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Good post, Jerry. I would imagine that there are individuals in most every profession that are bordering on incompetence (if not on the side of incompetence already). You are also right about there being individuals that will tell you how much they know about a particular subject and when put to the test, would fail miserably. These individuals glean what they need to know to survive from others around them until their resources are exhausted; then it’s time to pay the piper.

As a parallel, I’ve had individuals over the years tell me how well they can play a particular musical instrument. When I hear them play for the first time, my expectations are sorely dampened with disappointment. Maybe some people just deceive themselves by thinking they are much better at something than they really are.

(I hope I never fall into that category!)

Best regards,

Rickster

Thanks Rickster. I remember when my first Agraffe broke on a Steinway B. I was an RPT. Yet, I had no idea how to replace one properly because I'd never done it before. So, I contacted another RPT and readily admitted I had no clue. In this case, it happened to be my dad. He gladly came along with me laughingly saying "come along junior and watch a real pro at work." I laughed and said, yeah, yeah big head let's go! But, at least I asked to be shown instead of guessing and screwing it up more.

Jerry, your anecdotal story is a good one but there is another point I must add to this. Remember that some people are good at their jobs, but are terrible at taking tests or exams. The actual part of taking the exam, makes some people so apprehensive, that all they can think about is the “taking” part and not the material. This does not seem to be the case in this story however.

Taking exams doesn’t really mean too much, it just means that you can take and pass a test. Some do well at this, and others do not. You can see a lot of this at the elementary school level.

Remember there are three types of learners. Aural, visual, and tactile. Aural learners need to hear the words spoken. Visual learners need to read the material off the blackboard, or the written page, or watch the work being done. Tactile learners (usually with some type of learning disability or arrested development) need to have it done with them, you show them how to do it once, and they can repeat it over and over and over. Kind of like stringing, or action work, tactile learners are good at practical applications.

Some people can take a course but are they retaining the material according to the way they learn? This is the most important question……….

Good point Dan, you are so right. Some people freeze when it comes to exams alright. In her case, after she failed, we offered to let her study for a bit and even to help her but, she flat out refused and we have never seen her since. She is still tuning in these parts and still does LOUSY work. It us most unfortunate.

Usually, as head examiners, we can tell way before then, whether or not they know their stuff. In fact, generally we will "pretest them" so as not to waste any body's time or their money either if we can help it.

Unfortunately, with this particular woman, we have invited her time again to attend our technical meetings but, I suppose, she is either so embarrassed at how poorly she did or just plain POED at us and the PTG which is a shame in and of itself because it wasn't our fault that she chose to advertise as being an RPT before she was one.

Yes you know Jerry it sounds like she spent a lot of funds to take this course and to find out the results were not up to par could be quite a shock. And then ego/ denial thing kicks in and well, off they go. “ oh I took this course and I am good enough”………. So I can call myself an “expert”. Well folks who live this theory often run into trouble….. and not just with pianos.

Unfortunately you are correct that she has blamed the messenger, in this case the “members” of that PTG,or the PTG itself. There are lots of people that live life this way.

I had a student of piano technology once, who after 3 months, started to tell me how to do the repairs “no Dan it is done this way”….. So they become un-trainable. The fellow left, and is still around doing the same sub-standard work………

Had a tennis student like this once. For 20 yrs. I gave this friend free instruction, then he got rich on stocks and took lessons from a club pro. After two yrs. of this he came back and I whack the guy 6-2 6-2.

And he is furious because after all, he has taken lessons from such and such shouldn’t he be better than this? Well no because he did not retain the material. So he doesn’t know what type of learner he is. Or the instructor has no idea how to be an educator.

