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Hi all,

First, for those that are no doubt wondering why Jerry is posting all day long? I've been home sick all week...

At our last tuners meeting this past Tuesday which I was unable to attend at a local dealership due to being sick, the person doing the meeting for our chapter and, who also, just happens to work FOR the dealership not only as a tuner but as a salesman said that the value, or appraisal worth of pianos is dropping. In other words, he said, a piano that was worth let's say, $1,800.00 5 years ago, is only worth $900 now. (Where and how did he come up with this price?) When asked WHY? He said "because they are not selling."

Before I go any further with this I would like to make a statement about something that was said at one of our meetings a long time ago.

At one point, a couple of "technician/salesmen" that work there have said in the past that all of the older pianos should be condemned so that people will buy new ones.

For the record, I TOTALLY DISAGREED WITH them. I said, "if they are worth fixing, fix them. If not then, trade them in. It is not fair or honest to the customer to simply condemn all pianos for the sake of another sale for yourself!"

They did not like to hear that as salesmen. I believe they were more interested in sales, rather than the customer themselves. At least that is my personal opinion on that one.

I wonder what your opinions on this might be not only as dealers reading this but, also as full time technicians?

Pianos, for the most part over the years if well taken care of, have always at least retained their value. More or less.. This would be the first time that I know of, where pianos are actually losing value because "they are not selling." IF this is true?

Could it be simply, because they are a dealership and want more sales?

Could it be true that because pianos are not selling that even the used ones are also losing their value as well?

The dealerships are not selling very many new pianos or used either for that matter HERE but, people are buying used pianos from elsewhere like estates, out of the newspaper etc.

Does this mean that dealerships will be the dictator's of the appraisal values of pianos in particular used ones selling between private parties?

What are your opinions on this matter?

Looking forward to your responses and thoughts.

Those that sell new pianos most often tell prospective clients old or older pinaos have no value.
Funny those that use to sell the Korean pinaos 10 years ago are now saying don't buy a used Korean piano, buy the new shiny black one from China.
Have you seen the prices of 10 year old Korean uprights, they are almost free. Some old vintage pianos sell for more.
When selling new cheap pianos the client will take that hook line and sinker when they see the price of the new xyz brand.

10 years from now we may see another picture.

Jerry,

When my father and I were involved with the Heintzman Co. here in Canada back in the 70’s in the warehouse at the very back were a bunch of old uprights. These were the tall old uprights previous to 1936. When I discovered them, I asked my father if we could approach Bill H. about purchasing them,and restoring them to sell as good used instruments.

My father told me that the company was sending them to the dump/ landfill to get them off the market so they would sell more new instruments. It was part of the overall marketing strategy to sell new goods and have people “consume” after the Second War. So this part of your story is correct, and not just for the piano industry. The car industry has done this also and a long time back. Most of the old Model T’s would still work today if they were around…the car manufacturers did not want this.

For the used piano market here in Vancouver, the problem is not the quality of the used pieces. The problem is saturation point….there are too many used instruments for sale here (more than 1000 units) none of it is selling so what can they be worth? Not very much in this market, but they will have value in another market. At the moment we have too much used equipment on the market here, and this will drive the value of ALL OF IT down. But with this glut of instruments on the market here, I believe it is also affecting the new equipment sales too. I mean if folks look around and see a lot of used stuff not selling; will they buy a new instrument to end up in the same position a few years down the road?

Example: I have a 1980 Lesage upright for sale at $1500.00. Very good used instrument, but no takers. One the very same sold in Quebec City last year for $2600.00. A place 3000 miles from here…..

I think for the present economic situation on this continent, it is safe to say that ALL GOODS have depreciated to a certain extent. I mean look at the price of a barrel of oil. Last summer just 6 months ago it was priced on the open market at $150 a barrel or more. So everyone stopped buying it and driving last summer….no demand for the product creates an excess of this product and the price tanks ……today oil opened at 44 dollars a barrel. Economists call this a “market correction” I believe…

I am of the opinion that consumers have not realized that they are the ones who will dictate the prices of the market, by consumption or by not consuming…….

