I'm seriously considering to buy a new piano instead of a rebuilt one.

I would like to have your feedback on the following grands :
- Bechstein A190
- August Forster 190
- Sauter Delta 185
- Yamaha S4
- Pleyel 190
- Estonia 190

Why theses ones ? Because i've been living in France and the prices are quite similar (+/- 10%) for theses pianos. (around 30 K€).

I prefer a singing and distinctive tone for the medium and treble, and a rather deep, dark and powerfull bass.

I do prefer a light and very sensitve touch.

It is really important to me to have a prior opinion before testing, because i have to travel a lot for each brand.

I am considering that the quality and durabiliy of thoses pianos are ok ?!
Th only one i've had the chace to play was a Sauter Delta that i like a lot for its nice touch and powerfull bass. But it was quite difficult to make it sing in the treble and medium (but the sound is so delicate !)

Thank you so much for you answers

Fredof,

Descriptions of tone are not standardized, so it will be difficult for anyone to help you choose a singing treble and a dark bass. How you describe the Sauter may help others a little.

You've only named great pianos! If you can get the Bechstein for the same price as the others, it is definately worth looking at, and since you're buying an instrument that will last you many many years, it's probably worth some travelling. I got lucky because I got to hear Steinway, M&H, Yamaha, Petrof, Bose, CW, Estonia, Schimmel, going to only two stores, both less than an hour away. Still, I almost flew a couple of hours to add Grotrian and Forster to that list.

Good luck, and PLEASE let us know what you think of the others as you try them!

Todd

The Sauter Delta is an exceptional instrument for its size - which is why I chose one in the first place. Mine certainly doesn't have any trouble singing in the treble - in fact its bright bell-like treble is its most distinctive feature, and I've had to ask my technician to bring it down a little (not by voicing, but by tuning alone). Here is a recording of my Delta, before and after the second tuning. Do note that the tonal changes you observed were achieved by tuning alone with no voicing. The Delta is a very versatile instrument and can take on quite different characters in the hands of a capable technician.

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/topic/1/15686.html

Here are some recordings done after the first tuning.
http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/29/228.html

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/topic/29/254.html

On the other hand, the other Delta which I tried out at the factory in Spaichingen quite the opposite of my piano, and was like what you described - powerful bass, rich dark tone, but a little less bright in the treble. It only goes to show how different individual pianos, even of the same model can sound. So you might want to ask your dealer if he will be bringing in another sample of a Delta.

Alternatively, I understand it is also possible to request for a custom built from scratch, a Delta to your tonal and touch preferences. That is what I intend to do should I decide to upgrade to a 7 foot Omega. If you liked the bass of the Delta that you tried, but want a more singing treble, you can communicate that to your dealer, and he may relay that request to the factory. Customisation is quite popular in Singapore, despite the obvious risks involved. Waiting time is probably 6 months or so, but it probably gives you the best chance of achieving as close to your ideal sound as possible. I would also suggest that you see if other makes offer this option.

Of the other pianos you listed, I have only played the Yamaha S4 and the Bechstein A190. The biggest strength of the S4 is its action, which I personally found very well balanced. While its basic tone was good, I just did not think that it has the delicacy, clarity, range of colours and sheer depth in the bass of the Delta. As for the Bechstein, its action was far the lightest of any piano I've played, but I found the tone too bright for my tastes. From what I've heard, the C. Bechstein 192 would be a massive improvement, though at a much higher price point as well.

I would be curious to try the August Forster, Pleyel and Estonia, having heard rave reviews about them. Perhaps you could also try the Grotrian 192, which has received good reviews in these forums.

And don´t forget Blüthner model 6. Heavenly.

And then there is the Steingraeber. Pure joy.

fredof :

I wasn't aware that you could find an Estonia in France; I thought they almost all go to the North American market. Is there a dealer in Toulose - or elsewhere in France - who has one or more in stock?

I prefer a singing and distinctive tone for the medium and treble, and a rather deep, dark and powerfull bass.

