Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum fools a plenty!

Thomson Lawrie,

I was waiting to see if you were around, to bring this excellent example to the attention of this topic. Thanks for chiming in.

Very well put together, your sentiments, I sat back the whole week and further, on that thread and witnessed how it developed into a lot of disrespect, and name calling, and such. You were not the only technician that this person wanted to pick a quarrel with. There were several. I spoke with Ron and some of the others about this one. What went on there could only be described as childish, and completely offensive, to the degree that it started this conversation in the background.

We had decided to type something up, and while this was gaining momentum, Eddie Twang posted the start of this… so I said lets go………………..

This is the thread that set this off, the A435 thread.

As far as Rickster goes I have never communicated with this person, he owes me nothing. The only other thing I can offer is this; tuning 20 odd pianos doesn’t make you a piano tuner any more than standing in your garage makes you a car.

Dear Eddie,

As I read your most recent post, I can see that you are more than a mere piano tech, you are a life-time piano professional who is committed to excellence in all aspects of piano tuning, service, repair and rebuilding. I never intended to high-jack your thread by interjecting my meager thoughts and opinions. Apparently, you were referencing a thread that I did not happen to read.

I know that sometimes when a novice or DIYer posts comments, and questions here, their inexperience and ignorance can make pro’s like yourself just shake their head in disgust knowing that that person knows little about what they are doing. Well, all I can say is that this is a great place for them to learn. Many of the pro’s here really know their stuff and this is why I am drawn to this forum. I’ve found in my life’s experiences that if you want to learn something, hang around folks who know more than you do about that particular subject.

If anything I have said here has offended you, I do apologize. You have probably forgotten more than I will ever know about pianos.

Best regards,

Rickster

Perhaps another forum can be started where us laymen can post our questions to the pros. Those who wish to attempt to help us can choose to answer, (as some of you have done in the past, thank you.) I, personally, prefer to have my piano serviced by a professional tuner-technician. However, I know some people enjoy doing these kind of things and want to learn (not necessarily trying to save money.) Every tuner-tech can choose on his/her own whether or not s/he wishes to assist us non-pros. Those of you who do decide to respond to our questions, we really appreciate your expertise.

Thank You!

Dan: Hi Dan,

If you could hear my piano tunings you might change your mind about me being a tuner. Don’t know if I could pass the RPT exam though, but you might be surprised.

To all you professionals:

From my experience [as an aircraft engineer]you have nothing to fear from DIYers, only more business putting right what they have messed up. Any information you give someone who is actually meddling with the insides of a piano will only lead them further into trouble. One consolation, at least they wont kill anyone.

For the rest of us who are interested in the technicalities of pianos, we visit this forum to learn, hopefully from people who do know what they are doing.

[Rickster: this is not directed at you!]

Regards one and all

When I need a dental advice I go to dentist to get my first assessment for free. When I need a plumber’s advice I call a plumber to get my first assessment for free. When I need a legal advice I call a lawyer to get my case assessment for free. When I need a builder’s advice I call a builder to get his advice for free. Etc. etc. etc.

Why should specialists in the piano industry be treated by the general public any different? What are our running expenses when providing a theoretical advice in a forum? We are already the specialists others look toward like we do toward others in their respective field of expertise. Their theoretical questions are not going to reduce our practical achievements. Their practical achievements are not going to threaten our professional establishments.

And then there is, perhaps, the most important purpose for posting – making ourselves a visible presence in the global market that is net bound.

Writing to ourselves while helping others along the way is the name of this forum game.

Mr G.

After all the free advice from all those proffesions, do you then attempt the work yourself, and then turn around and offer free advice. This is the complaint that seems to be at the heart of the thread.

I am not a tech, and I am certainly not a DIYer. I would be scared to try anything technical with my piano; I call an expert. I am very interested in pianos. Most of what I know about pianos has derived from these forums. I have an interesting piano myself, in connection with which interesting technical questions have arisen. I feel that I have received very valuable advice on this forum, for which I am very grateful.