Well at the moment I think we are in for a “world market correction”.
But ever since the Wall Street fiasco happened my phone has gone berserk with folks wanting to repair the old stuff rather than purchase a new unit….

And then since Christmas I have sold 4 high end restorations of period pieces…. All of them previous to 1930 in age……one thing about the market is you will NEVER figure it out. You are just along for the ride…..enjoy or not enjoy…it is like the weather…….

www.silverwoodpianos.com

I am not an expert here but I have don't don't believe anything old should be condemned.
I've had two antique dressers for about 16 years now. I don't know how old they really are great.

I wonder... do you think this is a good time to buy a piano???

I was planning to wait a year or two but if I can get a good price now AND support the piano market - that would be good for both of us.

My tuner says one of his older tuner friends always says the pianos he gets in are worth twice as much as he actually sells them for. I think craigslist is a cause, and also the other stuff that is often mentioned, like digitals. I think digitals have upped the expectation of sound quality too since they sound better than some entry uprights.

Yes Craigslist has been a major reason for falling prices.

I can give countless stories of people who purchased a used pinao from Craigslist that I would not even think of repairing.

And Dan is correct in our market there are many used pinaos available and many of these new pianos are not necessary.

Rod,

There is a good point in your first posting but hidden somewhat. I believe there will eventually be a backlash of some sort against the new cheaper instruments, and soon, just like the discovery about digitals being worthless 5 minutes after you buy one.

You mentioned that there are a lot of Korean pianos for sale here and for almost nothing. This is very true and I can confirm this also for this area. Now people are going to look at that and say to themselves “will this happen to my new Asian built instrument?” I mean if it has happened to the early Japanese stuff and now the Korean stuff who can deny that the very same will happen to the Chinese/Indonesian equipment too?

You are correct also in your observation that most of the new stuff here is not necessary for this market, but a certain segment of our population here refuses to purchase anything that is used, period.

Yes I have seen some nightmare purchases from the free sites for used goods too….

The whole idea of building cheap stuff is to have it wear out and have the consumer purchase another model. This creates a never- ending consumer of cheap crappy goods that are no good to begin with.

Here is a very interesting fact I found out from the Canadian rep for Blüthner. Would you like to know where the new big market for Blüthner is developing at the moment? China. They are purchasing as many models as they can. Interesting to see that the Chinese are supplying North America with cheap goods and taking the money and purchasing quality……and not just pianos ok? Cars and tools and all kinds of good German quality stuff….

Kymber
Now is a very good time to purchase any goods you are thinking about. We have been doing the same here……..

www.silverwoodpianos..com

This is my first post...i have absolutely NO idea where it will show up or how i'll be able to see the reply...quickly, please, is a Pramberger Young Chang PE116 in excellent condition worth 1600$??...i feel good about it but i don't know if there are any landmines...thank you for your help...maybe you could reply to:

jhopkin3@yahoo.com

It seems like some build pianos like computers.
Not knowing we do not replace our pianos in the same manner as electronics.

Perhaps if it keeps up we will be. :rolleyes:

pianoman11,
I sent you an email. Best to do a bit of reading about the forum previous to posting so that you don't get blasted by one of the grumps around here.....did I write that?? Must have been looking in the mirror when I typed that......anyways welcome to the forum......

www.silverwoodpianos.com

That is another thing mentioned at the meeting that I had forgotten about, craigslist, and others. Along with so much other disinformation circulating about the internet pertaining to pianos, piano prices and the simplicity of the inner workings of them. We see these examples on the Piano Forum all the time. "I wouldn't pay more than XXX for a piano." If a dealer pipes in, they get blasted as if they know nothing about the market or true piano prices.

Another question to think about would be, are we going backward with the general public's knowledge and/or awareness of pianos and piano prices due to misinformation being presented? Or, is this all inner related to the economy in general?

I had more than a few come in and say my Walters are only worth $,$$$ because they heard or read that they are selling for that price.

Hard to work around it when another dealer may be putting that unrealistic info out there.