I don't think that any of us Estonia owners would characterize the tone of the bass as deep, dark and powerful. On the other hand, it is warm and more than adequate, albeit not powerful. I like the Estonia's overall sustain, the warm tenor register, the clear upper register and the fine balance of registers from bottom to top. It might not be the ideal piano for Rachmaninoff, for example, but I find it "almost ideal" for everything from Bach to Debussy, including Rachmaninoff.

Regards,

I'm an Estonia owner, but I also think the "A" in Bechstein A190 stands for "Awesome."

I also didn't know that Estonia was somewhere available in France:

As everybody knows, a fabulously 'singing' piano...

Other outstanding candidates in that department would/could include Bluethner, Grotrian and August Foerster.

IMHO.

Happy hunting!

Norbert

Of models you list, I have played examples of the Bechstein, Yamaha and Pleyel.

Of those three, I would say the Pleyel best fitted your desire for a 'singing and distinctive tone'. Unfortunately, it was also the one with the heaviest touch.

The Academy Bechstein had the lightest touch, but the treble was painfully bright, getting up towards fingernails-on-blackboard territory.

The Yamaha I tried had a fairly light and very even touch, but completely dead tone. (If you are looking at Yamaha S, how about considering Shigeru Kawai?)

Best wishes,
Matthew

Based on these parameters, I vote August Förster 190.

AF 190 has got everything you asked for except "powerful" bass -- but that's not a problem, because the others on your list don't have "powerful basses" either when compared to AF 190, and where AF 190 lacks in power, it makes up for it with clarity and definition. If you play lots of fast passages in the bass, the AF 190 is hard to beat within that list, and it's got the lightest touch of them all.

Unless you room has very tall ceiling (10 ft+) and/or is very big (e.g., 25 ft+ of open space in the direction where the piano project), I don't think "lack of bass power" will be an issue for any of the pianos you listed assuming standard classical repertoire.

Good luck.

fredof,

As you live in Toulouse, I'm curious to know if you have tried any Chavanne pianos? They are built in Toulouse, so would be a logical choice for you.

Many people have heard of them, but we are still waiting to hear from anyone who has played one.

Other than that, I also recommend that you try a Grotrian (my personal choice).

Especially since it is in the same price range as the Sauter.

Grotrians *do* cost more for dealers than Sauters.

If you can get one for same or silimiar price....



However, especially in Europe - I doubt it.....



Norbert

Thank you for the many answers!

Wzkit, the Delta is a splendid instrument. I think it's a great deal. I've heard your recordings since the beginning (I’m a fan !) Your Sauter released its power after the second tuning and the reverie of Debussy you have recorded is lovely.

BruceD and Norber, it is possible to find Estonia in Paris, and to me, this piano is a great competitor.

Bluthner and Grotrian are more expensive, but if I can play them I’ll do.

Matthew, I didn't tried the Pleyel Yet, but if it sounds like the old Pleyel C (6'8) it should sound clear, but not metallic, and its singing so well -> this piano really talks to you ! I love that kind of sound. But such an old piano is not the best to practice regularly, and the keyboard is not perfect.

I've played a Bechstein upright (Millenium 116) yesterday, and its tone was what L like (and the touch is so accurate). The Bechstein Academy seems to be more clear than that (perhaps too much), as described in many posts.

Axtremus, i have to consider seriously August Forster (tier 1 piano according to Larry, but the Sauter is for me in the same category). I've only listened to Cjquinn recording on its 190, and it has a rich sound and the bass sounds great.

whippen boy, I’ve played the new Chavanne 187, and nothing special to say about it. The sound is confused, but the tone is not unpleasant. The price is 16,8 K€ and i think it is a good value, but finally not my kind.

