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hi guys,l have been realy busy of late and have not had any time to post.l have just finished a bechstein upright that had a complete rebuild and re polish and have just recieved a 1892 bechstein grand that got damaged in the summer floods and needs new legs and a re polish(l will post some pics when l can find the lead from the camera to computer!).l am still horrified by some of the questions asked by "have a go heros"and the replies given by so called techs..this is not a job for amateurs,as any tech who has "done the time" will tell!!!!

Hi Eddie, I figured you've been busy. But then I havent been around much in the past couple of weeks either.

But Bud, let me say you have opened a door here, so I will put in my 2 cents (or less) worth. You know I have been reading this forum periodically for several years now. Until the past two or three months, I did more reading than posting. But over the course of the past few weeks, it seems to me participation in this forum has really declined. Many of the old really knowledgable guys seem to have left, and others who are truly professional techs only post sporadically.

Back two or three months ago, there was a thread that suggested a DIY'er forum be created. Well, with all due respect to those here, seems to me this forum is fast becoming a DIY'er Forum. In too many instances, someone asks a valid technical question; the techs will put in an answer, and then here comes a DIY'er with all their "expertise."

Only in rare instances do the non-tech piano players, or the frequent DIY'er really post anything that contributes in any way. I know we have some, who are beginning in the piano technology field, and this in my opinion creates confusion and even a false idea of how a task should be done. I dont have time, nor the desire to post specific instances. People can read back in the threads, and readily see what I am talking about.

But I gotta tell ya, these threads are fast becoming the same old crap over and over again. If there is a moderator in charge of this forum I certainly wish he or she would step forward and lay down some basic rules for non-tech participation. Either that or make it a DIY Forum, and those Techs who want to participate may certainly do so!!!!

Okay, not 2 cents worth, but maybe a half penny???

Good to hear that you are so busy there Eddie, glad you had a moment to drop by and open up this can of worms that has a number of people here wondering why they drop by anymore, not just myself.

Horrified is putting it mildly. It seems to me that this forum has become a place where the tail is wagging the dog, in a lot of instances. Some person chimes in here with a problem, gets assistance, then turns around and starts advising other laymen of how it is done. This is the “drive through” mentality we live with in North America these days. “I don’t have to learn how to do a job through years of experience I can pop on over to the piano tech forum and get an answer. I then have become so experienced, that I can start posting advice on the tech forum, and then help all my friends.”

You are correct Eddie, this is a ship of fools……………..

Ron,

Your two cents is worth more than you think …………………….

I have to disagree with you on one point. There is no such thing as a DIY’er here. They are not doing anything themselves. They are doing it while being babysat by the technicians here. They are not doing anything, or learning much while being led around by the hand. This is training a monkey to hold the silver cup ok?

Oh, you want to do it yourself?? Ok then, go to the library and get some books, and start reading. Then get yourself some old pianos, and take them apart, and try to put them back together so they actually play. Make your own years of notes, and files, on experiences with screwing up jobs, and then having to correct them at your own cost and time. Spend your own time going over these records time, and time again ,to review some past experience that you have had, to refresh for a familiar problem you have encountered. Spend time at the PTG thing if you like this sort of thing. Pay the fees. Take the courses that cost a great deal of money and time and sometimes travel. Do your own research.
In other words do-it-yourself ok?? Don’t come here asking for information that has cost the technicians here a lot of money and time to learn.

The other part that I am in complete disagreement with is this. Let’s say that a do-it-yourselfer chimes in from a couple of miles down the road from where you are located Ron. He/she wants help with a problem and how to fix. Now if I help or instruct this person, am I then not taking a service call out of your mouth and the mouths of your children??

How about over where Jerry Groot lives then…or Jurgen Goering? Would these fellows like it if I was preventing them from making money on their experiences and experience? Each time we “help” a do-it yourselfer, we are robbing a technician somewhere of a job. And for what?? What is the benefit that we as technicians receive? We get nothing, while at the same time we are stepping on each other’s toes.

