Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Gifts and supplies for the musician
SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
Ad (Piano Sing)
How to Make Your Piano Sing
Who's Online
135 registered (accordeur, 36251, antony, anotherscott, 42 invisible), 1670 Guests and 16 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Pianos
Topic Options
#628952 - 07/04/07 04:59 PM New Member: Greetings/questions (Oh no! ETDs again!)
GlennC Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/02/07
Posts: 5
Loc: Upstate NY
Greetings to all,

I'm new to this forum, but have been reading for a few weeks. There's lots of good information here and I thank you all for being so willing to share your expertise.

How I got into the field is a very long story that I won't inflict on you. Suffice it to say that about 20yrs ago I had the privilege to study the trade for about two years full-time with a true master. In addition to other positions, he was a concert tuner for the Baldwin factory for several years and was "on the road" with some prominent artists. He taught me well, but I thought I needed to make money another way and have spent the past 20 years in an unrelated field.

I've decided that it's time to "follow my bliss" and become involved in the piano world full time (I'm currently the pianist at my church, teach lessons, etc). My original "master's" son (a lifelong tuner/technician himself) has agreed to act as a mentor.

Sorry to ramble on. One of my questions is regarding electronic tuning devices (ETDs). My original training was the "ear only" method, with tuning starting with C 523.3, then the C an octave below, then the temperament starting with the F to C fifth, etc. While my tuning hammer technique is good, ear tuning is still a challenge and I am considering an ETD as an aid. When I was studying, the Conn was the only choice. Now there are hundreds, but probably only a few that are any good. My initial research seems to indicate that the Peterson ST-490 looks good. I'm also considering TuneLab, which gets a lot of positive comments and adds the versatility of a laptop/handheld (I'm a computer guy). I'd really like to find a used Yamaha PT-100, but they seem pretty scarce.

You've got a lot more experience than me. What ETDs should I consider? Bear in mind that my budget is not unlimited. A new SAT III is beyond my means. I see they also offer older reconditioned units. Are they worth it?

Also, I like to read/study. I've been using these books:

Travis, "Let's Tune Up"
White, "Piano Tuning and Allied Arts"
Reblitz, "Piano Servicing, Tuning and Rebuilding" (2nd Ed.)
Fischer, "Piano Tuning"

For current piano information:

Fine, "The Piano Book" (4th Ed, along with 2006/7 Supplement)

History:

Dolge- "Pianos and Their Makers" (interesting and fun to read).

I like the history and I'm also a trained harpsichord and violin maker.

What other books should I consider?

Agian, my thanks for your willingness to share experience and expertise.

Regards,

Glenn

Top
(ad PTG 757) The Value of PTG Membership
The Value of a PTG Membership
#628953 - 07/04/07 05:47 PM Re: New Member: Greetings/questions (Oh no! ETDs again!)
Keith Roberts Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/04/04
Posts: 1984
Loc: Murphys, Ca
For pianos the Verituner 100 or the RCT 4.0 which is a software program is delivering the best tunings with the note analysis capabilities. I wouldn't consider the Peterson, the Conn or the PT 100 if you are serious. Tune Lab is a slightly cheaper and is very good too. A used SAT II or III would be a fine choice. My SAT I lasted a long time. The SAT if you know how to use it delivers quality tunings.

No one tunes to C much anymore.
_________________________
Keith Roberts
Associate, PTG
Keith's Piano Service
Hathaway Pines,Ca

Top
#628954 - 07/04/07 05:56 PM Re: New Member: Greetings/questions (Oh no! ETDs again!)
rkw Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/27/07
Posts: 141
Loc: Conway Arkansas 72034
Keith, I am curious. Why has tuning from C fallen out of favor?
_________________________
Bob, Retired Piano Technician
http://sites.google.com/site/sixfigurepianoservice/

Top
#628955 - 07/04/07 07:08 PM Re: New Member: Greetings/questions (Oh no! ETDs again!)
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1677
Loc: Chicagoland
Hey Glen,

For the latest in technology, the Verituner stands above the crowd - simply by having to make less assumptions about inharmonicity from note to note. The custom style function allows to replicate pretty much any aural approach, or use one created by another user. It's really the only machine I'm comfortable saying that you only need to aurally adjust unisons to get stellar tunings.

Get a used, or discontinued pocket pc (high Mhz..) and purchase the software for a less expensive option.