The price of any commodity is what you can get for it. Read the PTG 1914-1917 book. W B White stated firmly that pianos of the day should last at the most 20 years before junking. Those are the pianos we still work on today. The makers were complaining about the sales pitch of a "piano to last a lifetime." Can't sell many new pianos that way.

I regret missing the meeting, Jerry, but I did earn bonus points with the wife (and got rewarded for it!)

Anyway, I regret missing the meeting because it sounds like it might have been an interesting discussion. One thing he said he was going to touch on was the ethics of attempting to fix an un-fixable piano.

Regarding market prices, Sam is right. It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that piano sales are suffering here in Michigan, considering we have the highest unemployment rate in the country.

My father always specialized in the pianos that other techs didn't want to mess with... the old, beat-up uprights, spinets, consoles, etc. Some might try to argue that he shouldn't have repaired those pianos, that he should've told the clients that their pianos were junk and to sell them a new one or point them in the direction of a salesperson.

But one thing my father understood and I have experience firsthand (as I'm sure everyone here has) is both the pull of an instrument as a family heirloom and also the pull of getting something cheap that provides enjoyment. Most people who own pianos are not concert pianists, nor anything even close. They just want something to play Andrew Lloyd Weber tunes or church hymns on. They just want something that little Madison can practice on and who knows if Madison will even continue piano lessons for any length of time?

My job, as I see it, is to get the piano in the best operating condition that I can within the budget the customer can afford. (This kind of ties in with Keith's thread about "Why tune a piano?"... most people can't even tell when their piano is out of tune, much less when it is out of regulation).

So... I'm kind of getting off topic here, but the value of a piano is tied intimately with the value of servicing said piano. I think everyone, including piano techs, have to re-adjust their expectations in this economy.

I would guess there has always been some degree of tension between new piano sales and technicians. Since the 1st of January I have looked at a total of six pianos that people are thinking about fixing up and keeping. Some are worth it, some not.

I was speaking with a sales rep before our chapter meeting Tuesday evening, and he told me that during Christmas sales were absolutely dead.
So far this month, they have sold six pianos, four lower end and two high end pianos.

Most of the new calls I get are from people, who bought a piano off of Craiglist or from the want ads. So as long as unemployment doesnt leap skyward, my guess is people will be buying mostly used pianos with the expectation they will have to spend some money to fix them up if they need it.....most do!!!

“I wouldn't pay more than XXX for a piano." If a dealer pipes in, they get blasted as if they know nothing about the market or true piano prices.

Another question to think about would be, are we going backward with the general public's knowledge and/or awareness of pianos and piano prices due to misinformation being presented? Or, is this all inner related to the economy in general?”
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There is an ongoing and continuous problem with this on PW, I would agree with this statement Jerry. What I have observed is that often times members state “opinions” as “facts”. It seems, at times that a good percentage of the members do not want to read the truth about some of the issues that permeate not only this forum, but the marketplace in general.

I do not think that this problem is indigenous to the forum here. I would presume that ALL forums have this problem, the plumber’s forum, electrician’s forum, hair dressing forum etc.etc. Most of those forums are probably filled up with trolls doing un- repairable damage to those markets for an entertainment value I will never understand…..

One of the problems that I have observed is that folks tend to forget that this is the internet and statements MUST be taken with a grain of salt. Especially from members who refuse to identify themselves correctly, and truthfully. They are free to spout any disinformation and inaccuracies that they desire, and do so; taking no personal responsibility for the damage it may cause the rest of us, or the market for that matter.

Rod’s posting a couple above this is a good example. Folks will read somewhere that Charles Walters should be priced at X and then when the instruments are not, they complain. Now we can’t pin those complaints entirely on PW, but dealers of new goods tend to eat each other in that way, and not just in the musical instrument business……

People tend to forget that the price of an instrument in Chicago will of course be different than the same instrument in the middle of Kansas….. What Sam states is very true; a commodity is only worth what a consumer will pay for it. Now that consumer living in a metropolis like New York would expect the price to be higher than in North Carolina…. To expect the price to be the same is somewhat unrealistic…. And one could put forward a good argument for price fixing…….