I am all for not responding to DIY’ers and hopefully I have not done so. This will be my practice here in the future. After all, my appraisals cost money. So why am I offering repair knowledge then for no cost?

Then we have to endure provocative comments and DIY’ers belittling us with their comments and trying to provoke an argument about some other issue, like personality differences or whether a question is stupid or some of us are weirdo’s and on and on. Oh and I like the one about I want to fix my piano so I talk with a violin maker. So what do you do when your car breaks down….. call the plumber????
I mean it has become a lot of nonsense………… and very time wasting, to repair the damage of mis-information.

Comments and opinions please, from actual technicians would be helpful……………

Quite frankly, I feel less and less motivated to respond to much of anything here anymore.

This forum, much like rec.music.makers.piano in the Usenet world, may have reached the end of its useful life, in my opinion. I hope that's not the case, but in my eyes, it's looking more and more like it. More's the pity!

So, I guess I'll just sit by and observe for a time until things improve, if ever.

Sadly,

Tom

Greetings Gentlemen,

I was not going to respond to this post because I’m feeling more and more alienated on the technicians form for some reason. Maybe you guys were not referring to me in particular but some how I feel that this post, at least in part, is directed at PW members like me. Yes, I guess I am a DIYer to an extent because I have chosen to learn to tune and service my own pianos. Therefore, I feel the slings and arrows of this post pricking me in the heart. Hence, I feel the need to respond; as a defensive measure if nothing else.

Dear Eddie,

I have always enjoyed your posts. There is no doubt that you are a nice guy and a top-notch piano tech. However, where I’m from it is not polite to refer to someone as a fool. In fact, there is only one category of individuals who are said to be fools; “The fool has said in his heart, there is no God” (Psalms 14:1).

Dear Ron,

We are almost neighbors, as the crow flies, but I sense that you have never liked me from square one. That’s Okay though, I don’t visit this forum to be liked, but it is a mystery to me why you have such disdain for individuals like me who choose to learn to service their own pianos. Why on earth does this bother you so much? I have always tried to show respect for you and the other professionals here for the knowledge that you have as piano technician’s and are willing to share with others on this forum. However, I feel that I have not gotten any respect in return, even though I've tried to earn it. I’m trying my best to figure out what I may have said or did not say that has invoked such hatred of DIYer’s here. Actually, I thought at one time that maybe we had resolved any outstanding issues but I guess not. But that is okay too. Fact: you don’t particularly care for me or any other DIYer and I can accept that. I will be careful to never again respond to any of your threads or bother you in any way. In all sincerity, I wish you the absolute best that life has to offer.

Dear Dan,

In your post you say that there are no DIYer’s on this forum, then in the last part of your post you say that there are. You also infer that the DIYer’s on this forum are taking food out of the mouths of you and your children; with all due respect, I fail to see the reality of this statement. If anything, your own colleagues and your fellow piano technicians that live in your immediate area are the one who are taking food out of your mouth and the mouths of your children. Do you not have any formal competition in your area? I can assure you that it is not the DIYer’s that are taking food out your mouth. I doubt very seriously that there are enough DIYer’s in your area or even in the entire world that could ruin your business or any other piano tech’s business. I think the problem here may be more related to egos than economic survival.

In closing, I’m sure you guys don’t particularly care what I have to say or what I think about this topic because I am less than a worm in your eyes, after all, I’m one of those DIYer’s that has helped to ruin this forum and take food out of your children’s mouths. Well, pardon me guys, I won’t crash your party anymore. You can keep your exclusive club exclusive. However, I will continue to read this forum and maybe post a question or comment on occasion because it is one of best sources of piano related information I have come across on the net; that is until Frank or the moderator of this forum tells me to get lost. It’s a shame that us DIYer’s who genuinely want to learn about pianos don’t fit in here. I thought this forum was for any PW member who had technical questions or comments related to pianos.

Maybe you guys can lobby Frank or the moderators to ban all non-RPT’s and DIYer's form this public forum; or perhaps just me.

Best regards and Happy Memorial Day!

