Hi,
I am helping my pastor look for a Baby Grand piano and was wondering if anyone had any information about the Kranich and Bach piano company. We are looking at a used one that's approximately 40 years old. It is at a piano shop and they are asking $1,500 for it. Is this reasonable? I asked for the serial number but they said it was removed during some minor rebuilding. He sent me some pictures and it looks pretty nice. The shop also has two new Cable Pianos that are both around $5,000 is this a good deal?
I will appreciate any information available

Thanks in advance,
Josh B.

Kranich & Bach made odd pianos when they were independent, and was a lesser label when it was part of Aeolian American. Chances are the Chinese-made Cables would be better pianos, but if you are buying a used piano, you should get a technician to check it out for you, so you can learn for sure.

Are the Cables uprights or grands?

Chances are that Kranich is 80-90 years old. Glued in damperflanges, coil springs under shank and whip flanges and odd size parts. I wouldn't put that puppy in a church.

The Cables are Grands and The piano is for My pastor's home, not a church,

Thanks,
Josh B.

I would pass on the Kranich and Bach, for any setting. It is probably more than 40 years old -- the absence of a serial number is not encouraging, and serial numbers are not usually removed in "minor rebuilding." My old boss described K&B's as "each day, a new idea." They are difficult to service because a lot of the new design ideas weren't really well thought through.

I haven't seen Cable grands. The Chinese-made Cable uprights from about five years ago had some inconsistencies in quality.

Is there an independent technician in your area who can inspect possible purchases on your behalf?

DITTO on having a tech look at the Kranich and Bach for an evaluation.

I would recommend a Nordiska over the Cable if you are considering a Chinese made piano.

I would also say pass on the Kranich and Bach, and I would also be curious as to why a piano dealer couldn't find the serial #, there should be more than one place on the piano that its stamped, front of action, top of pedals etc..

Kranich and Bach is a well made piano. Servicing it will depend on 2 things

1) Need for service. This is why a tech should check it out.

2) A tech with enough experience so that the action is familiar, that he/she is not intimidated by it.

All this hinges in a techs inspection.

Please let me add my comment to avoid this piano, at any price. Like someone said, when K&B was independent they had a new idea each day, resulting in major headaches for techs and and for owners today.
I also agree this piano could be much older than 40 years old. Beware Beware Beware K&B pianos.

Just as a thought, in the most respectfull manner, I hear many "experienced ??" thoughts from people with no credentials listed here in the tech forum.

Care to post them?

Giving "experienced" technical perspective here, should be coming from industry professionals, hopefully with enough "time" in the business to be speaking from personal experience as a technician.


Kindest Regards to Everyone,
Larry

Many years ago I worked for a dealer who had a rebuilding shop and showroom. He had a fetish for Kranich and Bach grands. I rebuilt many of them. They had some nice cases and a pretty sound but as mentioned before they were odd ducks and the ancient age of this piano bodes trouble. 1500 hundred bucks should tell you something right there. If you are trying to do your pastor a favor, steer away from this old dog unless you are intending to put more money into it than it will ever be worth.

Sam, I have worked on many K+B's. I have a 6 footer in my shop right now. New sound board, pinblock and action. Yes, an odd duck to be sure. Absolutly wonderful woodwork, which is why the customer is restoring it. We are keeping the original case, it is in exellent condition. Just "extensive touch up" to enhance the look, preserve the antique look.

I'll post some pics of the pin block and action setup, yes a very off duck BUT, when it boils down to it, the work goes just as quickly.

Perhaps I'll put up a K+B page on my site, we can all look at the design.

I am making three points.
1) Recommending that a tech look at the piano and judge it as it sits. A bad block is a bad block, piano is no good. Then everyone here is absolutly correct, stay away from the piano.

2) I am trying to establish a culture of having a tech check it out to determine usefullness.

3) If a tech is experienced, K+B's are no problem. Any piano for that matter. So long as the piano is generally "healthy" I think that is an important point for the public to know.