Ron Koval
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


Top
#628956 - 07/04/07 07:24 PM Re: New Member: Greetings/questions (Oh no! ETDs again!)
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21922
Loc: Oakland
Look the number of posts about how to use various ETDs. Then compare them to the number of posts about how to tune aurally. If you want to develop speed, simplicity, and confidence in your tuning, it will be quite evident what you should spend your time on.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
#628957 - 07/05/07 12:33 AM Re: New Member: Greetings/questions (Oh no! ETDs again!)
Keith Roberts Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/04/04
Posts: 1984
Loc: Murphys, Ca
Hey Ron, from what I read from someone who was doing a side by side comparison with the RCT 4.0 and the Verituner said the tunings were essentially identical. The verituner is no longer a cut above.

No one tunes to C because until you tune out the piano, you can't be sure where the A will end up. A440 is considered concert or standard pitch in America. Sure it will be close to A440 with the C but with the electronic tuners you can get it closer if not exact. The whole symphony tunes to A440. Even if you don't have a symphoney to play with, the guitar tuners are really accurate and the guitars are in tune instead of being tuned to the piano.
_________________________
Keith Roberts
Associate, PTG
Keith's Piano Service
Hathaway Pines,Ca

Top
#628958 - 07/05/07 07:38 AM Re: New Member: Greetings/questions (Oh no! ETDs again!)
rkw Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/27/07
Posts: 141
Loc: Conway Arkansas 72034
Thank you, Keith. The reason for the question is that commencing with C is the way I learned many years ago. After reading your remark, I wondered if I had been doing something wrong all of those years.

My tuning is exclusively aural. In my years prepping the Steinway D for the Arkansas Symphony Orchestra, I never seemed to have a problem with the A. (I have a rather unorthodox method of temperament which may account for never having the problem.)

Still, what you say makes perfectly good sense. Had I to do it all over again, I would learn via your method. At the very least it lowers the risk of a mistake, particularly for those who are relatively new to the craft.
_________________________
Bob, Retired Piano Technician
http://sites.google.com/site/sixfigurepianoservice/

Top
#628959 - 07/05/07 08:51 AM Re: New Member: Greetings/questions (Oh no! ETDs again!)
Robert Scott Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 287
Loc: Minnesota
 Quote:
Originally posted by Keith Roberts:
...No one tunes to C because until you tune out the piano, you can't be sure where the A will end up. A440 is considered concert or standard pitch in America. Sure it will be close to A440 with the C but with the electronic tuners you can get it closer if not exact...
If you are using a C5 fork instead of an A4 fork, I would not worry about it. With a typical amount of stretch, the stretch at C5 is about 0.58 cents over a no-stretch tuning. Given that some pianos may require a little more and some a little less stretch, the variation in the C5 pitch due to custom stretching is probably no more than 0.3 cents. Now consider that a steel tuning fork changes pitch by 1 cent for every 7 degrees Fahrenheit temperature change, that 0.3 cent variable is equivalent to less than 4 degrees of temperature change. So if you are going to worry about the variations due to starting at C5, you ought to worry just as much about a 4 degree temperature variation. How many of you A4 fork users can guarantee that your fork is always within 4 degrees every time you use it?

Robert Scott
Ypsilanti, Michigan
_________________________
Robert Scott
Hopkins, Minnesota
http://www.tunelab-world.com

Top
#628960 - 07/05/07 08:59 AM Re: New Member: Greetings/questions (Oh no! ETDs again!)
Keith Roberts Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/04/04
Posts: 1984
Loc: Murphys, Ca
Bob, Actually I'm just guessing. The the octave width being adjustable and different for each piano would mean if you make the C your fixed starting point, the A can end up in different places. It may not be off enough to make any difference and with your method probably works really well on a good piano. When you come across a piano that is poorly scaled you might end up farther off.
_________________________
Keith Roberts
Associate, PTG
Keith's Piano Service
Hathaway Pines,Ca

Top
#628961 - 07/05/07 09:21 AM Re: New Member: Greetings/questions (Oh no! ETDs again!)
Keith Roberts Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/04/04
Posts: 1984
Loc: Murphys, Ca
Robert, according to the parameters of the tuning test to be a RPT, you have to know your pitch source and adjust for variences in that source to come up with the correct pitch. Not knowing how to or having a pitch source that is unstable or unreliable is your fault.

