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#628394 - 03/30/08 01:56 PM Piano Wire
Stilamazed Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/12/07
Posts: 92
Loc: New Jersey
Hey Guys,

Has anyone ever come across, or used a brand of piano wire called New Octave Globle? If so, what was you're opinion of it? I do not want to come across as advertising, or dogging, any particular brand names, but it is the brand i selected for my piano, and i'm interested in what the pros have to say.

Thanks,
Mike

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#628395 - 03/31/08 12:07 AM Re: Piano Wire
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
I am curious what made you choose this brand. It is not one of the better known ones.
_________________________
Jurgen Goering
Piano Forte Supply
www.pianofortesupply.com

Piattino Caster Cups distributor

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#628396 - 03/31/08 12:43 AM Re: Piano Wire
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 20752
Loc: Oakland
I think it is International Piano Supply's house brand. It is probably something else rebranded. After all, there are not that many actual wire manufacturers out there.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#628397 - 03/31/08 08:51 AM Re: Piano Wire
Stilamazed Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/12/07
Posts: 92
Loc: New Jersey
Bingo... International piano supply it is. The salesman showed me side by side comparisons with Roslau, as far as appearance. He went on, using words like elongation, stability, blah, blah. It was inexpensive. The real question i have is, as far as the scaling software is concerned, can i assume that it has the same properties as Roslau brand wire?

Thanks,
Mike

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#628398 - 03/31/08 09:25 AM Re: Piano Wire
Keith Roberts Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/04/04
Posts: 1984
Loc: Murphys, Ca
No. You can't assume.

If you have to make a choice for the the scaling program, Roslau Red is their cheap stuff. If the program makes no distinction between the grades of wire, it most likely makes no difference to the scaling program so using Roslau as the default is ok. This is because the scaling program bases it's scale on the percent of breaking strength. The tension of the wire in comparision to the point that it will break is what creates the inharmonicity readings. You wouldn't choose Pure Sound which has low breaking strength.
_________________________
Keith Roberts
Associate, PTG
Keith's Piano Service
Hathaway Pines,Ca

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#628399 - 03/31/08 09:54 AM Re: Piano Wire
Stilamazed Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/12/07
Posts: 92
Loc: New Jersey
Keith,

Thanks for the input. The tension is what i'm concerned with. I've spoken with the salesman again, and i don't think he knows the particular properties of this brand, so i thought i'd take a shot, and ask the forum. The person who is helping me with the scaling set the program up, and i am just filling in the blanks {I don't want anyone to get the idea that i'm skilled enough to set up and use the software} I don't think he's heard of this particular brand, so for the purpose of figuring it's strength, as far as tension, i wanted to know if anyone out there in forumland would happen to know.

Thanks again,

Mike

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#628400 - 03/31/08 10:49 AM Re: Piano Wire
Keith Roberts Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/04/04
Posts: 1984
Loc: Murphys, Ca
You might have to guess. At least that is different from assuming. \:D
_________________________
Keith Roberts
Associate, PTG
Keith's Piano Service
Hathaway Pines,Ca

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#628401 - 03/31/08 11:47 AM Re: Piano Wire
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
A professional would never use any kind of no-name or house brand wire. You just don't know its properties and characteristics and chances are no one will be wiling or able to give you specs. Who knows where it was made and by whom, to what specs and tolerances?

Stringing a piano is a job that should last for years and years. It is penny wise and pound foolish to save a few dollars on materials in such a very labor intensive job.

Three weeks ago you started a thread :Breathing new life" showing your project and the piano which you had almost finished putting new strings on. Now you start a thread about scaling and wire brands. That is definitely putting the cart before the horse. It sounds like you are in over your head.
_________________________
Jurgen Goering
Piano Forte Supply
www.pianofortesupply.com

Piattino Caster Cups distributor

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#628402 - 03/31/08 03:47 PM Re: Piano Wire
Stilamazed Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/12/07
Posts: 92
Loc: New Jersey
Supply,