Rickster

Tom,

Thanks for chiming in on this one; I thought there was more techs’s thinking in this direction other than the half dozen I have been emailing with.

A forum for DIY’ers would make things worse in my opinion. I agree if this stuff doesn’t cease, and soon, this tech forum will be a failure.

For myself, I thought I would re-consider leaving after being asked by some folks to do this. It is un-fortunate to have spent time giving this forum a second chance just to end up with the same sentiments a week after trying again…… what I don’t have enough piano work to do????? You bet there is lots better to do than endure the crappy attitudes……………….

Eddie, et. al,

I have mixed feelings about this.

While I don't want to discourage any future piano techs, I don't think giving free advice to people who are obviously clueless and shooting in the dark is only hurting professional techs.

One thing that really bothers me is the lack of trust many posters feel for the tech they use. What makes someone who posts on this site automatically a better tech than the person who can hear, see, and touch their piano "in the flesh?" This is classic "if it's on the net it must be true" mentality.

I'm not intentionally avoiding this forum, but I've been very busy as well, and there have been fewer compelling threads to join in with lately.

Dave,

Very, very good point here…. Much better than the ones I put forward I feel. Yes there is a lot of “second guessing” in the questions that come forward. You are absolutely correct in the observation; who has the better knowledge of the instrument the fellow or lady standing in front of the instrument or the guy on the phone so to speak…………

Rickster,

Quote:

“You also infer that the DIYer’s on this forum are taking food out of the mouths of you and your children; with all due respect, I fail to see the reality of this statement.”

This does not come as a surprise this statement, after all you are not in the pianos business so you could not have any idea how a piano business man looks at his field of endeavor.

Quote:

“If anything, your own colleagues and your fellow piano technicians that live in your immediate area are the one who are taking food out of your mouth and the mouths of your children. Do you not have any formal competition in your area? I can assure you that it is not the DIYer’s that are taking food out your mouth. I doubt very seriously that there are enough DIYer’s in your area or even in the entire world that could ruin your business or any other piano tech’s business. I think the problem here may be more related to egos than economic survival.”

Again you are not a piano businessman so this is based on your own presumption……

Quote:

“It’s a shame that us DIYer’s who genuinely want to learn about pianos don’t fit in here.”

You want to do It yourself?? Ok, so go then. Do it yourself, without the help. Create your own help. Create your own piano problems and then fix them. Create your own place to do this. After all you are a do it yourselfer right? So what are you waiting for then?? An invitation to do so? There are lots of books at the library for you to do it yourself.

I acknowledged there are do it yourselfers because this is the label that has been chosen. But I stand by my words. There is no such thing here. This place has become a “shortcut” for people instead of them using the resources available themselves. This is the “drive through mentality” the instant gratification, I am referring to.

Happy Memorial Day yourself………………….

Dave and Dan,

Interesting points of view...actually, all of the above is interesting. I'm aware that some clients will essentially go behind their tech's back to get and confirm information, check prices etc. Its probably useful to a point, but it has long been my policy to abandon clients who prove to be too suspicious or even untrustworthy. Your point above is well taken.

For my part, I'm enjoying this forum and have yet to be jumped unreasonably by anybody...but I know what you mean about some of the snarky interactions...thankfully, its still a relatively small portion of the experience...but admittedly, I've only recently started reading/posting here.

Please don't let the impolite comments of the few (nobody in mind in particular) push you guys back from the forum...RPD

Thanks RPD; I just came back in for a moment because I thought of another really interesting point.

The primary motivation for people to do-it –themselves is to save money right? So therefore, the reasons for posting here, is so they may avoid having to make a bad error, and then call a qualified technician to come and clean up the mess at twice the price.

Now the do-it-yourselfers here have had a lot of help especially some of the repeat ones. So I am asking them…. When was the last time you got a hold of a technician here, and sent them a cheque for 50 bucks, with a thank-you note for the help, or something? When was the last time?? Actually when was the first time???

