Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum True Piano Values in this economy

Bringing the topic back on course again....

What are your opinions on this. A piano was worth $2,000 5 year ago. Should we still be appraising it at this same price now? Or, should we be appraising it lower because it is not selling? I realize, the market bears what it bears...

If the actual value of the piano hasn't really changed, for example, new piano pricing hasn't changed dropped has it? It doesn't cost them any less to produce them....should a used pianos value then, change?

It is my understanding that new piano pricing has dropped here Jerry. I am not aware of how much though....

What I do is try to observe the stores and what they do. If the pricing drop for new equipment is 20% down then perhaps I should adjust my appraisal figures.

Generally a rule for me is this. When used equipment is advertised for sale, if it doesn’t not sell in one month, then the price is too high. Reduce the price by X amount thereafter until the unit sells. The price it sells at is the fair market price. Not completely scientific, but you have to have a starting point I guess…

Now of course with pianos there are hot and cold times of the year for sales.... we all know this part....

www.silverwoodpianos.com

The value of a piano is what the buyer and seller think it's worth at time of sale. In my market, a piano worth 2k five years ago is likely worth 40% less today. My appraisals take that into account, and I explain the current market to the customer. My appraised value can rise, if the economy improves. $500 Craigs list pianos sell well here.

So, are any of you planning on dropping your tuning or servicing fee's as well then?

Well it all comes down to supply and demand. If the bottom drops out of my schedule at some point I might have to have a "special".

On the other hand with the prices of pianos dropping it will make it easier than ever for people to get one, which may mean more people may own and play them, and thus potentially have them serviced.

My sense is that the piano has gained in popularity the past several years. The number of books with pianos in them, and the studies about music and the brain may have both resulted and contributed to this. All the top teachers in my town have waiting lists and sometimes I'm not sure who to refer clients to when they ask about teachers.

I've already dropped my tuning fee back to what I had it at several months ago. (I had raised it a little, but that was before the crash, and last month I lowered it back down.)

88key,
how many pianos have you tuned - in total as well as for pay?

Total... do you mean how many individual pianos, or does multiple tunings on the same piano count? If B, then easily hundreds.
As for pay... let's just put it this way. Business is so slow as to not have my tuning fee income cover my annual PTG dues, and I'm not yet comfortable enough with my hands-on skill level to charge for other services like regulation, repair, etc. (And I have nowhere near the highest rates in my market. I think one of my main problems is I'm not sure how/where to cost-effectively advertise, and I'm not going to borrow money to do it - it comes out of my own pocket, which is pretty thin right now, and will be like 99% thinner once I've registered for the Cal State conference coming up next month.
On a brighter note... I do have a tuning scheduled for this coming Monday afternoon... on a smaller upright piano that hasn't been tuned in a few years according to the owner.

One of the busiest tuners in the Seattle/Tacoma area hired someone at min wage to go through the phone book and cold call people to inquire if they need piano servicing. I once had my kids do a door hanger flier with a cupon on it. My goal was to solicit every house within a one mile radius of mine. I did get a few jobs - enough to cover the expense of the fliers.

One of the things I started doing early on was have my own project piano to work on when I wasn't out tuning. Its a good way to practice those regulating and repair skills.

Also if you get good at rebushing keys you could probably get some work from other technicians.

Great idea going to the Cal State conference! I really think those things pay off and I attend them religiously.

A piano (or anything else) is never worth twice what it sells for. It's worth exactly what it sells for. Not a cent more or less.

If, as you say, a piano is not worth repairing, then I guess the buyer will soon find out that a cheap price often fetches a piece of crap.

In the days before Craig's List, you'd see pianos listed in the newspaper classified ads. The magic figure seemed to be $600. These were usually spinets that were crap when new, and became uber crap by the time they were sold for $600.

I don't know what stuff sells on Craig's List, but I suspect that it's much the same.

I'm not planning on it. So far so good. But, never say never...

It is an interesting question. Some people are talking about deflation. It's interesting to read about the Great Depression. There are alot of similarities to what has happened this time around. A period of deregulation and big tax cuts in the 20's was followed by a speculative real estate bubble. Sound familiar? Then the bubble burst in 1929. If you had bought stocks in 1929, prior to the stock market crash, you wouldn't have gotten back to even until 1954. I wonder what the price of pianos was like in that time? Does anybody know?

After the 1929 crash, the stock market was pretty unstable, and made big jumps up and down, which it has also been doing recently also. A recession in 1930 didn't become a depression until 1933. So, there was a deflationary period for several years after 1929. What happened was that people started paying off debts. They weren't spending money and buying things, but tried to strenghten their financial position. As that happened, each dollar became worth more, because so many people were doing it. So the value of that debt became more, even as the actual dollar figure shrunk. That's the danger.

I don't see that happening this time. At least not to the same extent. Partly, the dollar is no longer tied to gold. The government is going to be printing lots of money, which should fuel inflation.

