Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum To Repair or Not to Repair - 1929 Steinway Upright

Newbie here to "pianoworld" and a "renewbie" to the piano world at large. Began taking lessons a few months ago after a 40 year hiatus and am sure glad to be doing so. Rented digital for a few months - until I felt committed to continuing. Recently purchased a 1929 Steinway Upright; $1,500; Model V;48" ht; keys had been replaced; mahogany case in fairly good condition. After 1 month acclimation in my condo, tuner tuned, lubed pins of sticking keys and installed damper.

Unfortunately, several notes (the number is increasing), have begun to "twang". Additionally, action and tone are very uneven.

A reputable PTG performed a thorough evaluation and indicates the poor piano needs all new dampers ("twang" solution), new hammers, lubing all pins, voicing, and regulation with an estimated cost of betw. 4k and 5k., to truly bring piano to its potential.

Caveat: The top 15 treble notes have very short sustain and will remain so after spending big bucks. I had not noticed the "quick decay" of these notes until the technician alerted me.

For me this is big bucks and currently beyond budget, but is doable over time.

The dealer I purchased from is willing to trade back the Steinway for a used Yamaha U1 or U3, but I've already tried several and they are not at all to my liking. He might even fully refund the Steinway, but then I'm back to renting until I find a decent used upright.

I would be sad to part with the sound of the Steinway and am not concerned about resale value, but don't want to foolishly throw money at the instrument either. (To keep things in perspective, I'm learning Mozart's Sonata in A Major and those octave scales are no piece of cake for me.)

Thanks in advance for any helpful thoughts/suggestions.

Laura M

The V is my favorite Steinway upright, but it is a lot of work to restore them properly. Much of the work is finding someone who can do it properly, rather than just adapting the action to available parts.

Twanging usually means poor tuning. Dampers will only be the problem if it happens upon releasing the key or damper pedal, or very rarely, as the key or pedal is pressed, but before the hammer hits the string. It is not something that comes and goes. The dampers may make noise when they are lifted or lowered, or they may allow sound to escape after they are on the string (which may not be correct, but usually is something you can live with). If this is not what is happening, you need another opinion. Incidentally, old Steinway dampers and felts are not standard items, and are difficult to duplicate properly. Even their springs are wound backwards from everyone else's, another problem.

Old Steinway uprights are a mixed blessing. They were wonderful pianos. In the right set of circumstances they may be again, but it takes the right person and a lot of money to get it there.

Thanks BDB. As I rarely see the V Model mentioned, I'm glad to hear you like it. The twanging is upon release of keys and depends upon how quickly the key is released. The tuner (PTG) actually came twice as the problem was not resolved. More keys are beginning to do the same. I happenned upon another tech in my area who says she just rebuilt a Steinway K upright and she will be coming this wknd to give a 2nd opinion.

PS, would you say I'm in the right forum for this topic?

I'm sure you're in the right forum.

As your dealer is prepared to offer a trade, or even a full refund, I think you have a very clear choice. Send it back!

Instead of costing $1500, your piano is now going to cost $5000 when you factor in the repairs -- assuming you can find someone to do them.

I think it would be much less hassle to find another piano -- extending your budget up to $5000 if you need to.

Laura, I would tend to agree with Bruce. 4-5k is a lot for a partial action rebuild. If the center pins are corroded, vertigris, which is common in Steinways, lubrication won't fix them and there are over 225 center pins and bushings. Not to mention over 225 springs that are 80 years old, tuning pins, strings etc. Often I've found that if you repair the obvious problems, less obvious one's reveal themselves. Once you're that far in, sooner or later you'll be restringing it. Really, it's kind of like restoring an old house.
Unless you want to take this on as a project, you'd be better off with a more functional piano and you could start a fund to buy a better instrument later.

I had this conversation with an RPT from my local university today- his opinion was the V is something worth working on, whereas Steinway's old consoles were not...
The U1 or U3 are not comparable to the Steinway V--- however you might want to look around for a used Yamaha U7, they are rare and valuable, but I have a few customers who were able to find them for under $2000 in perfect condition.