It seems to me that there are DIYers and DIYers. There are those like Rickster who like to tinker with their piano, feel that they learn from getting hands-on, are appreciative of the techs’ advice, and are respectful of the techs. These are not the problem, in my view.

The problem arises with other DIYers who feel that their own advice is as good as the techs’ advice, have a chip on their shoulder, are discourteous and disrespectful, and are quite happy to hijack threads to browbeat techs who don’t agree with them.

It is unfortunately hard to see how such contributors could be excluded, without losing the benefits of a public forum on the internet. So I would encourage you techs not to rise to the bait. Simply ignore such posts. Contribute to threads that you feel are positive and constructive, and ignore any that you feel are absurd. Don’t waste time discussing them in a thread such as this, they are simply not worth it. Write about something positive and interesting instead.

And please, don’t abandon the forum, leaving people like me in the lurch. That is simply a counsel of despair. I think that in general the readers of this forum are more discriminating than you might imagine.

There is a simple solution for all the problems mentioned here--only respond to posts when you want to and not otherwise. Oh, wait, that's how this forum works anyway. Hmmmmm.

I don't see any proof that fewer Techs post because more DIY's post.

I notice that more Techs posts when interesting Topics (about pianos) are created.

I only skimmed through some of this Topic, because it isn't about pianos. It's about Topics about pianos. I'm not interested.

Hear, Hear Richard...very aptly stated.

I think I need to move to Sidney. Around here, any consultation with any of Mr. G's above mentioned professions are not free. I'd love to call a dentist, plumber, lawyer, or any professional for free advice. But I dont know any who will assess the problem over the phone.
The plumber comes out and takes a look for a fee. He will fix the problem for a much larger fee.
The dentist or lawyer will gladly see you in his/her office. But then you will pay a whopping office visit fee. Be prepared to hand over a bundle for the work they do. Yes, why should professionals in the piano industry be treated differently.

Very few things in life, that are worth having are free!!!!

Richard,

I would have to agree, Richard this is it in one sentence. Or was that two??

Roy 123

Yes you are correct. Now maybe you could pop on over to the thread “A435” and start from the top of page two and read the rest. Come back and tell us your opinion as to whether or not ANYONE should have to tolerate reading some of that garbage. The thread is fine until this DIY’er chimes in and starts giving all his benefit of stringing a birdcage…………………….

Jeff,

Thanks for letting us know that you are not interested from just skimming. Maybe you would like to go back and actually read the whole thread. You may just change your mind………

Ron,

Yes I agree totally. The free assessment is worth everything you pay for it. I don’t know of any professional person that gives a free appraisal on any item.

Two free things are worth having. Air, and life,………… oh, and enough money to pay your taxes…………….

No one's forced to read or respond to any thread that is not interesting or pleasing to him. No one has to tolerate anything--just pass the irritating stuff by.

Good stuff here Roy123, it is hard however to anticipate the blindsiding that some received there on that A435 thread. Further, I think what the result is when this type of thing happens, the technicians here start grouping the DIY’ers here collectively into that one mental group. Then the next one comes along with a legitimate problem, and gets crucified because of the former experience. So I guess I am expressing the old “one bad apple story”.

You are correct. We as technicians posting here are going to have to selectively “weed out” the offensive ones that not only want help, but then spit back in return. I wonder what kind of help they will expect in the future, by demonstrating behavior like this.

David-G,

My apologies, I did not mean to ignore your posting. Your points in the posting are well taken and considered…..especially the parallel to Roy123 in the fourth para. Also the last sentence is quite encouraging….. this is the one that I forget sometimes…………………..

Cheers to you both.

Rickster,

You have mentioned that I might be of a differing opinion if I had the opportunity to hear the results of one of your tunings. I am hopeful that I am incorrect in my assumption they are not.

Maybe when you stand in your garage you do look like a car…………………….. all the best with your tinkering there……

There are many industies plauged by amatures. My wife is a nurse of 35+ years. Routinely she hears about "sugar diabetes," a conditon that technically does not exist. Lowes and Home depot earn millions selling lumber, plumbing and hardware to non-pros. Autozone sells to "shade tree mechanics" like me. How many true craftsmen buy "Craftsmen" tools?