Still, we will see how much debt the government will be able to sell. Many governments around the world are trying to sell bonds to stimulate their economies. The Germans just held a bond auction that they had to shut down because they weren't selling. web page
The article seems to think the US Treasury will be more successful. Let's hope so.

I haven't lowered my prices either. I did however, hold them steady for the past 2 years rather than to increase them this year as I normally might have.

I've noticed for many years now that the lower priced technicians in my area and probably in most areas, for the most part, are usually, much less knowledgeable about pianos as a whole. They can't tune well and they can't repair or regulate well.

Obviously, that doesn't account for every tuner but, as a whole, over all, that's what I've found.

Their knowledge of tuning and repairs is
lacking. Therefore, the demand for their services is also lacking.

A person with more knowledge in many service industries, gets more pay thus, the reason RPT's are often higher priced than non RPT's. No offense intended to anyone out there that is learning or is a non member. I'm just posting my discoveries on the subject.

Something else I thought of regarding pricing. Instead of lowering your rates, or having a sale like Ryan stated, why not offer a little more service for no charge, like a capstan raise, or something small, less than 15 minutes….. Maybe vacuum out the key bed or something.
A free 15 minute appraisal on what is wrong, or not wrong with the instrument, what may be coming up for repair. Maybe a free quotation for repair…. Small things like this…….

This way the customer sees a visible extra while it does not cost you too much…. Step up the pace a little bit on the tuning should give you the extra time at the end. Work smarter, not harder…..

www.silverwoodpianos.com

Suppose the number of pianos you tune is down by 25%. You panic and drop your rates by 10% A rate decrease may add some tunings, but not enough to cover the 25% decrease - in fact not even close. You will end up making 10% less money on 20% less tunings.

The best way to handle a slowdown is reduce your costs as much as possible, while providing the best service you can, and selling as much service as you can - in other words, make more gross income with each piano you tune, and more net income because you reduced your costs.

Excellent discussion. I'm holding the line on any rate increase for the time being, but dont plan to reduce my fees. Perhaps in some parts of the country deflation may be an economic reality, but I dont see it yet here in the Southeast, at least in my corner of the Southeast.

I think it is important that people not over re-act. Yes the economic news is not good. But I have seen little change in my weekly schedule since Christmas. I had a very busy fall, right up to the week of Christmas. I geared back up the first week in January and still going strong for a January.

I believe the big factor in people's spending habits are driven by employment. Those who feel secure in their job will continue to spend, though much more carefully.

Good point Ron that people should not over react. So often they do just that more out of fear, or immediate desperation/fear rather than thinking about the best ways to make it through.

Increase quality and knowledge instead.

Be customer oriented.

Be better than your competitor's.

In my mind and many of you here have the same mentality, NOBODY is going to better than ME! NOBODY!!! That's the attitude to take... Not just now but, always. However, we cannot simply take that attitude without something else to back it up with. If we don't also follow these thoughts through with qualified actions, good quality, ethics, morals, honesty etc., your better qualified competition will run you over like a steam truck. Steam truck? Those big rigs with rollers on them that flatten tar!!!

I haven't had to reduce my fees yet, but I haven't had the nerve to raise them, either.

I have always given extra service besides just a tuning at my regular 1 1/2 hour service calls. Some people really appreciate the effort. Lost motion, let off, pedal noise, backchecks, cleaning, touch up voicing, sanding the hammers--if you only do one of these at each regular service call, the pianos end up being stable and playing as they should.

When I get price shoppers, I point out that when they hire someone good, they get better value, and a much better playing and sounding piano than if they hire a violin teacher who moonlights as a piano tuner.

If you want to stay busy, make yourself needed. Make the pianos sound so good that your customers become addicted to that particular sound.

Jerry, obviously you have to charge what your particular market will bear. I did run a "special" over the holidays that was quite successful, where I offered my repeat customers 15% off my normal rate. I drummed up a lot of business with that and it was very timely for me, being the holidays and all.

I don't plan on raises my rates this year and may have to take them down a bit, due to the incredibly poor economy in Michigan (and Lansing in particular).

I always figure this way. If we give to many discounts, people will expect them like they do with piano sales and then will not want to pay full price. Our costs of traveling certainly and other expenses are not going to go down. Only up.

Therefore, I only give discounts for tuning 2 or more in one location or a discount for a piano teacher that refers me a lot.

I also will give one to someone that sets up a full day for me (I have to do nothing but show up) when tuning out of town. Otherwise, that's about the extent of my discounting.

I'm holding firm on my pricing.

Here's a very interesting article that I read.

"Knowledge of failure helps lead to success."

I think it pertains very well to the topic at hand. Fear etc. When you read it, think of how this pertains to yourself and to your own business and to your own feelings.


http://www.usatoday.com/money/compa...1-18-don-keough-advice-coke_N.htm?csp=34