My future piano will be in a large mezzanine (50m²) opened in a large living room (same size). The open space in the direction where the piano project is about 30 ft and the ceiling is tall (20 ft from the ground of the living room up to the ceiling of the mezzanine).
Piano size is not a problem, but price is one. If I want a top quality piano and not exceed 30 K€ (eq 40 K$), the pianos are the listed above (I also forgot to mention Shingeru).
I am not interested in Yamaha Conservatory series and Kawai RX, not my cup of tea. (in that price range I could have bought C6 or RX6).

An other important point to mention is that the movers will need an elevator to handle the piano to the mezzanine (the stairs are not adapted…), pricey and difficult, so the piano should be the one Im going to live with for the rest of my life (perhaps to much ambitious ).

For theses reasons, I have to go now with the pianos here above or wait a while to have a +7 ft.

An other competitor could be the new Petrof Pasat B (the tone of the Petrof III sounded good to me, but the keyboard was not perfect). The August Forster 215 is also not far in terms of price compared to an AF190…

I don’t know how to post pictures in PWF, but I can show you the place where the piano will fit to have an opinion.

Thank you for your advices !

In that case, I retract my vote for AF-190.

Grotrian 190 would be a more suitable choice if you want to stick to 190 cm size, and now we're in a slightly higher price range. If you're willing to give Yamaha a second look, give the C7 another shot. If you want to include Shigeru, then shoot for SK-5 (197cm) or larger. Of these three, Grotrian should have the lightest touch and Shigeru the heaviest touch.

With a room of that size, I would suggest considering pianos in the 7ft rather than 6ft range, if you are willing to increase your budget by about 20% more or so. I'm not sure what their respective prices are like in France, but assuming cost is not a concern, your choices could be down to:
1. AF 215
2. Sauter Omega 220
3. Grotrian 225 or 208
4. Yamaha S6
5. Shigeru SK-5 or SK-6
6. Steingraeber 205

I believe these are all superb pianos and you probably can't go wrong with anyone of them. Of this list I have played only the last four, with the Yamaha S6 being the most comfortable for my tastes - the mellowest tone (but not necessarily the most singing), and the most precise action - very easy to reproduce a pianissimo. Strangely, I found the new batch of Shigeru Kawais in my local market much brighter and louder than the first Shigerus I encountered, almost impossible to play a true pianissimo. As for the Steingraeber, I was impressed by its rich, full tone the first time I played it, but a second try revealed a much harder, metallic tone. And for the price of a Steingraeber 205, I could custom build a Sauter 220.

I've only played one Petrof III, which I found too bright for my tastes (but not as bright as the Bechstein). Also I felt the tone tended to get muddy easily when the pedal was depressed, compared to the cleaner sound of the Yamaha and German makes.

If you can trace down a good Ibach F-215, it would be also well worth a look. Glorious singing treble - easily the best of any piano I have played, though the bass seemed a little lacking in depth considering its size. This is a recording of a 10+ year old F-215. I'm not sure if current production Ibachs sound like this though:

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/topic/29/192.html

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/29/142.html
http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/29/143.html

I've never played a Grotrian and iI don't know how it sounds compared to a Sauter Delta for example ?

It could be interesting for new buyers in this forum to give personal evaluation on each of these pianos :
- Overall tone
- Bass
- Medium
- Treble
- Touch
- A recording ?

Wzkit, thank you for all this information. I've already heard your performance with the Ibach 215, in particular the Consolation of Bortkiewicz that is awesome. After that I decided to play this consolation.

Steingraeber and grotrain 208 and + are too expensive.
I have to get information on the Sauter Omega.
In fact Wzkit, my local dealer has met Ulrich in Toulouse (there is a photo of him in this shop), and he proposes me if I want a Sauter to go and see Ulrich and many of grands to compare and chose the one. It should be a great experience. In fact i've already been in germany (Berlin an Bavaria) and it is a lovely place.
But I shoul be sure to buy a Sauter before going there. And what about the price ? is it possible in that case to save few $$ (to negociate a reasonnable price)?

