Hi everyone,

I wasn't sure where to post this question, hopefully someone with piano repair experience can help out.

I have a 1980 7 foot semi concert grand piano. Overall it has been kept in great condition and tuned more than regularly.

So, for my general playing uses it has been great.

Well, here's where the problem comes, I have a small studio and have recently decided to record it due to someone wanting a REAL piano to record. I figured, the piano sounds great, no problem.

Well, now I have found all kinds of problems getting an acceptable recording. The soft pedal CREAKS when it is pressed first of all. So, OK, I can avoid using the soft pedal for most songs.

But the main problem is the sustain pedal. First of all, the pedal itself isn't overly loud, but it's loud enough to notice it. However, the dampers inside the piano are quite noticable when the sustain is pressed. They make a WOOSH sound when they come off the keys. It's quite faint, but it comes through on recordings. Also, the hammers themselves are noticable on soft passages.

Don't get me wrong, the piano sounded just fine for everyone who has ever heard it, but these little details are making for a non pro sounding recording. Even at a distance the sustain pedal is a little noticable.

So, my question is: Are all pianos like this, or does this type of situation come about through time (the piano is 27 years old, although everyone who sees it-piano tuners alike- think it is a brand new piano from the looks alone). Is this kind of noise something that can be fixed through maintanence of some kind??

help me out here....bottom line is I think I need a piano that is ridiculously quiet.

It is a combination of fixing noises that can be fixed, player techniqe and having a software program that can edit out the noise that cannot be fixed.
The damper noise you describe may be difficult to deal with. Alternatives include new damper felt with felt grain in different direction and or a bit harder. Now you get more of a thump when sustain pedal is released. Player technique can impact damper noise - care with using pedal can reduce the pedal thump, pedaling when not playing will make the noise you describe more audiable.
Just the non musical noise of hammer string contact is always there, masked by the music usually - etc. Pianos make noise. Critical listening can be hazardous to your appreciation of the insturment and can also help improve a players technique. You need to get a good technician and develop a relationship so that these issues can be addressed.

Great info. I guess what I'm really wondering is, do you guys notice that, for example, a brand new 2007 steinway grand, is much quieter than a 1980 yamaha? I'm trying to decide if it's something I should be working around that every piano has, or if my piano is just louder than others. Hmm, I wonder if I posted up a clip of the music, if that would help?

It has not been mastered yet, so you'll have to turn it up QUITE a bit louder to hear it, but here we go

http://www.users.qwest.net/~fisherdennis/

Thanks for listening! There are 2 examples

Your microphones are placed too close to the source of the noise.

Ah, yes, excellent point...however, when the mics are backed up farther away, then I get the KLUNK from the pedal itself, rather than the dampers.

So it's like a comprimise, either I get the WOOSH from the damper inside the piano (those clips are close miced at a distance of 6" of the treble and bass strings) or I back off the mics anywhere else in the room and still get the pedal itself making noise.

Plus I've been told in recording forums that usually for rock piano they mic 1" off the piano hammers! That would make it sound even more ridiculously noisey on my piano! I am back off the dampers as far as I can go on the treble mic, and the sound is equally as loud on the bass mic.

Thanks for the replies so far! Any other comments please!

This sounds like a combination of things.
1. Microphone positioning.
2. The mic levels are too hot.
3. The floor needs to be dampened.

Experiment with positioning but I would turn your mic recording levels down in any case. Place some sort of rubber mat or carpet under the pedals and under the piano itself. Without knowing your gear and the realities of the room it is virtually impossible for anyone to give you a definitive answer.

Most rock bands position microphones in non-optimum spots because they are trying to prevent bleed through from the guitar amps and drum kit. If the piano is being recorded by itself no respectable engineer will mic that close. Read this article from DPA.
http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/grandpianomicing.pdf

This is not the one true way but will give you some guidelines.