The boasts and projected arrogance of a poster who admits limited knowledge and experiance are a sign of weak character, poor personal adjustment and inter-personal skill. When that same person offers tech advise they are merely being foolish, just as if we were to authoritively advise brain surgery techniques. We run into that type in everyday life, no matter the issue, and it they are best ignored.

Sam,

Thanks for your input on this one I’ve always enjoy your unique point of view. I have family too in the medical field and have heard about the sugar diabetes.

Ignoring them is tough sometimes especially the advice thing. Then a tech somewhere has to spend time to undo the misinformation and the resulting damage. I guess this is what keeps the bottom line in good shape right?

You are a “shade tree mechanic” too?? I guess we are DIY’ers on the Auto Forum………. Oh dear…..

Ron: Hi Ron,

I’m afraid I don’t follow your most recent comments. I’m not sure if they were meant as a complement or an insult. No matter though, I’ve learned that words can mean a lot or they can mean nothing, depending on whose mouth they are coming out of.

I know my piano tunings sound great to me (and everyone else that hears and plays my pianos) and that is all that matters.

By-the-way, I’m 5’9”, 220 lb’s and can bench press 300 lbs; I may be a little overweight but I don’t think I look like a car yet. Maybe one day.

I will admit though that I jumped into this thread without reading the A435 thread. Oh well, I guess it’s good to get some of these pent-up feelings out into the open every once in a while .

This is a great forum and I attribute some of my accomplishments and meager piano tech skills to some of the information I have gleaned from this great forum.

Best regards,

Rickster

listen guys,if A DIYer asks me a genuine question ,say about "how should l keep my ivory keys clean","how often should my piano be tuned" etc, l have no problem at all in giveing free,good advice and if someone is a rookie tech just starting out l would go out of my way to offer advice and encouragement to help sort out a problem(we all had to start somwhere,and l can tell you my old mentor wasnt very happy with me when l took it upon myself to clean a sound board with methylated spirits!).what l wont do is humour someone who asks "l am going to re string my erard grand how do l make a german eye?".when you say this is not for an ameteur another DIYer pipes up saying "oh ignore the pros.if you follow the reblitz book to the letter you will be fine".as anyone who has worked on erards will know you have to be at the top of your game to re build one of those monsters,and you know however good you are you are going to come across problems applenty(esspecialy the early ones)yet l see one person is still telling us what type of wire they will restring there piano with(yet they dont know how to make a german eye!) and a whole host of ridiculous questions and worse still people are still giving tips and advice!,and when it all goes "pear shaped" you can bet your bottom dollar it will be a case of"well thats what a tech off the forum told me to do".

Very good Eddie and you will get no argument from me on these points. I think we are coming from the same place using different words. And the last point is the best of all. Yes I did this, but I am not responsible the piano forum made me do it.

Rickster,

This should be easy for a smart fellow like you. I was presuming that your tuning was so so as a do- it- yourselfer. I am hopeful that I was incorrect in my presumption… see that was easy.

Now let me see. I am 5’11” 235, ride 52 miles a week; train with resistance training (weights) can press 425lbs. and teach high level (elite, open 5.0 and higher) tennis on the off days, four times a week. Played pro circuit tennis for 7yrs.
I can lift a 5’6” grand up a flight of stairs by myself. I don’t look like a car I look like a truck. Now I don’t know what any of this has to do with a piano forum.

Oh the only other thing I might have to mention is the fact that you are quoting a fellow called Dan.

I think your Freudian slip is showing on that one there………….

I'm 5'9" 225 and can press a Guinness Stout, (room temp)with one hand. Or a St. Emillion grand cru, preferably circa 2000. Or 18 year old Glen Livet. Or, with great finesse, eat a Big Mac while driving and not drop a sesame seed.

Dan my wife keeps telling me I'm too old and fat to move pianos but the damn things won't move themselves.

I used to ride but got out of the habit. Need to get back into but it seems the only time availible is at night and then I can't sleep after 20 mile run. Have a Cannondale T-2000 touring bike.