What you say about a professional choosing a wire type makes sense. I didn't realize that there were so many variables. To take what you said about 3 weeks ago almost having the piano strung a step further... It is now completly strung, before i realized that i may have to do it over. As far as being in over my head, i enjoy it to much for that, if it was for a customer that had paid me {Which doesn't happen}, or if my livlyhood were somehow depended on it, then yes... i could see how it could seem like a disaster. This is something that i've really taken a shine to. As i've also stated in the past, i'm buying old clunkers on ebay, just to work on them. You don't do that unless you enjoy it. I'd be lying if i said that making up 191 more loops is fun, but doing it right, and ending up with a hundred year old piano that is in exellent condition is what it's all about. Also, the wire was purchased after the salesman ran his pitch about how it is superior in every way to Roslau, stated that it is electro-plated, giving it more shine, that it resists elongation, and stablizes sooner. Is any of that true? beats me... but it sounded good. Point is, i didn't buy it because it was cheaper, i really believed i was purchasing something superior.

Thanks,
Mike

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#628403 - 03/31/08 03:56 PM Re: Piano Wire
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 20752
Loc: Oakland
I would not worry about it. It is a cheap birdcage upright. The wire will not matter much.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#628404 - 03/31/08 04:14 PM Re: Piano Wire
Stilamazed Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/12/07
Posts: 92
Loc: New Jersey
It WAS a cheap birdcage upright

Now it's becoming a beautiful antique.
When i'm done with it i'll start on the steinway i just picked up. I'll keep you posted

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#628405 - 03/31/08 05:20 PM Re: Piano Wire
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
BDB you are probably right, but personally I wouldn't even string a free brdcage with electroplated wire...

But hey - go for it!
_________________________
Jurgen Goering
Piano Forte Supply
www.pianofortesupply.com

Piattino Caster Cups distributor

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#628406 - 03/31/08 05:41 PM Re: Piano Wire
Stilamazed Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/12/07
Posts: 92
Loc: New Jersey
What are the disadvantages of electro-plated wire?

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#628407 - 04/01/08 11:02 PM Re: Piano Wire
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
One important question to be asked could be:

"If this no-name wire is so superior to well-known name brands, then why is it not used on Steinway, Fazioli, Bechstein, Grotrian, Sauter, Blüthner, Bösendorfer, Yamaha, Förster, Kawai, Schimmel, Walter, Seiler, Steingraeber, and all other of the top 50 piano makes worldwide?"
_________________________
Jurgen Goering
Piano Forte Supply
www.pianofortesupply.com

Piattino Caster Cups distributor

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#628408 - 04/01/08 11:21 PM Re: Piano Wire
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 20752
Loc: Oakland
I doubt it is plated. Plating would flake off right away. Like I said, it is probably somebody else's wire rebranded, and the salesperson did not bother to get the manufacturer's spec sheets.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#628409 - 04/02/08 10:10 AM Re: Piano Wire
Stilamazed Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/12/07
Posts: 92
Loc: New Jersey
Supply,

If what DBD says is correct, maybe it is used on some of the pianos mentioned. I wouldn't know, you should though. BTW, Please continue with you're reasons regarding the disavantages of electro-plated wire. I purchased pounds of the wire, and if in fact it is inferior, i'll discontinue using it.

Thanks,

Mike

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#628410 - 04/07/08 01:53 PM Re: Piano Wire
Tom Tuner Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 246
Loc: Bainbridge, OH
Tin-plated wire used to sold for pianos in the tropics, but I don't believe anyone ever thought is was any better than unplated. Haven't seen that offered for sale in awhile. Wanamaker's in Philadelphia used to string their pianos with gold-plated wire, including the bass strings.

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#628411 - 04/14/08 06:51 AM Re: Piano Wire
pianokiwi Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/09/07
Posts: 12
Loc: New Zealand
There is a topic/thread "piano wires" on this site where some techs from Hungary have evaluated a number of brands of wire by comparing them side by side on a Steinway. They rated Suzuki and Mapes as top. New Octave also rated well. Roslau was OK but in their opinion not as good as Suzuki and Mapes.
BTW the piano looks good! I notice it is oblique strung which was a clever way of getting some of the benefits of overstringing without it actually being overstrung.
Keep up the good work!