Dan: Dear Dan,

Your suggestion that some of the DIYer’s here may owe some of you techs a consultant’s fee is not unreasonable. I, for one, am willing to pay for information that can help me solve a problem. I feel that I have supported this forum in that I have purchased parts and supplies from the PW store and have encouraged others to do so. The fact that this is a public forum and not a business enterprise is why the information and exchanges here are free. If you don’t want to respond to a thread then don’t. There are advertisers that help sponsor this forum.

If you feel that you have provided me in particular with specific, valuable information or technical expertise that has been beneficial to me in particular, I will mail you a check for $50. I know that others here have offered advice, suggestions and recommendations and if they feel that I own them money, I am not a freeloader, just let me know how much I owe you and why. Of course, I’m sure you will be giving Frank a commission.

In fact, as far as I’m concerned, it is not about the money. I have more money than I have time. I just happen to be immensely interested in pianos and want to learn as much as I can about every aspect of tuning, regulating and voicing for my own purposes. Our local RPT charges $75 an hour for his services and has told me that he is willing to help me any time, just schedule an appointment. Of course, he stays booked up 6 to 8 weeks in advance, and I have a tendency to be impatient . So far, I have not needed his help.

Also, in case I have not said "thanks" to all the techs here who have ever responded to any of my posts, I say "thank you very much" from the bottom of my heart.

Best regards,

Rickster

First of all, if I wanted to just talk with techs, I would go to the PTG Pianotech or CAUT list. Personally, I kind of like the fact the others can participate. Part of what we are dealing with is the freedom of access to information provided by the internet. Even if it were all techs here, the DIY'ers could read what is written. Anybody can go to the PTG website, for example, and search the archives of the Pianotech or CAUT lists. The difference is that we would never know it. They would just read what they needed, and move on. So, I don't see that DIY'ers participating here is hurting anybody. The difference here is that people can just ask a question without doing any research.

I think that most of us are just busy. It's Sunday afternoon of Memorial Day weekend, and I've been down in the shop gluing in a set of keybushings on an action I have to have done this week. It's just life in the piano business.

sorry if l offended anyone but l will lay my cards on the table so everyone knows were l am coming from.l started in the piano trade when l was sixteen,l started out cleaning coils,pressure bars and key tops,sides and backs.l then added stripping and refurbing pedals to my list of menial tasks.l then graduated to stripping actions,decentering and removeing old felts and glue ready for the senior tech to re felt,re center,re string etc.after years of this monotanous drudgery working on uprights,grands,spring and loop ,tape check,roller actions,bluthner patent actions and every other crazy type of piano you could imagine l finaly understood why!..l now know about pianos and what you need to do to make them tick!(there was a method in the madness).l am more than willing to part with my expertease and experience with any one who is learning this trade and has a real desire to learn about the great piano makers and the craftmanship and dedication you will need to do this job properly,but l find it offensive when someone comes on this site and anounces they are going to "re build a piano" with the help of the reblitz book,and "what kind of elastic should l use as piano strings?"...then some "tech"humours them with a reply!!!.when l post on this site l want to exchange info and aquire info from like minded pros,not humour idiots who should stick to playing pianos rather than ruining them.

Rickster,

Here is the description of the purpose of this forum, as it was originally set up, as found on the main page of the forum and copied here verbatim:

"Piano tuner-technicians, use this forum to discuss tuning, repairs, restorations, etc.
Also, the place to post technical questions about the piano."

Note the first three words, "Piano tuner-technicians".

Tom

I don't feel theatened by the DIY's. As brilliant as we all are there is no way any amount of tech tidbits dispensed that can even get the dilletantes toes wet in the piano business.

When I see questions posed and solutions offered I know there is always a communicatins gap: There are ALWAYS details missed by the poster and we are ALWAYS shooting in the dark. Sometimes I think we underestimate the amount of experiance necessary to do this job right.

Touché….. good point, Tom!

The way I see it, technically, since I have tuned a few pianos, (6 to be exact) some several times already, I fit the category as “tuner”; No? The description doesn’t say how experienced a tuner you have to be, right?