We all collectively on this continent, in your country and mine, have allowed ourselves to be convinced that cheaper and faster is better. In some cases it might be, but in the arts and performing arts, I think this is a fallacy. There is no shortcut to being a technician, or a performing artist. In other words there is no substitute for hard work and dedication in this field, at either end of the spectrum.

Some will see value in old equipment and some will not. In reality it depends upon the definition of the word “value” in a person’s life. For some it is financial value. For others it is sentimental.

I just gave a single mom with 3 kids a free old upright….cracked sounding board, broken cabinet parts, action all worn out….. They are playing it every day all day with BIG smiles and fun all around. Now that is the best value that I have ever seen……

www.silverwoodpianos.com

Seems to me that "some" dealers, could be even most of them may be trying to get us as technicians on their side for the sales purposes as much as possible in these harder times for them. I can understand that, but only to a certain degree of honesty. Honesty is a MUST for me anyway! Deceit or outright lying for the sake of a sale is, well, I won't stand for it.

It also seems to me that again, "some dealers" are trying to manipulate the used piano pricing market to as low as possible.

I'm on the side of the client. I'm working for them. We all are. They are, our livelihood.

The client relies on us to give them on honest opinion on their piano and an honest opinion on X brand if they are purchasing a new one and I give it.

I know of one dealership in particular that insists that all pianos 30 years and older should be condemned. Yet, many are worth repairing. That just isn't right.

Trying to force the technician/s to agree to condemnation isn't ethical at all IMO. Neither is trying to bring the market value down intentionally.

I remember when one of the dealers started selling Kimball. They unequivocally stated that they had improved so much that they are actually fabulous pianos. When I confronted the salesman on that one face to face with "who you trying to BS?" The salesman simply said "well, we sell what we have to sell." As he laughed. I said well, good luck but, I'm not helping you out on that one.

One fact will always remain. We all have something to sell. Ourselves! Those of us who are the most honest and reputable will make it. Those who are not, won't. My reputation is worth more than anything else to me and my clients know it.

Well said Jerry

Speaking of low-priced pianos on Craigslist....

A couple months ago I got two pianos.

This one , built in 1956, was $349.
This one , built in 1950, was free.

Both pianos are, IMO, in fairly good condition. The 1956 piano is in better shape overall, but I like the tone (except the low bass) of the 1950 piano better.
The 1950 piano's finish isn't in as good of a shape, and there's a couple keys that occasionally stick.
Both pianos are the same make and model. They have slightly different scale designs due to the manufacturer changing the design of that piano during that time frame.

I uploaded a few songs on the 1950 piano here and here , and the last one also on the 1956 piano here . (The first link of songs was recorded a couple weeks ago, right after I had tuned that piano).
Also here's a video (and better-quality audio track of same) of me playing a weekly technology-oriented video podcast's theme song on the 1950 piano.

Ok seeing as I got both pianos for a total of under $350... should I quit panicking (sp?) about having possibly gotten ripped off? (I about blew my budget out of the water for the next few years to buy them.)

BTW so far I'm enjoying both pianos, even though I had to significantly downgrade in the tone in the bass (I had previously had a 9x-year-old 57" upright that had new bass strings, and just about blew every single new upright (yes, including the 54" Steingraeber and 55" Heintzman that I played) away, and WOULD have if it had new hammers.) (It was a major upgrade in every other way though, even though I had been hoping (and unable) to find something in my budget that would have blown away what my old upright would have been like when new.)

So even if I did get a good deal... who's gonna be the next dealer to offer a deal good enough to blow the one I got off the planet?

88key, those sound INCREDIBLE. I'm amazed that the later Hamiltons were sold under the same name. I played an old Hamilton once and noticed how great it was and stayed at it for an hour even though it was in a shop. My craigslist deal was 1,850 for this Hardman (this is a new, better recording of it than I've posted earlier) (had brand new Abel hammers installed in 2006 before I bought it):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6Juyfk1r74&fmt=18

It needs new strings but I'm happy with it for the moment.

If only I had the space I would look at this one:

http://sacramento.craigslist.org/msg/994346654.html