Now tell me: If you don't have an A 440 pitch source, how can you claim the piano is at A440.00? That's like looking at a moving car and telling me it's going 54.2 mph. I want to see the radar gun output or I won't believe you.
_________________________
Keith Roberts
Associate, PTG
Keith's Piano Service
Hathaway Pines,Ca

Top
#628962 - 07/05/07 11:28 AM Re: New Member: Greetings/questions (Oh no! ETDs again!)
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21922
Loc: Oakland
Worrying about whether a piano is at A 440, A 439.95, or A 440.05 is like worrying about whether your car is doing 25.025 mph in a 25 mph zone. This is how ETDs make it so difficult to tune a piano!
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
#628963 - 07/05/07 02:07 PM Re: New Member: Greetings/questions (Oh no! ETDs again!)
rkw Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/27/07
Posts: 141
Loc: Conway Arkansas 72034
Robert: Thank you. I have never used these expensive electronic tuners, and know nothing about them. The question may seem academic, but do the electronics TOTALLY do away with the problem inherent in a fork? or is there some sort of trade-off?

Keith: Your point is well-taken. Actually switching to an A fork requires no effort. I would use my A435 on rare occasion. It's just a matter of changing an old habit. (That's the real problem.)

Semipro: With this I would agree; though some techs are purists, or perfectionists. It has to be 100% or they feel like they haven't done the job properly. However, to me, trying to achieve perfection in the imperfect instrument that is "the piano," can be an exercise in frustration. Life's too short for this. Sometimes, you just have to let the piano win. And so, A440.05? I can live with that.
_________________________
Bob, Retired Piano Technician
http://sites.google.com/site/sixfigurepianoservice/

Top
#628964 - 07/05/07 03:51 PM Re: New Member: Greetings/questions (Oh no! ETDs again!)
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21922
Loc: Oakland
Electronics will have their own set of problems. They rely on transducers, which are imperfect in their own right. Without knowing the algorithms of both the software and the hardware and their limitations, it is difficult to know what they are or how good or bad they are. It all boils down to how bad is it before it sounds bad, which is a question that is basic training for an aural tuner, but difficult if not impossible for electronics to decide.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
#628965 - 07/05/07 04:14 PM Re: New Member: Greetings/questions (Oh no! ETDs again!)
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1677
Loc: Chicagoland
Hi Keith,

"doing a side by side comparison with the RCT 4.0 and the Verituner said the tunings were essentially identical"

Yes, I read that as well.... On a nicely scaled piano "essentially" meaning within a cent or so. Close enough for rough tuning, but the "devil is in the details"!

No matter how "smart" a unit gets, if only a few notes are measured, it has to make assumptions about the notes not measured...

The Verituner is still the only one that is set up to take advantage of full measuring to calculate a musical tuning.
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


Top
#628966 - 07/05/07 09:41 PM Re: New Member: Greetings/questions (Oh no! ETDs again!)
Jeff A. Smith, RPT Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/01/03
Posts: 476
Loc: Angola, Indiana USA
 Quote:
My original training was the "ear only" method, with tuning starting with C 523.3, then the C an octave below, then the temperament starting with the F to C fifth, etc.
Glenn, I spent years tuning with what was probably almost the same system as yours. I switched to an A fork system based on a series of four contiguous major thirds, F3 to A4. In a fairly short time my results -- even on bad pianos -- was better than what I was able to consistently attain with the previous system, even after years of practice. The reasons why are a fairly deep subject, and probably a bit off the general trend of the thread.

I bring that up because, if the temperament is one reason you're not happy with your aural work, you might consider converting to a different system.

About ETDs:

I agree with what was said above about the Conn, Peterson and Yamaha units -- all to be avoided for serious students.

The issue to me is exactly how you want to use an ETD to get better as an aural tuner. My recommendation on what to buy might be different, depending on the methodology you envision and how seriously you take aural tuning.

One thing to consider with pocket PC formats is that the handheld of today is rapidly being phased out. Will large corporations still intentionally or unintentionally cater to our small niche market, or will pocket PC tuners be forced to stock up on used units? Will ETD software makers adapt to some new device, or return to the laptop? I don't know the answer to those questions; maybe someone here has some thoughts.

You asked about rebuilt Accu-Tuners: My first ETD was a rebuilt SAT I, which I got from Inventronics for $600.00. That was the cheapest unit they had at the time. It was sold with a guarantee and Paul Sanderson was very helpful before and after the sale. You have to e-mail Inventronics for a current list of rebuilt units and prices. Eventually I upgraded to a new SAT III and got a very generous trade-in allowance.

For many things a basically aural tuner (which I am) likes to use an ETD for, I highly recommend the SAT. For one thing, it clearly reads partials in situations where other units I've worked with have trouble.

I also have Verituner 100 ("The Box"). It calculates very musical tunings.

TuneLab could also be a good option for you, particularly considering the cost factor. I've worked with the trial version some, and the program is quite a value.