This is an excerpt from a larger article that might help:

“I don't really like the sound you get putting mics inside a piano,” he continues. “A piano, particularly something like a Steinway with the lid up, was really designed to project in a place like Carnegie Hall. And if you have something designed to make a big noise in a big space, going in close usually doesn't sound quite right to me. The problem with close-miking is where are you going to put the [mics] without highlighting certain parts of the piano? You also tend to get a little more of the mechanics: the action noise, the popping up and down; not everyone wants to hear that, and it also makes the piano a much more percussive instrument. I like my sound to have some space from the room in it, and, of course, in classical music, we're often recording in concert halls or very large studios.”

The whole article on recording pianos is here:
http://mixonline.com/recording/applications/audio_recording_piano/

Moving mics away to avoid unwanted noise is not always the answer.
If you are after a certain sound from close micing the piano, noise issues related to it must be addressed. It can be quite a bit of work for technician, artist and recording engr.

Here are a few helpful articles as well.

Gerhart Bohr "Microphones"
http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/Bore-Microphones.pdf

Joe Hannigan on recording classical music-a little theory and a little philosophy.
http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/RecordingClassicalMusic.pdf

Allen Strange told me "If you got rid of those noises, it wouldn't be a piano any more." Its like waiting to hear the jacks return at the end of a harpsichord piece, after the sound has decayed into nothingness, the player gracefully releases the keys in a reverse arppeggiation that is as gratifying as the onset of the final chord.

#1: Do the noises show up in the mix.

I stole this from my own recent post to pianotech:
Here is my personal favorite micing technique. I picked it up watching PBS's "Sessions at West
54th" and saw it once on Saturday Night Live:
Remove piano lid, place directional mics in an 60 degree X/Y pattern
from 5 feet above the strings, right above the center of the soundboard.
That was really great for dry studio recordings, eliminating lid reflection.

For live sound, I often use an omni 8" above the second octave bass, and
a large diaphragm directional 6" above the last 2 octaves of treble
strings, major lobe toward the center. I hi-pass @ ~200Hz the omni,
and low-pass the bigger mic in the treble @ ~8k. This mixes down well
to front-of-house mono.

Ive never been satisfied with "soundhole" micing, although I had a few
good results micing the board from underneath. I have had a few
requests for soundboard contact & PZM micing, but haven't bought any yet.

I've found the disklavier system to be very useful recording pianists
who make really noise page turns!

And for what its worth, be sure to to hi-pass your track (the low A fundamental is 55Hz), that will mask some of the thuds and thunks. And have that puppy tuned! Again! Woohooooo!

Pianos are noisy! An un-noisy piano sounds ... well, un-natural. The perepheral noise can be minimized but if you make it all go away, it starts to sound like the electronic samplers that you are trying to replace.

In doing home recording, I've learned to allow judicious amounts of ambient noise. It really helps make the recordings sound natural.

If you want ambient or other piano noise on your recordings it is a choice, not the default.
A well designed, built, regulated, tuned, voiced, played and recorded piano with no noise hardly sounds electronic or un-natural.
Try this Ravel CD for an example. It is the cleanest recording I have ever heard.
http://cdbaby.com/found?artist=Sally+Christian&soundlike=&album=&style=

One artist I know is planning to purchase a Disklavier MK4 for recording purposes. He wants to do all of his work in the digital domain and then sound engineer his own acoustical playback.

In another setting they did this with a MK4 Pro on some older Glenn Gould recordings for Sony.

www.zenph.com This is the company that has pioneered the software for taking old solo piano recordings and making a hi-res midi file to be played back on a Disklavier Pro. May 29 is the release date for the first ever re-recording of Glenn Gould's 1955 Bach Goldberg Variations, using this process, and then played back on a 9ft Yamaha Concert Grand. In the future, there will also be a Steinway D utilized with this process...stay tuned!

Heres an article regarding the Gould:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/12/arts/music/12conn.html?_r=1&pagewanted=1&ei=507&oref=slogin