Thanks all. Brucee & Artisan - your assessments were very clear-cut and my reaction to reading them is very revealing: I was disappointed! I don't know where to find a piano with as warm & rich a sound for </=$3K. I can't spend $5K now and would have to rent at $35/mo in btwn, which could go on for months until stumbling on a good fit. I do certainly get the "old house remodel" metaphor though. RPT said the strings are good & am checking with him today to see if center pins, bushings & springs are included in the $4-5K estimate.

Richard, funny how small the world seems thru the web! You were conversing on the Steinway V and I found an ad on Craig's list yesterday for a fully rebuilt Steinway K. It was 8.5K - way over my budget, but curiosity led me to call. I was upfront with seller and it turns out she's an RPT since 1984 and rebuilt this K herself. She'll be giving me an onsite 2nd opinion on my V this Saturday.

Meanwhile, I'll remember your suggestion re: U7.

Hope you all will reply again when I get further info. Thanks so much! Laura

Laura,

I understand your attachment to the Steinway sound, even in its deteriorated condition. I believe that you would be truly heartsick if you traded it for another piano such as a Yamaha or other brand priced the same as what you paid for the Steinway. Just imagine how one of those would sound at 78 years!

Technicians who do complete restorations (I do not) often think in terms of "all or nothing at all (half a job never appealed to me"... ((to paraphrase the old song)), ). So, take that into account as you evaluate the various opinions you are offered, both on this forum and from the people to whom you talk directly.

What people have said about the verdigris problem is true. Verdigris is the corrosion that brass and copper produce (brass being part copper). Rust on iron is red but oxidation of copper is green. If you've ever seen the green roofs of old buildings in Europe or Quebec City, that is what you are seeing. There are various opinions as to why, but whatever the reasons are, both Steinway uprights and grands from the early part of the 20th Century are well known for having this problem. The verdigris has a volume of its own and it also increases the friction because it is sticky. Therefore, these old piano actions tend to freeze up, especially if they go for long periods without being played.

It is like a chronic disease which is incurable but often can be treated symptomatically. In the mid to late 1980's, a designer lubricant was developed called Protek® which temporarily dissolves verdigris and is used by many piano technicians for other lubricating applications as well. In some marginal cases, it is all an action needs to get going again. In others, yearly reapplication is needed but in some severe cases, it won't help much at all, if any.

There is, however another treatment for the more severe cases which will often work called a shrinking solution. Most technicians use alcohol and water but a more effective treatment is to first apply pure acetone to all of the action centers (the joints between any moving parts). This is best done on a warm, sunny day in the sunlight if possible, out on the porch or patio. Apply pure acetone from a "hypo-oiler" such as Schaff Piano Supply and other piano supply houses sell. Work all of the moving parts firmly by hand to dissolve and break up the oxidation. Then, fill the bottle half full of acetone and fill it the rest of the way with distilled water. Shake the bottle vigorously to mix the acetone and water. Then, reapply to all of the action centers and work them again firmly by hand. Allow it to dry in the hot sun and breeze if possible. If not, a hair dryer will also work. A heat gun may also be used.

The way this works is completely different from a lubricant. The acetone will dissolve and break up the sticky consistency and volume of the verdigris but it is the water itself which will provide effective loosening of the tight joints. The acetone carries the water into the surrounding wood and temporarily swells it. During the swelling, it compresses the felt but as the wetness evaporates, especially with heat, the felt shrinks even more so, leaving the action center freely moving. Since the acetone and water evaporate completely in a short period of time, there is no contaminating residue. If there is any lingering sluggishness, the Protek® lubricant may be applied or it may be applied in any case to leave the lubricating polymers it contains which will help keep the centers moving freely long after the treatment.