Jerry, there are many piano technicians that are not RPT's for many different reasons. First of all, this profession is unregulated here in North America, so the answer to whether there is a pseudo NEED to be, by a self proclaimed organization, falls on many deaf ears.
Another reason is that a few techs I know of have inferred from their perceptions that if you live in the competitive local of the Examiners, it is of the Examiners best interest to limit their RPT competition. $$ have a funny way of doing this to even the most honorable people in all professions, why not this one? Many techs do not consider it a financially viable alternative to travel to another state/province/country to get a perceived unbiased testing.
When I started tuning in the mid 80's, our local PTG chapter was rather new and appeared to be an "Old Boys Club" that had no woman in its listings, and many of us refused to join what what appeared to be a sexist organization and boycotted them. There was an almost equal amount of men and woman at our school and the other one I checked into, yet the PTG chapter in our area and the other schools, were all men at the time. Seems kind of odd, don't you think? I realize that this may have changed over the years, but it still left a bad taste in my mouth and others. BTW, I am not a woman, but thats not the point.
Beyond all this, I had tried to arrange for myself to be tested (on a whim) about 10 years ago and had paltry excuses given by my chapter like not having the exam papers, not returning my calls ect..that I eventually washed my hands of the whole affair. Seemed very unprofessional to me to say the least. To this day I have only had a couple instances where I have been asked if I was an RPT and when I say, "no, and neither was the late Glenn Goulds' personal tuner" I am rarely asked to elaborate.
My work speaks for itself, my customers are happy and advertise me by word of mouth to their friends and acquaintances. Many are musicians and teachers and are not the uneducated or uninformed types. I have also done my share of re-repairs on some poor PTG member work, so there are other factors involved than passing a "standardized" test, like having the right parts, glues, materials and the inclination to use them when needed.
Recently I have seen video demos on the net of certain repairs on pianos. I cringe when I see vice grips clamped on wires and pins and see all the metal tools tossed and laying around on the plate as the tech did his best to explain how to do the job. Even a garage mechanic has enough common sense to not lay his wrench on the hood of your car.
I believe the PTG has many good things to offer especially to Associate members (info,lectures, seminars ect) but ask yourself how do you "standardize" a tuning test. For relevancy, do you find examination standard quality pianos up and down your client list? They are only about 20% of mine. I honestly believe the test of a good tuner in the average clients eyes, is not one that deviates less than 1/x cents off x number of notes,on an x+ grade piano, but rather provides a stable tuning that sounds good on a piano that DOESN'T meet a PTG examination pianos' standards and still sounds pretty good next month too. I find it easier to assume that if this can be done consistently, than a 7 ft+ piano with good pins and strings, is a piece of cake, not the other way around. Until our profession is fully regulated here like for instance, in Germany, the full value of it will never be what it should be and I won't waste my time or breath pretending its so.

Emmery,

Not all PTG members are bad. You seem to choose to lump them all into one huge bunch portraying the entire industry in a certain light based on a few bad experiences that you've "personally" encountered with your local chapter. That isn't fair for the other 3,000 or 4,000 + other PTG members in America. Or to the others around the world.

At least as RPT's, we have proven that we can do the work according to "their standard" which is pretty high I might add. We are trying our very best to be the best that we can. At least most of us are. You will have turkeys in any field.

I know of some RPT's that are the biggest jerks I've ever met. I choose not to associate with these arrogant people.

I also know plenty of NON RPT's that do extremely poor work with the thinking that they do great work and yet, they choose not to associate with the PTG or to learn anything from them. What sense is there in this?

Emmery Says: "Another reason is that a few techs I know of have inferred from their perceptions that if you live in the competitive local of the Examiners, it is of the Examiners best interest to limit their RPT competition. $$ have a funny way of doing this to even the most honorable people in all professions, why not this one? Many techs do not consider it a financially viable alternative to travel to another state/province/country to get a perceived unbiased testing."

While that may have been possible many years ago, we have very strict guidelines to follow for scoring. We also must have 2 or 3 other RPT's doing the testing along with us to make sure things stay on track and honest.

Everyone that I know of on a testing committee are honest people that really want to encourage and make all tuners into the best technicians possible. They would not intentionally discourage anyone nor would they prevent them from passing. That would be pure folly!

I don't think it was odd that there were no women in that local chapter. Up until around the late 70's to the 80's or so, piano tuning seemed to mostly a mans field. So what? I suppose women weren't all that interested in it.

Our local chapter has quite a few women in it. Younger ones, middle aged ones and older ones. Same for the men. Things change. So must we.

IMO, to intentionally boycott a chapter is childish. That's like saying, "I don't like our presidential candidates so I'm not going to vote but, I'll set on the sidelines and complain instead!"

My answer to that is; if a person refuses to join a really good organization for their own betterment and everyone else's, or refuses to contribute in any way, or refuses to vote, then they lose the option to complain.

Try attending a seminar, they are all over the America. Or attend a convention. The conventions are in different states every year.

Emmery says: "I have also done my share of re-repairs on some poor PTG member work, so there are other factors involved than passing a "standardized" test, like having the right parts, glues, materials and the inclination to use them when needed."

No kidding? So, because Joe blow down the street is dishonest and chooses to do poor work after passing tests is our fault? That's silly.

To standardize a test, they take thousands upon thousands of hours and dozens and dozens of the best technicians in the industry and put all of their heads together for a few more thousand hours until they finally come to an agreement on the most fair and honest way to test people. There are liability factors after all.

They go over these things at every single convention tweaking things continually. They are always trying to keep it fair and honest but yet, difficult enough so that we HAVE to know a lot in order to pass.