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#628412 - 04/14/08 08:05 PM Re: Piano Wire
Stilamazed Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/12/07
Posts: 92
Loc: New Jersey
pianokiwi,

Thank you for you're input.

Mike

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#628413 - 04/15/08 05:04 AM Re: Piano Wire
Olek Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6359
Loc: France
Hello,

I am just back from an intensive training on new action installation with renner, and some work outside my town.

I dont know that wire brand here most if not all techs use Roslau (the blue quality, the red one is only less consistent with the diameters for what I know, it is the wire produced when the diamantyed tools have to be replaced, just befor they are - I've benn said)

In germany everything is made in view of the ISO normalisation, so if you have a cheap product it correspond with some normalized less precise measurment tolerance or breaking strain, or whatever.

I have seen very shiny wire used and a concert grand Gaveau from the 50 's, it sounded awful (the wire wounded awful) I only suspected that it was in cause as I did not have the opportunity to change some.

I Was said it was cheap grade of wire coming from England.

Don't now much more about it.

Very curious to see the findings of those Hungarian techs.

I've been wondering if the Susuki grade was not more suiteable for older instruments, I never was able to obtain breaking stain data for that wire.
Mapes seems to be highest breaking strain than Roslau.

To me roslau is the first choice, but this is easy to understand. It is indeed used in all prestigious brands, Japanese instruments being apart.

Inhamronicity does not relate to braeking strain directly, it relate with the softness of the metal.

A similar metal and a similar diameter will lend to the same tension, what is most wanted is to have enough force within the wire so its mechanical propreties are optimum , above 40 % BS is minimum, above 60 and before 80% is better, not really possible at the break most of the time)
THe BS is lowered 20 or 25 from its real point before any computation so 80 % mean 80 % of the minored value.

Best regards
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#628414 - 04/15/08 05:08 AM Re: Piano Wire
Olek Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6359
Loc: France
You have low sollicitation (less than 50 % and high iH on that piano, should be mounted with soft wire - tension seem around 60 Kg but IH computed a 8.6 at note 49 is way high.
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#628415 - 04/15/08 08:57 AM Re: Piano Wire
pianokiwi Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/09/07
Posts: 12
Loc: New Zealand

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#628416 - 04/15/08 05:21 PM Re: Piano Wire
Olek Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6359
Loc: France
Thank you Pianowiki
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#628417 - 04/15/08 06:16 PM Re: Piano Wire
Stilamazed Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/12/07
Posts: 92
Loc: New Jersey
Hello Kamin,

I entered the wire sizes you computed for all of the A & C notes, into this other scaling program. Having the sizes that you provided, i was able to use this scaling program to blend in the other sizes. I tried to keep the ih, loudness, tension, and percentage of breaking strength, within 10% from note to note. From what i understand when forced to choose between various factors, IH was of 1st importance, followed by Loudness, then % of breaking strength. I'm going to see how it sounds with the New Octave { btw, the hungarians said it is "Good Wire"} before i resort to softer wire.

Thanks,
Mike

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#628418 - 04/17/08 08:33 AM Re: Piano Wire
pianokiwi Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/09/07
Posts: 12
Loc: New Zealand
Kamin,
Thankyou for your information on BS - it helps confirm what I had seen somewhere in the past that around 70% BS is optimum.
I know a lot of pianos suffer from poor tone quality just above the break, and that there is typically around half a dozen or so low tenor notes that have BS below 60% - often dropping down to around 40%.
It makes me wonder why we don't typically see all these 6 or so notes as wound strings (rather than typically none,1 or 2) in order to bring the BS back above 60%.
Any ideas??

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#628419 - 04/17/08 09:28 AM Re: Piano Wire
Olek Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6359
Loc: France
Difficult to make very small wounded strings, that is the main problem there.

The relatively usual solution now is to use softer wire at the break, it can blend well afterthat, assuming it is yet piano wire.