Jeff
_________________________
Jeff A. Smith
Registered Piano Technician
Indiana, USA

Top
#628967 - 07/06/07 01:48 AM Re: New Member: Greetings/questions (Oh no! ETDs again!)
Cy Shuster, RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/18/05
Posts: 3448
Loc: Albuquerque, NM
Rule out any ETDs which don't have a microphone (Conn, Peterson, VT100, etc.). There's a huge difference in the modern generation which measure the inharmonicity of each piano individually.

Among the SAT, Verituner, RCT, and TuneLab, your preference may be due to the user interface and/or price. TuneLab hits the mark in both aspects for me, and it has a trial version. You can run it on a laptop or almost any device running Pocket Windows (like some cellphones).

I have links to all of them on my site.

--Cy--
_________________________
Cy Shuster, RPT
505-265-4234
www.shusterpiano.com
www.facebook.com/shusterpiano
Albuquerque, New Mexico

Registered Piano Technician
Dampp-Chaser Certified Installer
PianoDisc Certified Service Technician

Top
#628968 - 07/06/07 11:30 AM Re: New Member: Greetings/questions (Oh no! ETDs again!)
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1677
Loc: Chicagoland
"Rule out any ETDs which don't have a microphone (Conn, Peterson, VT100, etc.). "

That should be PT100... that Yamaha scope? - NOT the VT100, the Verituner "box"...
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


Top
#628969 - 07/06/07 11:33 AM Re: New Member: Greetings/questions (Oh no! ETDs again!)
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21922
Loc: Oakland
How would any of them work without a microphone?
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
#628970 - 07/07/07 11:56 PM Re: New Member: Greetings/questions (Oh no! ETDs again!)
R Barber Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/12/05
Posts: 141
Loc: Morgan Hill, CA
I think they all have microphones. Lesser ETDs lack microprocessors which handle the inharmonicity. Some may have microprocessors, but only to control an LCD display and 12-tone temperments.

I have a hard time describing my Verituner 100 as an electronic tuning device. I always introduce my third ear as a tuning computer.
_________________________
Richard Barber, piano technician
Santa Clara Valley, CA
tune@pianoregulation.com

Top
#628971 - 07/22/07 12:28 AM Re: New Member: Greetings/questions (Oh no! ETDs again!)
Cy Shuster, RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/18/05
Posts: 3448
Loc: Albuquerque, NM
 Quote:
Originally posted by R Barber:
I think they all have microphones. [/b]
The Conns and Petersons (which Schaff still sells, surprisingly) do not have microphones. They work with "stretch tables" that you enter in, based on the most similar piano to what's in front of you (we get requests here for these tables from time to time).

We owe a great debt to these first primitive tuners, though; it's only through them that people like Dr. Al Sanderson and Bill Garlick, working together, were able to understand what we do when we tune aurally, and to make new devices that measure and compensate for inharmonicity.

--Cy--
_________________________
Cy Shuster, RPT
505-265-4234
www.shusterpiano.com
www.facebook.com/shusterpiano
Albuquerque, New Mexico

Registered Piano Technician
Dampp-Chaser Certified Installer
PianoDisc Certified Service Technician

Top
#628972 - 07/22/07 12:58 AM Re: New Member: Greetings/questions (Oh no! ETDs again!)
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21922
Loc: Oakland
If they do not have microphones, how do they sense the vibrations in the strings?
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
#628973 - 07/22/07 12:16 PM Re: New Member: Greetings/questions (Oh no! ETDs again!)
Jeff A. Smith, RPT Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/01/03
Posts: 476
Loc: Angola, Indiana USA
I've never worked with the newer Petersons, but I've occasionally used borrowed Conn units when not working on acoustic pianos. I also watched a guy tune an acoustic piano with one once. They have a small microphone with a cord, that plugs into the front of the unit. I'd guess the Petersons must have microphones as well, or else you wouldn't know how notes you were tuning compared to the chosen stretch table.

For tuning pianos the Peterson would have to be a step above the Conn, since I don't think Conn ever made a unit with the ability to use programmed stretch tables; although you could take a set of numbers and tune to them manually if you wanted.

As far as I know the Conn hasn't been made for awhile. Not long after I started tuning pianos, I got the Conn Strobotuner manual for piano tuning and studied it. I was an aural tuner, but I wanted to know what was going on with the other method and be able to answer questions.

With the Conn you could either manually tune to a set of numbers or directly match partials as you went along.

I know a couple of techs who make limited use of the Yamaha unit, and it has a built-in mike. I don't think you can manually tune with the Yamaha by directly matching partials, at least not with accuracy. I think you just dial up one of several stetch tables it has, all of which are intended for Yamaha pianos. Possibly it can also give you a non-stretched reference for each note, but I'm pretty sure you can't set offsets.