Considering your attachment to the piano but without the funds to replace action parts which are VERY expensive and quite difficult to replace and provide good alignment, I would suggest the reconditioning route at this point while you perhaps build a savings fund for restoration in the future. The hammers may be reshaped to provide a good, even tone. This will make them smaller, of course but a technician who knows how to regulate a vertical action well will know how to compensate for the smaller size. If the hammers are really thoroughly spent, it is possible to replace just the hammer heads but you really have to have confidence that the person doing it knows how to do that well and make a nice, even appearing job of it.

I suspect that the "twang" you hear as the dampers close against the strings is caused by a "crust" which has formed on them. Dampers can be "voiced" just as hammers can. Each surface can be gently scraped with the same tool as is used to reshape hammers. The block dampers are fairly easy to treat but the wedges take more time and careful attention so as not to tear or deform them.

Unless the springs are so brittle that they are breaking, they can be re-tensioned. It is not difficult to do. Simply disengage the spring, and bend it at the fulcrum out fully 90 degrees opposite the direction it normally resists then put them back into place. A technician should know how to do this with a spring hook. After voicing the damper felts and re-tensioning the springs, the dampers will often work well again and with no noise of their own. If the damper felts really are very hard and compacted, replacing them can be considered but as BDB said, you have to find special and expensive replacement material and regulating after replacement can also be time consuming and costly.

The keys should all be removed from the keybed and all of the dust and debris vacuumed out. If the felts are deteriorated, they can all be replaced at a cost that is not at all prohibitive. In the case of replacement however, the keys will all have to be thoroughly leveled and dip reestablished, not just the normal touch up level and dip which would otherwise be required. The keypins can be polished or also lubricated with Protek®. If the key bushings are severely worn, key rebushing is not a very costly service, nor is keytop replacement if necessary but you'll lose the precious character of the original ivory.

I am not sure what the short sustain problem is in the high treble but I suspect that it is the bridge cap splitting. It is a common problem but it is easily remedied without going to the expense of recapping the bridge which is more in line with rebuilding and complete restoration. It can be repaired with epoxy or even better and easier with applications of low viscosity, followed by high viscosity CA glue (commonly known as "Super" glue). I wrote a detailed post a while back on this that you can find by searching the Forum's archives.

All of these techniques, except for the replacement of the hammers and dampers should only cost hundreds of dollars as opposed to thousands or tens of thousands. They'll give your piano a decade or more of useful life. My opinion is that a 78 year old Steinway is not all that old. Most of those instruments can last up to and over 100 years before requiring complete restoration. Only very heavily played instruments and/or those which have been damaged by very adverse conditions may need replacement of fundamentals such as the soundboard, bridges and pinblock any sooner than that.

Good luck finding the right technician for your needs and budget!

Wow Bill, Lots of info - thanks - and you're right, I might be heartsick.

RPT did explain the verdigris issue and used Protech on a test key. If I pursue recondition/restoration options he will evaluate more extensively to determine if Protech would be effective. At that time we can discuss the acetone method you describe.

Re: hammers, many have been reshaped before and RPT indicated hammer replacement is warranted.

Hammer Heads w/Shanks & Butts $2,500
Hammer Heads only $1,000

Re: dampers, he did not mention crusting, but I can look. Some need replacement now, but perhaps others could be just cleaned for now.

All Dampers Rplcmt $1,000
Spring Retensioning 1 hour
Spring Rplcmt $ 400

Keys had been replaced prior to purchase and RPT thought job was well done. Hurrah!

Last, but not of least import is the short sustain of upper register. RPT plucked strings, but don't recall him saying anything about condition of bridge. Also, someone else suggested checking strikepoints. So....prior to proceeding with reviving V, I will raise these points w/RPT.

RPT seems to understand my feelings about V, and knows I dislike the Yamahas. However, he did suggest trying a Schimmel upright as an alternative, so I will need to schedule a trip to LA to do so. Will also peruse existing posts about Schimmel.