Hello Everyone,
Thanks for all the info! I'll see if I can get my piano tech to look at it if we even consider buying it. It does seem kind of suspect that the guy can't tell me the serial number. I read article on K&B pianos at this website: http://www.bluebookofpianos.com/agesk.htm
It says the following:

KRANICH & BACH
One of the oldest, most noted and prominent firms in the piano industry, which, for nearly a century has enjoyed the highest reputation. This business was established in 1864 by Helmuth Kranich and Jacques Bach, both practical piano makers of tried experience. The firm soon became known as makers of distinction, and almost from the start Their instruments have been regarded as among the most reliable made. In 1873 Messrs Kraaich & Bach moved its factories and warerooms to East Twenty-third Street, New York. In 1890 the business was incorporated. This company prides itself upon the fact that it possesses what is considered one of the most complete and up-to-date piano manufacturing plants in the country, equipped with the finest machinery and most modern appliances. They belong to the very small group of famous makers whose pianos are among the highest class made in the world.

They are noted for durability, and for a tone which is distinguished for its purity. singing quality, brilliancy and carrying power. Obtained awards at the Mechanics' Fair, Boston; Philadelphia Centennial in 1876, and Chicago World's Fair in 1893. Represented all over the country by dealers of prominence, most of whom feature it as their leader. Among the famous products of these renowned makers is a magnificent concert grand which made its debut in the trade in the spring of 1916.

The four foot six inch Grandette was introduced to the trade and the public in 1934, and is among the smallest artistic grands on the market. This instrument is not an abbreviated grand in the sense that it represents a larger scale cut dawn, but is a grand built with an entirely new scale especially drawn for this instrument, which embodies all the sterling features of Kranich & Bach construction. and differs only in dimensions from the larger grands of the same make. The close of 1935 saw the tests and experimental work on a small upright, incorporating the Violyn piano plate (another notable patent of this house), satisfactorily completed. This commendable addition to an established and complete line of quality pianos is encased in a newly designed model of the vertical type, and trade marked "Grandette" Console. The scale, layout, materials and craftsmanship used in the manufacture of this new "Grandette" Console are identical with those employed only in Kranich & Bach pianos, resulting in a characteristic Kranich & Bach piano. During the year 1937 they manufactured and put on the market a still smaller size-3 ft. 3 in. Console, which also has an original Kranich & Bach scale, developed in their own factory. It was made in several styles and considered one of the most beautiful Console cases being shown. The house perhaps more than ever before in its history, convincingly displayed all of the determination to be fully alert and mindful of modern business methods and requirements yet conservative in its adherence to its traditions and ideals laid down by the founders.

Among the special improvements claimed for the Kranich & Bach piano are the Violin plate (a full metal plate with slanting pin block); the patented spiral spring washer; folding music rack and fall board in the uprights; and the Isotonic pedal which eliminates the shifting action in the grand. The Kranich & Bach upright and grand pianos have been before the public for more than a half century and during that time have held the same position they now occupy. The Kranich & Bach player-piano containing a player action manufactured completely in the Kranich & Bach factory is in every way as admirable as the piano of the same makers. A popular Kranich & Bach instrument is the "Grandette," a standard grand piano only 4' 9" long.

Is this web-site full of bologna?
Thanks again for the info!
Josh B.

Assuming the Cable's are grands it's a good price. I see many new Cable pianos and they are a good value for the money. And they sport my favorite ultra-flex tuning pins The Kranich may cost more than $5000 to fix up properly. A $1500 grand is likely to need expensive work.

That description looks like it was lifted directly from the manufacturer's brochure. K&B did have spiral washers; does anyone know how the "isotonic" pedal worked?

--Cy--

I would imagine the Isotonic pedal lifted the hammers closer to the strings - thus decreasing the blow distance and softening the hammer blow. Just a guess though.

Here is another Kranich & Bach thread Larry Buck started in the Piano Forum. He posted a pic of the old pinblock from a K&B baby grand he is currently rebuilding.

JP

Joshua,

Any news on your search?
Have you had a tech look at the Kranich and Bach?

I Have not had a tech look at it yet. I going to show the piano salesman a copy of this forum and ask him if he would consider lowering the price. I am currently looking at a Cable Nelson player baby grand with 100 rolls. It is going to be auctioned off next Suday, I e-mailed the guy in charge of the auction Yesterday and asked him for pictures and the serial number of the piano. I have not recieved a reply yet. Are Old Cable Nelsons normally good Pianos?
Thanks,
Josh B.

I think it is good "judgement" to have the piano examined. Pianos are only as good as they "actually are". If it is your expectation that there be no work other than the usual and customary tuning and service then only a thorough examinaton will determine that. It would be the same advice if you were looking at a Steinway.

Was the Cable Nelson good when it was made? It was considered an entry level piano at the time. Materials by today's standards are relativly good. Average for that day.