What's wrong with making a test difficult?? I see nothing wrong with that at all!!

Tuning a standard quality piano has nothing to do with ones ability to do a quality job on any particular piano. We have to do the best job on any given piano that we can do at any given time. When we are given a lousy piano to work on obviously it won't come out as well as a concert grand will but, it should still sound as good as we can make that piano sound regardless. If we choose to do otherwise and many people do so then that is their choice but, it is not my choice.

You cannot say that because our customers are happy that our tunings are good. 98% of all clients cannot tell the difference one way or the other. I've seen customers after I've raised a horribly out of tune piano up 1 full tone to A440 that had no clue that it was any different at all.

I can almost guarantee that if our field was fully regulated and maybe it should be, more than 50 % of ALL tuners in this field would be eliminated. Including many RPT's that passed when they should not have passed.

I'm afraid however that the vast majority that would fail the exams are not those that are already RPT's.

To compare everyone in an industry to a few idiots is totally absurd.

Hi Emmery:
Conversely, if someone can't pass the exam on a good 7 foot piano that is relatively easy to tune, then they are really going to struggle out in the "real world". There is a stability portion of the test, in case you didn't know.

The PTG has tried to create a testing system which is fair and equitable. It also has to be easy enough to administer. What you have to realize is that the exams are given by people who are donating their time. They take time out of their life so that other people can take exams. It costs them time, and therefore money to do so. No everyone approaches this from a "what's in it for me?" perspective. There is no status, and an examiner is not allowed to advertise that they are an examiner. No one is being paid to administer exams. The satisfaction they get is that of "giving back". Many of the examiners go to conventions and work the whole time. These people should have our thanks for what they do.

The CTE's I know of are fair, and responsible. The criteria for the exams is clear cut. It's not the "good ole boy" network that you seem to think.

While there may be some "slacker" RPT's, I don't think that many people "get lucky" and pass either.

My suggestion would be that if you think there are problems in the PTG, then join and change it.

Maybe it's because I've had a tough day. Maybe it's just because I'm not in the best of moods. Seems like here lately when I read some of these threads, I get in a worse mood. So I probably shouldnt even try to post to this.

But I swear, I think I have heard every lame excuse for not joining the PTG. And to be honest for 25 years, I was usually the one speaking some of these lame excuses. Yes, at some time or another just about everyone, Guild member or not, has had some reason to get ****ed off at the Guild, and some RPT's. Heck anybody who can deal with this forum, can certainly deal with the PTG.
It's a cakewalk compared to some of the personalities here!!!!!

Everyone has their own reasons for joining or not joining. Seems to me the ones who are casting dispersion here, are usually the ones who seem to think they have arrived at the pinnicle of the tuning world. But I really think anyone who works up enough courage to join the PTG will find they are not a "tuning god" and will find the foundation for some good training and an environment where everyone learns together.

Again, just my half penny worth!!!

I didn't want my posting to flame anyone or the RPT members out there but my reasoning to me is not an excuse..its a reason. Its the high brow attitude of some PTG members looking from inside out thinking everyone needs or should be a member and is incompetent if they are not that makes one think its an "excuse". If there was merit to that way of thinking then the public would demand only PTGs and the government or trade controllers would make it law like they do for doctors, lawyers ect. To describe our paying clients as not knowing a good tuning from a bad one is irrelevant for me because when I walk in their door, I always assume they do; lest it motivate me in the wrong direction, if you know what I mean. I tuned a piano yesterday that was tuned previously(1 month ago)by a tuner that also tunes for a famous radio station. I know he is a PTG member because the client remarked that he was referred to him because of that. The piano was 40 cents flat and this time of year I was expecting it to be sharp if anything (high humidity). It was a 2 y/o RX5 in great shape. As a not so informed customer, he did point out that the upper 2 octaves were not even touched by the tuner and he left after 40 minutes of tuning and paid in full. He also pointed out that the reason he called him was that he plays along with music from CD's and it sounded "off" and didn't improve when he had left.I am sure most of you are aware of what he did. This customer was p**sed...I charged him for the tuning and somewhat less than normal for the extra pass, he sat and played me a song and told me his piano never sounded so good, his wife agreed, and he said I am his tuner from now on. I have tuned other pianos done by RPT members that are fine and even refer some out of towners to one that I am friends with, but I don't buy that line of thinking that a document gives you integrity or the right to be high brow with the techs who feel its not worth the bother and are appreciated valued and make a living without it.

