, and practice, practice, practice!

Want to hear some great bass intonation? Listen to Edgar Meyer!

BDB, Are you refering to bass octaves or bass unisons or both? I started talking about unisons without really announcing it

"This tends to minimize the partials around the 7th through 9th and above."

Are you saying I shouldn't be trying to tune out partials above the 6th? How can I get a precise and consistant tuning without worrying about what partial I'm tuning? What other marker for accuracy is there?


"You may hear a beat which you cannot get rid of without making another beat worse. A compromise is called for, but make sure that you make the same compromise on all the notes."

This is from when were were talking octave tuning. Isn't it just easier to pick an octave style (6:3 8:4 etc) and tune that partial pure? wouldn't that give you more consistancy and accuracy?

Who is Edgar Meyer?

Jordan

In a good piano, with strings in good condition and that match each other, of course you can match up all the partials. The only way you would not be able to is if the inharmonicity were different for each string (right?).

I have to say I don't think about it much anymore; I just tune them to be as quiet as I can get them. Sometimes it takes a little moving around. On pianos where it's difficult to get things to settle, it's easier: just make the most obvious beats quiet. Tuning is all about compromise!

No, I don't ghost partials in unisons; not helpful to me.

--Cy--

P.S. And by all means, go to a local PTG meeting, where people love to talk about this. Here are the locations in your region:
http://ptg.org/aboutUs-chaptersAndRegions.php?region=1

Cy,

Thanks for the reply. Tuning IS all about compromise; thats a good thing to be reminded. I forget that easily because right now I'm trying to hear and do everything as "correctly" as I can so I can know what I'm shooting for.

I went to my first PTG meeting last month and it was informative, I just didn't know how many "learner" questions people wanted to hear I guess I feel more comfortable asking questions here, and everyone's very helpful. Certainly I'll continue going though. There are a couple meetings in states nearby; do you know if I can attend meetings of chapters I'm not a member of? Right now I'm waiting for membership in CT. Thanks again.

Jordan

I think you can join any chapter that's convenient for you. When I lived in WV, we had no meetings, so I drove down to Roanoke, VA.

--Cy--

I've been tuning for 40 years, tutor tuning for PTG and I have never listened to partials while tuning any kind of unison. One of PTG's most respected tuners, Virgil Smith RPT also discounts and even disrecommends trying to listen for partials. Different techniques sometimes work for different people but my opinion is that trying to isolate partials when tuning unisons or any other interval for that matter makes tuning more complicated and difficult than it is or should be. All I have ever done is listen for the cleanest purest, most beatless sound as can be had and nothing more.

On the PTG Chapter meeting question, ask Sandy at the PTG Home Office (Sandy@ptg.org) for the names and contact info of the Chapter Presidents of the Chapters whose meetings you wish to attend. Send them an e-mail and tell them you would like to attend meeting and for them to put you on their e-mail list. Most have an e-mailed Chapter newsletter which will inform you of the dates, times and subject matter of the meeting technical session. This is very commonly done when there are chapters within easy driving distance of each other.

Maybe this is just "old school." I was taught that throughout the piano's range, the fundamental is king in the unison. On very fine work, hold the note down almost to the point of die-off, and get any roll out of that fundamental.. or as much as humanly possible . Of course, the other partials matter, too... but just not as much (generally speaking).


If you are using an extension hammer, sometimes extending it to a much longer than usual length can help you get the feel for making the tinyiest micro-adjustments, until you get comfortable with the hammer (assuming you're not impact tuning).

So far,I have been setting my tenor/treble temperament,tune the treble,and finish with the bass.The bass I set using octaves.I check with 3rds,fifths,sixths,and octaves as I go along.

A lot of this usually goes well with a piano that has been maintained regularly.It's the neglected ones which usually need more attention while setting temperaments and octaves,sometimes I find myself redoing some notes during a pitch raise.

I'm with you on doing the bass last. If for no other reason, after doing the high treble, it's all down hill from there. It let's you unwind after being keyed up.

Good point Bill! Another good reason is that it gives the rest of the tuning a few minutes to season. After tuning the bass, you can give one last listen to all the unisons in the tenor and treble, and sometimes find a couple that can be tightened up.

Jordan:

Sorry to jump in late.

The bass strings on many pianos have what I call “random partials”. Whether tuning octaves or unisons, some partials will match up better than others. These pianos are usually shorter pianos where the iH is changing and eventually increasing toward A0. I like to tune the octaves on pianos like this a little wider than what sounds “best” or “least bad” so that the double octaves sound “about as good” or “nearly as bad” as the single octaves. Some unisons will not sound correct, no matter what you try. I’ve been considering leaving all the wound unison a tiny bit “wet” on pianos that have this problem so that the poorer unisons do not stick out so much….

There are some tests that I use to keep the stretch in the bass even. They are the 12:6 single octave (m10-m3) and the 12:3 (m10-M6) double octave tests. The 12:3 is usable all the way to A0. Now just how fast either of these tests show that the octave type beats depends on what you are doing with your stretch. It is just a way of keeping track of it. Also, fifths are sometimes hard to hear. Listening to the 12ths and 19ths, which should sound nearly pure, is another good check.

Expect a jump in beat rates when transitioning from unwound to wound strings and again from double to single unisons. I give more weight to the octave tests across breaks than to progressively beating RBIs. If a scaling has a sudden decrease in iH, then wide RBIs are going to beat faster across the break than just above or below, unless the octaves are adjusted.