Fredof,
Thank you for your kind comments. That Bortkiewicz Consolation is a personal favourite of mine...very touching. After I first heard it in Montreal in 1998, it took me five years to hunt down the score - it had been out of print since the war, apparently.

I have never played a new Sauter Omega, though I have heard one in concert. The specimen I heard had a brilliant treble that could outproject even a Steinway D. A very powerful piano, but perhaps a little too bright for my taste when played loud, but certainly no problem singing a treble melody. From my experience with Sauters, the design is versatile enough to give a multitude of tonal colours in the hands of a skilled technician. For home use, I would prefer a slightly warmer, tonal profile, which is why if I do decide to upgrade to an Omega, I will have it custom built from scratch, to have a lighter touch, singing but warm tonal profile, whilst still retaining the sustain and tonal richness of the basic Omega design.

I would strongly recommend a visit to the Sauter factory in Spaichingen if you do decide on a Sauter, be it an Omega or a Delta. At least, chances are that you will have more choices - make sure that there are at least 2 of the same model in the factory, or if possible 3. Perhaps you might be able to find one that suits your tastes. If not, the option to custom build your Sauter from ground up (right to the level of wood selection for the soundboard, and the type of hammers/ action that you want) is something that you should seriously - this will allow you to come closest to your ideal sound as can be. be sure to communicate with the chief technician Kaufmann your preferences! And yes, Ulrich is a great guy, easy to communicate with, extremely knowledgable about the piano industry (without bad-mouthing other makes), and an excellent host to boot.

I'm not sure about whether you can save $$$ by negotiating with the factory directly. In my case, price was negotiated with my dealer. I don't think there's any harm giving it a try though.

Many times true quality reveales itself over time. Time and again I have been infatuated with certain things just to find myself indifferent to them in the long run. Then there are things that keep their attraction over time. Lastly there are things that grow on you over time.

The best would be to spend months with a piano before buying it.

pianistical, yes testing at home few month should be the best, it can be discussed with the dealer if we are hesitating between two particular pianos.

Your experience with Suter was great Wzkit. Each time you put your hands ont the Delta keyboard, you can understand and remember your trip to the factory where the piano was born. So nice.

For me, before doing that I have to travel to test all the pianos and make a final decision.

Fredof,
Pianistical is so correct. Sometimes, what appeals at first, doesn't seem so appealing after awhile. Or when subsequent visits to the dealer reveals that the piano has not aged well. During my search quite a few pianos that did not stand up well to the aging test upon the second or third visit.

For more than 7 months, I was at the Sauter dealer at least once a week, often twice, playing the Alpha baby grand for often 2 hours or so at a stretch. All this time, there was never any pressure from my dealer/technician, even though he knew even the Alpha was twice my initial budget. It was then that I could witness how the sound matured, and even though the piano did become brighter and louder with time, it retained the richness and sustain, and some voicing would make the tone ideal again. This is unlike my experience with some cheaper pianos, where the sound not only became brighter, but the sustain and richness just died off after a few years, so that even voicing would not be able to rectify the problem. This is a serious problem that does not reveal itself initially. And that's where people are willing to pay a premium for an established brand name with a good track record of durability.

From my experience, the singing quality of Sauter's treble really comes in only after some playing in. Naturally, after playing the Alpha for 7 months at a stretch, the Sauter tone, which I was not quite used to at the beginning, grew on me, and witnessing how the tone matured that gave me the confidence to place an order for the Delta, sight unseen. Of course, the Delta was a completely different piano from the Alpha, with a much sweeter, delicate tone, yet more power at the same time. Again, that took some getting used to initially, but as the tone evolves, and as I get my technician to tweak it bit by bit to perfection, the sound grows on me.

So take your time to choose - perhaps not to the extreme lengths which I took it, but I think at least 3 visits a month apart or so, would be sufficient to confirm your impresisons. After all, its your money on the line. Communicate to the dealer that you are a serious buyer. If the dealer is a hard sell and pressures you to make a quick decision, drop him. Apart from the quality of the piano, I would also place dealer integrity and service on the top of the list of factors that go into my final decision. Remember, it is not just the piano that you are buying, but you are also buying a relationship of trust and service quality from your dealer.