Okay, your point is taken Emmery and has some validity. But to lump all PTG members together as high brow elitists is just too far a stretch.
Yes I know some members I dont care for in either their personality or their level of competence. But that is my opinion, one I dont share with other techs or with customers. It is no different in my opinion than saying anyone who is not a member is not a real piano technician. I know several in my area who are very good techs but who dont care to be a part of the PTG.

It serves no purpose to continue to recount negative experiences, unless you are using these as a means to advance your own credibility. To me people who do that have no more credibiiity than the incompetent ones that are criticizing.

I have also shared the "negative" experience that Emmery had. Same scenario with missing exam papers. 3 times I travelled to a meeting as a paid up associate, a 2 hour drive, only to be given the we dont have them excuse. Next I was told to contact a local RPT, and he would look after it. He never returned my calls or e-mails. After hearing others complain about this, a forum member jumped in and said he would report this to head office, even asked my permission to send along my e-mail. ZIPPOLA !! NOTHING !! However I still love piano work. The differance now is my desire to acheive RPT status has left me.

I don't believe I lumped them all together since I stated that "some" of them have this attitude.
Not here to advance credibility, especially in this way. In all honesty, I should have told this customer to complain to the PTG about this member, according to the PTG's own guidlines. I didn't because dragging another tech down in the eyes of a customer (even if valid) is doing us all a harm in a general, ethical way...or so I was taught.
Ron, I am not sure of what to make of your comment about "recounting negative experiences". I will check the forum posting rules to see if I can find the "rose colored glasses" clause prohibiting it. Were you refering to negative experiences with the Guild only? Either way I agree with you that it(PTG) does serve a purpose for those that seek it. My squabbling is done.

It's to late Emmery, you've already POED a lot off people in here including me for not a very good reason that I can see other than pure prejudice, anger and resentment. Maybe even a bit of jealousy.

Emmery, where are you coming up with these ideas that RPT's are the big bad guys anyway? And are they pointed at the PTG in America? Or the PTG in Canada?

I also know just as many NON RPT's that are such stuck up snobs it isn't even funny. So, now, where does that get us and what does that prove? Everyone is different. Doctors can be snobs, piano tuners can be snobs. Doctors can do lousy work. Piano tuners can too. Not everyone is good. Not everyone is honest.

Bear in mind that many old fashioned ideas came from the OLD FARTS out there that should no longer be in it if they have the kind of mentality and attitude that you are telling us about.

The only reason the public doesn't contact only RPT's is that for one, they don't know any better and for two, the government does not require that all piano tuners be a member or carry some sort of license like most other fields do. Because of that, certain non members like yourself bash the heck out of those of us that have worked so hard to become an RPT and to make PTG the best that we can it for no good reason other than to make yourself look "ok" for not being one of us. Well fine. You don't have to be. But, you also don't have to bash those of us that are either.

We've proven that we can pass these tests. Have you? What's the big fricken deal over there anyway?

If every one of your customers could hear when a piano is in tune or when it is not then none of us would need any training at all. We could pick up a tuning hammer and just start tuning. That's off the wall Emmery. As I said, most of them cannot but, obviously, you'll believe what you will regardless.

You say PTG members. But, are they only PTG members, or are they actually RPT members?

2nd question. How old was this PTG guy that tuned for the radio station? Was he an old geezer?

I can tell you that the RPT's in my city are nothing like the PTG members where you're at. We all do what's right with the piano. If they do it incorrectly up there where you are well, we can't help that down here. But, like I said before, to lump all of us into one heap, just isn't fair. Should I start lumping all of you NON RPT'S into big junk pile too?? Any one of us could come up with a boat load of people that we know that does lousy work. How fair would that be and what good would it do?

Let me say this. Many countries hate Americans. Well, we can't help what our government does anymore than you can help what yours does. We can't help what the newspapers decide to post about us either but, we are not the bad guys here. It's how the rest of the world portrays you, me and everyone else that creates half of the problem.

Emmery, regarding your last post...

Here in America, if we catch an RPT doing lousy work, we can and do talk with them and if it continues, we can have them reprimanded by the home office if we can show proof and eventually, kicked out. I have been a part of that myself one time and this particular person was indeed removed. My dad was also a part of that at least 2 times that I know of. We do NOT want lousy RPT's. What good would it be to become one then? ;-)

There seems to be an obvious complaint here against a particular chapter of the PTG. Since March of 2008 when I joined this public forum, I have noted similar complaints coming from other members of the same PTG chapter. While I am by no means a member, or associate, I can’t help but feel these complaints cannot be addressed by this public forum.