Hey, if you guys want to band together and vote me and all other DIYer’s, oh, I mean beginners/entry level tuners, off this forum I will abide by what you decide . I enjoy reading this forum, whether I’m a participant or not .

Best regards,

Rickster

Thank you for pointing that out Tom.

But even though the purpose of this forum is for Piano Tuner-Technicians to disucuss the various technical aspects of the piano, I have stated more than one time, that I have no problem with answering logical questions posed by pianist.

It is some of the "off the wall" or "pointy-headed purist" questions that sometimes sends me up the wall. These questions are usually posed in order to demonstrate the poster's over inflated sense of achievement or level of technical expertise. However I think most forums are a type of light that attracts these "moths of ego" to them. There is nothing that really can be done to stop this type of personality from doing their thing, without adversely affecting the forum as a whole. We either choose to deal with them, or simply ignore them.

It is the DIY'er who comes in here hawking their photos or trying to demonstrate their "high level of expertise" upon completion of 1 or 2 pianos, that is my chief complaint with this forum.

Let me say to all the non-techs who may read this, with all the honesty and forthrigtness I can muster. I am not a member here to earn your respect. I do not desire or need to have anyone fall on their knees in submission to my opinion or way of doing things. But when I take issue with you or point out something that I think is remiss, or point out something that is to me obnoxious in your post, dont take the low road, without expecting me or anyother self-respecting technician to resort to the low highway.

Any DIY'er who is truly passionate about fixing pianos or learning to tune; do it the right way.
in addition to Reblitz, find a mentor. Make a commitment, join the PTG, make every effort to learn and one day it may lead to a good retirement job, or better yet a full time job BEFORE retirement. I dont see that in many of the DIY'ers here. And that is the reason for my chagrin with the average DIY'er.

In every area of the country, I am sure there are those who work as piano tuners, rebuilders, or whatever, who do less than quality work for the money they take. I see this almost on a weekly basis with the customers I service. To become a Piano Technician takes much commitment. It involves more than simply taking an old piano and making it work to some degree, and then exclaiming how completent you are at the tasks done. As I said it takes a commitment. Most anyone handy with a screwdriver and a few simple tools can muddle through a piano action, if they have any degree of mechanical aptitude. But craftsmanship takes a long time, and that is the difference between a truly professional technician and a DIY'er. Sorry if that sounds egotistical. But it's the damn truth.

Do I hear, a very small degree of a commitment Rickster. So you've done maybe 20 +/- tunings.
Well that is a start, now how about a mentor or the PTG.

I for one would never vote to kick anyone out of there. This is not a democracy. It is a forum, hopefully monitored by Moderators.

Eddie, Thanks for posting this. I agree with your sentiment.

In a recent post about A435 or A440 for older pianos, a DIYer call Jurgen stupid for asking how technicians are to know whether a piano should be tuned to A435 because it is not stamped on the plate of most older instruments. He went on to say that there is software to analize the scaling and that a professional should know this. 99% of these decisions are made in the home within the first 5 minutes of a service call. I tried to point this out to him and he called me stupid too.

The natural inclination is to jump back in and set the record straight but what would I have to gain? I post under my real name, I have been a full time technician for 29 years, I have been attending classes and seminars throughout those years and I have held ever position on the executive of our local PTG chapter at one time or another. Am I going to duke it out with a DIYer who is posting under a made up user name and is currently "rebuilding" a birdcage piano? The way I see it, anyone who would rebuild a birdcage piano has already defined themselves.

This forum is open to anyone with a valid email address. I will just be more careful about who I waste my time on.

I don't mind people like Rickster, he seems to have a genuine interest in learning how to do it right. What bother me is the posters that "ask the experts" and get all bent out of shape because they don't like the answers. It is a bit like someone coming in half way through a movie that wants you to explain everything that has happened up until they arrived. If they really want to learn and are willing to put in the time to get up to speed then that's OK with me. But if they are just trying to avoid a service call..... well that's a different story.