It's so helpful to get such thoughtful and intelligent feedback from all of you! Looking forward to Saturday's 2nd opinion and will get back to you

Laura (on behalf of V)

I think the piano is worth it only if you love it. A piano can be a money hole, so be prepared. Trust your gut not your logic, a piano is an instrument. Maybe think on it for a couple of weeks, as there's no need to rush to a decision.

I also think those prices are high. I had all new hammers (Isaac) put on my shanks, and I did the install then had a tech do a regulation.

$650 new hammers + hung + $200 regulation in home. $850.

I measured my own bass strings and ordered them $350 + installation $300. I did the tuning touch ups to save there (tuning hammer $50). Total $700 My tech had quoted me $1300 for strings including measurement and installation and 3-4 touch up tunings over a month.

oops

Hi Laura,
Given the fact that you might be entertaining the idea of checking out other uprights, as opposed to going the "restoration" route on this V, I would suggest trying a new or used Mason and Hamlin upright as an excellent alternative. They are built like tanks and have tonal characteristics that are closer to the Steinway than a German brand would typically be, although they are still quite unique unto themselves. It costs nothing to try one, and, who knows??
Dan

Restoration of a piano rarely makes sense from a resale perspective, but it can when compared to the cost of purchasing a new piano.

A new Steinway upright is >$15K. A good restoration should result in a piano of comparable quality. (Some people actually prefer rebuilt old Steinways to new ones!)

Spending $1,500 for a fixer-upper Steinway piano + $5,000 for restoration work is still less than half the price of a brand-new Steinway upright. Also, it may be possible to do the repairs in stages to avoid a $5,000 hit all at once.

What did the piano tech say about the "quick decay" of the top octave? Did he/she suspect soundboard or bridge problems? Or would new hammers, strings, and a tuning improve the sustain?

Brian, Dan, Colin,
Your thoughts and suggestions have been added to my decision-making process - thanks.

Re: high pricing for repairs, I am getting another estimate. Pricing of hammers - with or w/o shanks and butts - are for Steinway parts and include labor. Thankfully, the strings and keytops had been replaced by previous owner.

I will be heading to Keyboard Concepts soon to experience the sound/feel of lots of other pianos, and will look particularly for Mason & Hamlins and Schimmels, as suggested. Who knows, perhaps Goldilocks will find the one that's "just right". If I find "the one", I would have a tech check it out before puchasing.

Before buying I also need to make sure my dealer is agreeable to refunding the Steinway. He's hinted at this, but I don't need to broach that topic until I know I'd prefer to take that route.

Re: "quick decay" of V's two upper octaves, the consensus seems to be that it's the soundboard, the bridge, or just the nature of V. Both techs said they'd look at the bridge while working on other parts. But in my decision-making process, I'm going with the assumption that the "quick decay" of the upper register will remain as is.
Thus far this aberance doesn't bother me. However, it may seem more pronouced once other problems are resolved. I am not concerned about re-sale value. Just want a piano I can really enjoy now and in the future. Meanwhile, it's back to those octave stretches in Mozart Sonata K331! Does anyone else like this piece as much as I do?

Thanks again, Laura

Get all your money back from the person
who sold you this piece of junk. This
belongs in a landfill or the woodpile. Note
how strong the power of suggestion is:
after all this you still hesitate to part
with its "great" sound because of
the Steinway decal on it.

Hey-she's had some fun and happiness from it. Or perhaps you will be willing to pay for her next piano?

Hi Laura,

Sent you a private message. GP

Gee Gyro,

Easy now. I did ask for "thoughtful" suggestions. At the outset of my post I made it clear that I am not a Steinway loyalist. Otherwise I wouldn't be bothering to try other manufacturer's pianos.

Do note however, that I could easily have had my eyes closed and still selected this piano.

Laura

Re: "quick decay" of V's two upper octaves, the consensus seems to be that it's the soundboard, the bridge, or just the nature of V. Both techs said they'd look at the bridge while working on other parts. But in my decision-making process, I'm going with the assumption that the "quick decay" of the upper register will remain as is.

So has the soundboard lost its crown I wonder. It would be worthwhile to check.