As others have said, unless a unit can measure and take into account the inharmonicity of individual pianos, it can't be trusted to produce a high-quality calculated tuning.

Jeff
_________________________
Jeff A. Smith
Registered Piano Technician
Indiana, USA

Top
#628974 - 07/22/07 12:41 PM Re: New Member: Greetings/questions (Oh no! ETDs again!)
Cy Shuster, RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/18/05
Posts: 3448
Loc: Albuquerque, NM
 Quote:
Originally posted by BDB:
If they do not have microphones, how do they sense the vibrations in the strings? [/b]
Yeah, that was dumb on my part; of course they must have microphones. I just checked the Schaff catalog, and the Petersons they sell all do.

One model allows custom stretch tables. I guess that's the key feature that modern ETDs have: the ability to measure inharmonicity, and calculate a custom tuning for a given piano.

No microphone - sheesh! =;-o There's my boner of the month...

--Cy--
_________________________
Cy Shuster, RPT
505-265-4234
www.shusterpiano.com
www.facebook.com/shusterpiano
Albuquerque, New Mexico

Registered Piano Technician
Dampp-Chaser Certified Installer
PianoDisc Certified Service Technician

Top
#628975 - 07/22/07 12:45 PM Re: New Member: Greetings/questions (Oh no! ETDs again!)
Jeff A. Smith, RPT Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/01/03
Posts: 476
Loc: Angola, Indiana USA
I knew what you basically meant, that they can't read inharmonicity. The error went right by me too, until someone else mentioned it.

Jeff
_________________________
Jeff A. Smith
Registered Piano Technician
Indiana, USA

Top
#628976 - 07/24/07 10:51 PM Re: New Member: Greetings/questions (Oh no! ETDs again!)
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3324
Loc: Madison, WI USA
RKW, I got in on this thread late but I agree with what was said about tuning from A versus C. But the big HOWEVER, is that if you want to pass the PTG Tuning Exam, you have to start from A4 and you need to have a very well calibrated tuning fork. I also started out with a C fork and used a 4ths and 5ths temperament sequence and while my tunings sounded pretty good, they weren't really Equal Temperament (ET), at least not by today's finicky standards.

I've been tuning for 38 years now and have been an RPT for 25. The last few years, I have been doing some writing to help people who want to pass the PTG Tuning Exam. I targeted my writing mainly to people who use ETD's but the material is also very useful for those who want to learn a new system that starts from an A fork. While it does involve the 4 contiguous Major 3rds as a basis, don't be intimidated by that. In fact, you only need to estimate two major 3rds, the most familiar ones, F3-A3 and A3-C#4. After you tune the next two notes off of your estimate, the results tell you whether your initial istimate of the A3-F3 major 3rd was correct or not and whether it needs to be widened or narrowed.

It is a fool-proof system. It may be a little tough for beginners to learn but anyone who has tuned for years as you have will find the step by step instructions very easy to follow. You'll be able to correct any inherent unevenness there may have been with your previous method and surely be able to pass the PTG Tuning Exam with very high scores if you learn and follow my system.

All you need do is request: Tuning Articles by private e-mail to: Billbrpt@aol.com.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

Top
#628977 - 07/24/07 11:27 PM Re: New Member: Greetings/questions (Oh no! ETDs again!)
rkw Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/27/07
Posts: 141
Loc: Conway Arkansas 72034
Thank you, Bill.

Had I to do it over again, I would follow your suggestion from the outset. There is an undeniable logic to it.
_________________________
Bob, Retired Piano Technician
http://sites.google.com/site/sixfigurepianoservice/

Top

Moderator:  Piano World 
What's Hot!!
Christmas Header
Christmas Lights at Piano World Headquarters in Maine 2014
-------------------
The December Free Piano Newsletter
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(ad) Yamaha CP Music Rest Promo
Yamaha CP Music Rest Promo
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Seiler Pianos
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Sheet Music Plus (125)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Need help picking a Beethoven Piano Sonata Slow movement
by oaklandraiders76
12/20/14 04:50 PM
What are some great ways to learn the blues?
by brucepiano
12/20/14 04:37 PM
Do you recommend a back cover on upright with Dampp-Chaser?
by thestar
12/20/14 03:56 PM
kawai model SA-8E upright
by EthanHawaii
12/20/14 02:28 PM
Piano Felt
by Modern Conner
12/20/14 01:37 PM
Forum Stats
77375 Members
42 Forums
160021 Topics
2349940 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
Gift Ideas for Music Lovers!
Find the Perfect Gift for the Music Lovers on your List!
Visit our online store today.

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission