Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Tuning a piano lower than standard pitch

I have bought a Stieff full-size upright that was made in 1920s or 30s. I am considering having it tuned a little lower than standard pitch, ie A435 instead of A440. I would like to know what people who knows more about pianos think about this. I have never owned a piano before, but played other people's off and on.

I have been playing music about 28 years, mostly guitar, bass, and infrequently, keyboards. One thing I came to realize over the years is that I tend to like the sound of music that is tuned a little lower than standard pitch. I have no problem with playing at standard pitch if there's a reason, but otherwise I like to tune my guitars a little lower.

I have found very little about the history of standard pitch, but one thing I did read was that standard pitch was fixed at A440 in 1939, and at A435 in 1859. (Please tell me if this is incorrect)

I would like to know if there's any compelling reason not to tune a piano lower than A440, and if anyone has done this before. I won't be using this piano with other musicians very much, it's in my home.

You are right about the dates, A-440 wasn't standard till about 1940. Many of the old uprights were designed to be tuned to A-435. I tune them flat all the time, especially when they are flat to begin with, and the strings are rusty, and the pins are loose. Tuning your piano to A-435 won't hurt anything.

There may be some difference in tone if the piano was designed to be at 440, but frankly, it will be negligible, especially on an old upright like this. Most requests that I get are to raise the pitch 5-10 cents (100 cents= 1 semitone) so it sounds brighter. It certainly wont hurt your piano, so if that's what you want, do it.

Help,
I just got my piano 2 weeks ago and had it tuned today.
It was in 438 so it was tuned there since it is an old upright built 1910-1930.

Am I understanding that most likely this piano was designed to be tuned 435?

Is there any harm in tuning to 438?
May I ad that there ia a small crack along the lower right half pins of the bass bridge.
Could this have been caused by exceeding the
perhaps 435 that this piano may have been designed for?

What should I do, is 438 ok or should it be taken done to 435 to avoid any more bridge damage?

It may or may not have been designed to 435, but you need not worry about 438. I've encountered pianos over the years that have been as high as 75 cents sharp (100 cents = 1 semitone) due to high humidity, and they were fine. (note: I don't recommend tuning it that high!) Many of my clients over the years ask for higher pitch, often as high as 20 cents (A=445). Your 438 pitch translates to about 8 cents flat of 440, about 12 cents sharp of 435. Thats not enough to hurt a healthy piano.............Sam

Thanks,
I was concerned because of my bridge having
a crack along half of the lower bridge pins.

Well, I'll wait til the next tuning and take the time to evaluate the piano before deciding whether to seal the bass bridge
crack. I ahve also been told that glueing the crack may make things worse, so I hesitiate.

I guess it couldn't be as easy as getting a syringe with glue and inserting it into the crack around the pins with a needle.
That may hold the pins better but will it really seal a crack or stop further cracking?

This is a very sensitive area and I don't want to do the wrong thing there.

Thanks, I do appreciate all your help.
Littlebit

You're right: it's not that easy, but it's almost that easy. You would have to tilt the piano onto its back. Strings on the affected bridge should be loosened, and then a syringe with epoxy will do it.Warming the bridge with a hair dryer helps to wick the glue in. Be very neat with the glue, you don't want hardened glue causing rattles. Obviously, tipping a piano is dangerous, be very careful if you try it....Sam

Not I, I am 95 lbs and my piano is abot 950 lbs, no it is not even thinkable for me to tip the piano on it's side. I can't even lift a corner. My only hope would be to get the super glue in a needle applicator and inject. If it dried fast enough it wouldn't run out. That was my only idea to fix it myself. I don't feel capable of taking off and putting back strings and I an certainly
can not get my half tonner on it's back.

Might injecting superglue cause more problems
or would it help seal the crack?

Thanks for the advice.

It appears to be my main problem with the piano lets see how she does and maybe if that's the most important repair I'll get the bridge fixed.

Thanks,
Littlebit

Littlebit- please dont try the superglue with the piano standing, I promise you that you will have a mess! Get a quote from your tech; it really isnt that expensive of a job....Sam

ok, I won't touch it but it took four men struggling to move this piano.
Would they try to get it on it's back in my living room? Well, good luck but when they have her on her back can they fix one of the rollers. The steel wheel came out of the attachment under the piano when they moved it
I guess I'm lucky that was the worst damage still it is upsetting. Luckily it was in the back and I have a piece of wood leveling her.

Oh, sometimes all of this too fast gets to me but I suppose every used piano has it's wrinkles to iron.

I think I need some air!

I personally have an older upright piano that I got at a church rummage sale. It was 200 cents, or a whole tone, flat when I got it. It's taken me a while to bring it up to 440, but it stays pretty well now and sounds good when tuned to standard pitch.

It is 12 years since this topic appeared. If you want to make a comment about your piano, start a new one.

Excuse me??? Who are you and why are you telling me what to do?

I welcome your visit are there holidays ? there will be more technicians/tuners from Nashville than from anywhere else in that forum (may be N.Y. ?)

Regards

BDB , with topics on very common subjects the less new ones the better, I think. That "tuning at low pitch" and 435/440 story could even be in one thread only.

BTW 435 was known in Europe as "French pitch" , but I think 440 was used soon (as even higher pitches, and now the "standdard is more 442- 443Hz)

That goes hand in hand with brillancy of tone, an there are not so much possibilities for strings length and diameters in the melodic to treble region, so that section of pianos, which is where the least compromises are used, could have been the same in 1930 than today +-

I tune most pianos to at last 438 Hz unless I "feel" while tuning the pitch was lower when the piano was tune regularly (rarely as most tuners may have tuned at 440 since decades)

if possible 440, I mean if confident in wire.

That have not so muchto do with tension, on the opposite, the stress on the pin hep the pin to settle firmer.

100 years old players I tune for instance, have an excellent tuning ability and hold in time pretty well. at 440 + English or German original wire no traces of stringing.

Sorry for the OT. The advice given was good so I do not ad much. repair that bass bridge if it is the main problem.
Have the piano tune by a real aural tuner, as they can feel more where the piano "is happy" than when following a display, which lower tuning perceptions somehow.

Of course you could "pre tense" the stings youself, so less visits will be necessary, but this can be the cause of trouble that the tuner will nee to correct. If you do so try not to break too much strings ...

Good luck

With respect to selection of an old thread vs starting a new one, we've seen conflicting reactions from some of the older members. New posters are darned if they do, darned if they don't. As long as the new post contains at least some relevance to the old thread topic, what difference does it make? Am I missing something? At any rate, welcome back to the tech forum, KJLien. I see from your post of a year ago here that you have (had) family in the piano tuning business?

If I'm asked to tune a piano that's very flat, here's my thinking. Since the piano has been neglected for years, I have no problem making the decision about what to do. My goal to get the piano sounding at its best, without breaking strings.

For me, the two deciding factors are how old the piano is and whether or not the strings are rusty.

Pre-1940s piano:
Rusty strings- I'll tune it to wherever A4 is, backing each pin downwards slightly first to break any rust seal, and either get the piano up to 435 or leave it at the A4 pitch until next time.
No rust on the strings- I'll pitch-raise it to 435 and leave it there.

Piano made after the 1940s:
Rusty strings- I'll do as above and then make a decision, either leaving it at 435 until next time, or getting it up to 440.
No rust on the strings- I'll crank it right to 440, pitch-raising it first, and tell the customer that the piano will need another tuning in a few months.

(on another note- I have no problem with someone reactivating an old thread. That's how I read this one today. If I had a criticism of someone's post, I'd probably PM them and keep it off-thread.)

GREG, you'd better clarify to the max what to expect, with the customer. Even by "saying" the piano "will need a new tuning" , that part is generally immediately forgotten by the customer.
From time to time he really plays and then experiment how bad your job was after calling another tuner (one year later or more sometime!) .
You'd be surprised how bad mouthing can be those customers, simply because they did not get the point.

Just tell what you do it s a repair, not a tuning.
Anyway that is, you may need also some wire cleaning, massaging, screws tightening.

Anyone need to work but it is better to situate things in their context, and not be ashamed to be paid for the precedent economies or lack of maintenance. It is also being a little too much proud of his own ability, to believe one can put a piano "in tune" in one visit.
Either you take a new date and fix a price immediately, or you take the risk.

Best wishes.

Some of this is a matter of taste. I discussed different pitches with Del, and in general it doesn't make any difference. I agree with the idea of putting the pitch where the piano is "happy". Prewar pianos seem to do a little better at lower pitch, especially is they have thin sound boards like my Chickering. If the board hasn't been replaced or shimmed, it relieves a bit of pressure from the sound board and helps keep the crown for a bit longer. I had the Chickering at 440, but decided that it sounded better at 435. The bass richened and the string of pearls in the treble wasn't so obvious. It didn't make any difference in the tenor area.

I dont know how it can make "no difference" the stress factor varies and small variations create more audible effects than the small percentage added .

Between 435 and 438 Hz the iH lowers "audibly" and brilliancy begins to show up as the tone is longer and more focused
Between 438 an 440 as well, in a very audible way, even noticed by non musicians.

I dont think I could tune by mistake at 440 a piano intended for 435Hz. But I do not like to leave that nasal component of tone that is present with under stressed wire.

As you say, "when the piano is happy" that can be noticed.

If you pass the original bends in the wire, you feel something is wrong, may be the bridge tilts too much, but the tone get as broken at some point. (just before the wire