When restringing old instruments who had yet that softer wire used, the problem only goes worse weh we use modern wire.

but even in the bass I have heard on Utube a few old grands that had clearly that "low sollicitation" tone , nazal and without the good roundness within. (the tone is not "pushed" as it is on a good sounding instrument).

I now ask for wounded strings made on soft wire (Paulello wire at that time is what I used) when I work on a pre WWI piano. This is always at the expencs of some power if you are in the 70Kg range but generally the tension is so high that it compensates for that (till the wire break !)

Cheers .
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#628420 - 04/18/08 05:31 AM Re: Piano Wire
pianokiwi Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/09/07
Posts: 12
Loc: New Zealand
Very interesting. You obviously have a lot of insight and experience in these matters.
I tried using Puresound wire on a 1882 Richard Lipp upright. I found that there was not enough "bite" to the sound compared to Roslau, but that may have been more due to the soundboard having lost resonance.
Also one of the new bass strings "exploded" after about 1/2 an hour at pitch and I had to splice the end of it.
In general would you recommend using Puresound wire - in particular around the break? Or would you recommend others such as Paulello?

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#628421 - 04/18/08 01:25 PM Re: Piano Wire
march56 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 7
Loc: San Diego CA.
Don't buy these, you can get them free on Craigslist. Just type in free piano!
-MC
_________________________
practice!

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#628422 - 04/18/08 02:08 PM Re: Piano Wire
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 20752
Loc: Oakland
 Quote:
In general would you recommend using Puresound wire - in particular around the break?
There are many problems with old scales that can be improved by better scaling. There was some discussion of rescaling pianos a while back. Do a search for it. I put a link to an Excel spreadsheet to do the calculations.

The Puresound pitch sounds like snake oil to me.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#628423 - 04/18/08 02:50 PM Re: Piano Wire
Olek Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6359
Loc: France
You are kind to me ! a lot of insight is probably a bit too much , as I am more an action specialist than a belly man, but we in France have that wire question very often as the French pianos used the Firminy wire a lot, and this quality (more than one quality in fact depending of the era) was softer than Poehlmann, may be Webster. It have a very particular tone related to French pianos, Roslau wire, even when the tension is just about the medium range, is providing a different tone for sure.

I am not big fan of the stainless wire (Firmini wire did not rust much BTW, but sometime it was surface treated) bcause I have seen it breaking (a little, not all the strings !) in the medium range, where the sollicitation is not that high, after a couple of years. The tone is very soft, it is pleasing but does not relate well to the original tone in my memory.

The dynamic is very very low for sure, so it may be accepteable but it is not still the real thing.

Paulello on the other hand, is a good compromise, but one have to know the tone is on the partial side more than the fundamental (the second partial is very present in the mix, that get better in time - around 2 years, as the wire stiffens, but it can be surprising at first sight.

But the wire (4 different grades, up to Modern wire) is piano wire (produced in Germany by the factory that produced the Poehllman wire before)

I am finishing a 1906 vertical Pleyel with bass and medium wire using paulello type O , translating to M or may be Roslau in the high treble. I will record the instrument so you can have a sampling (I'll try to find the recordings where one can hear the too low sollicitation of the bass strings)

I wrote to Roslau to ask if by chance they would consider producing a softer quality, and they answered me that it is too complcated for a very small market (also because of the necessary ISO /DIN normalization they have to use) piano wire is only 10% of their wire production, they will not do nothing for us unfortunately.

very old forte pianas (very very low tension) it should be possible to use iron wire, a specialist told me onc ethat he used for a long time a really cheap quality of iron wire (not at all intended for musical purpose) and had the best results with it.


There are many quality availeables in many places, the problem is testing, having some breaking strain data, buying small quantity, etc...

I'll try to write to our hungarian friend to see if he can plan another testing, may be with some more precise data behind (tension, and sollicitation data, kind of tone he likes, etc)

It is very difficult to compare side by side and explain what we hear, that was a very interesting experiment, too bad nobody seem to bite in with some questions.

Rescaling is of course useful, but it is simply not always enough, as long as the sollicitation stay poor. Usual process is to lower the tension to lower iH, it is never for free.


Cheers
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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