I have noted more than three members of the same area with virtually the same complaint. It would be best to address these concerns in a letter to the Home Office and in particular, the complaint clearly stated and signed by all members concerned. Allot a certain time limit for response, and if none is forth coming then consider a small claims for the return of your fees. After all, if you are paying monthly fees to be a member, the chapter is obligated to address your concerns, or return your money.

Having no exam papers does not even qualify as an excuse, or a reason. This is obfuscation at best, and further could be seen as exclusion by discrimination.

While I am sure that some of the PTG members here sympathize with the plight of the Toronto chapter, this specific problem cannot be addressed here.

Further this does not make all PTG members elitist, or snobby or some other derogatory label. It just means there is a problem with the administration of this particular chapter. So work to get the administration removed, or corrected.

While I will be the first to agree with many opinions in this thread, I would also like to point out what I feel is important to me as well.

The statement that this board is becoming more the DIY'ers information data base may very well be due to the fact that we sew the seeds for that to happen.

We can't very well continue offering our answers to such questions making these entire threads become just what they are.

Far be it for me to make a statement that I am better than anyone else. I can read through some of the lines here and see who knows what and who is justing fishing.

But I will say this, there is alot of fueling the fire and beating of a dead horse done here also. That too has made me become a less enthusiastic member of PW.

If you don't like the threads on this site, if they have become "old hat" to you, or offensive in any way. STOP READING THEM!!!

One man's opinion...

Jerry, an oversight on my behalf, the tech I was referring to was an RPT...not an Associate Member. As a customer I would have reported him; as a "competing" tech and non-RPT coming in to re-tune the customers' piano, I probably shouldn't for various reasons. I don't know the reason for this techs "rip-off" but the point is that because he was an RPT, it probably wasn't for lack of capability. I stated my situation here to simply make the point that integrity goes hand and hand with knowledge and the only "test" available to measure integrity is somebody coming along that has it, and doing the job the way it should be done. The customer is unfortunately in the middle of all this and we as techs should strive to preserve the integrity of our profession as a whole by being discreet.
I would like to say that I do take some offence to the constant mentions by techs here of customers not knowing the difference of a good tuning or not. This way of thinking is the "seed" of unprofessional attitude and if heard or read by a customer, does nothing to promote the integrity of our work. I know very little about brain surgery, but if I required it, I would question the quality of my surgery if I were to overhear my surgean saying to another that, as his patient, I don't know the difference between a running stitch and a mattress stitch. I coundn't help but wonder that if he's so confident I don't know it, is he also thinking I wouldn't complain, if I didn't get it(when needed)?
I would like to add that dealing with this type of situation is the only thing about this work I dislike, since there is no perfect answer that makes everybody happy.
BTW Jerry, I am a fairly recent joiner of this forum so I am not sure what it was like years ago. It seems to be alright for decent info if you sift and strain a bit. I'm sorry you feel that I am singling out PTG members or RPT's, it was not my intent but rather the limitations of a original single post. If I knew nothing about pianos and had no tech referred to me, I would most likely use one myself to simply to lessen (not eliminate) risks. Please understand that the very nature of one time tests (for any field) does not seperate the people that drink from the Fountain of Knowledge, from the ones that just gargle.

Good points Dan and mitech. If we don't anti up and change things ourselves, then we have nobody to blame but ourselves right?

Some time back, a month or so ago, I had written our PTG home office, regarding the Toronto Chapter not doing their job along with the complaints of a couple of people from that area. I received a response from my home office fairly quickly saying they were going to look into it and then they apologized for it. But, I do not know if anything has changed since or was done about it. That's the last I've heard about it but, at least I tried to do my part to help.

If enough of you up there band together, things have to change! But, as I said, it certainly isn't that way down here. And this because all chapter members must be involved, attend meetings faithfully and must take turns administering the meetings and topics in order for it to continue working. If only one or two people do all of the work, it gets old very quickly for those two.

Hi Emmery,

If you want to turn his name into me with specific detailed complaints in a private PM to me, I will gladly turn his name over to our home office here for them to look into for you.

Well, from this side of the fence, if one surgeon said to another surgeon that they didn't know the difference, is a whole lot different that one technician (or doctor) saying to the next that the patient doesn't know the difference. :-) And, the patient, doesn't. :-) Most of my customers readily admit that to me without me even saying anything about it. The reason I know too, is that when we get complaints, it is never a tuning complaint per say. It is always something else like a voicing problem, a sticking key, a squeaking pedal or something else that is lumped into "my piano is not tuned right." :-)

It appears too Emmery that this whole mess is singled out to a certain chapter or a certain area in Canada or so it appears but, as Dan * I pointed out, things can be changed and people can be removed.

I strongly suggest that you get involved and make something happen up there.