Having a piano at home on trial is most sensible although some piano dealers may be reluctant to pay the costs of moving several pianos back and forth.
The piano that we choose in the showroom will most likely sound a little different in its new home. A showroom that works well acoustically for pianos may even make defects in the sound less obvious. Low ceilings, furnishings and carpets at home can deaden the resonance of an instrument's tone.

When I bought a new piano there was a problem with a note on the bass/tenor break and this did not become apparent to me until the piano was at home. Eventually I had to have the two strings replaced.

Of course, pianos can be voiced to best suit their home situation, but a top tier, quality instrument will be a joy to play wherever.

Regards,
Robert.

Wzkit

Another insightful post.

Those of us impatient to have the sound of our piano 'NOW' need to reread your post several times over. And to have the patience to regulate / voice your piano just as you wish it to be are words of wisdom. I'll try hard to remember this.

What a great opportunity / experience you had to visit the dealer weekly to try out a piano and then to pick your piano out from the factory.

Lesson learned.

LL

I can understand this "reluctance;" "refusal" would be a better word to use in this context.

If four or five potential customers at one time requested this in-home trial service from a dealer, does anyone honestly think that any dealer has enough stock to have customers "test drive" a number of his better pianos in homes for several weeks at a time. Even if the customer were willing to pay for moving costs - some of whom would refuse to do so - the labour involved in examining, perhaps re-regulating and certainly re-tuning of the pianos involved after the return to the showroom would be prohibitive. The pianos returned could hardly be considered "new" pianos any more. Sounds like a quick way to bankruptcy to me.

Regards,

fredof,

Have you given up on Grotrian so soon? It seems you think it might be too expensive, yet you should be able to negotiate a lower price.

You asked for recordings...

Grotrian 277
Grotrian 225

Pianoworld member Alamodemer used to have some videos of her daughter playing a 192, but since they moved the website no longer has the files. Maybe someone with a 192 can record something?

Of course, recordings don't tell the whole story...

You also asked for descriptions of touch and tone - as I'm sure you know, this is all such subjective information. If you query the Pianoworld archives you might find some helpful information about each brand that interests you.

Good luck, and take your time.

BruceD,
I agree with you that it would be commercially untenable for a dealer to allow potential customers to "test drive" a piano. If it is a customer who is committed to making purchase and has paid a deposit or the full price of the piano then I believe that the dealer should be reasonable in the case of a genuine cause for dissatisfaction on the part of the purchaser.
The risks and costs involved in moving pianos certainly increase costs to the dealer.
Ultimately, it comes down to trust between the dealer and the customer.
Brand new pianos can be unstable in tuning and it can take several years for a new piano to reach its optimum sound. These are issues of which both the dealer and the customer should be fully aware.

Kind regards,
Robert.

whippen boy,

Those are nice recordings. There is something intimate, delicate and endearing about the Grotrian tone. Am I right? The bass seems powerful too.

Don't PD and son have a 192? I think Piano Son just posted a recording of the 3rd Pathetique movement over in the Pianist Corner .


Sophia

We do. On the other hand, a camcorder is not the world's best sound system for recording precise tonal differences between pianos.

Actually, I've got a video of a simpler MacDowell piece that is a better recording of the sound of the piano. I put the camera practically on top of the piano. Perhaps I'll post that. I just don't want to bombard people with too many home recordings.

I agree with those who suggest the Grotrian as a good option along side the Sauter. It has a rich bass and a full sustain. The sound isn't as complex as a Steinway. It's purer. Also the treble is really powerful ...not tinkly. It can soar above a bass line. The action is light, but responsive.

I have had wonderful positive playing and servicing experiences with Estonia. I think it is exceptional value.
I am not a fan of Pleyel.