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#640147 - 02/01/09 08:39 PM TuneLab Multi-Partial Tuning
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1067
Loc: PA
Hi,

I've been tuning pianos since 1979. I was originally taught to tune by ear, but later went to using both my ear and the Verituner since it was released. I'm considering buying an additional ETD as a backup, or maybe an alternative for some instruments and jobs. I've seen a lot of discussion about TuneLab on this forum, so I thought I'd try posting here.

Since this is a technical forum, I think it might be best to ask questions in separate threads rather than in one rambling thread that goes all over the place. This will make searching on these topics easier.

My first question is about multi-partial tuning.
According to the TuneLab-World web-site:

 Quote:

 Quote:

You only need to play a note and TuneLab finds all the partials for that note and calculates the inharmonicity constant for that note.
http://www.tunelab-world.com/
Just to be clear, does TuneLab now use multiple partials for each sampled note to calculate its tuning? It's no longer "either/or"?

Thanks,
-Joe
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#640148 - 02/01/09 11:07 PM Re: TuneLab Multi-Partial Tuning
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1618
Loc: Chicagoland
I believe Tunelab has always measured multiple partials of each sampled note. From there a single inharmonicity constant (multiplier) is determined and applied to calculate the full tuning. This all occurs separate from the tuning - hopefully before!

Ron Koval
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


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#640149 - 02/02/09 09:43 AM Re: TuneLab Multi-Partial Tuning
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1067
Loc: PA
I was a little confused about this because the documentation that I have indicates that the user selects the type of octave he/she uses. I didn't see the option for multiple octave types with weightings like the VT.

I think I understand why TuneLab is doing it this way. But, I don't want to go into too much detail on the odd chance that I might unwittingly expose a patented algorithm.

Maybe the documentation is lagging slightly behind development (like most software \:\) )?


Thank you !
-Joe
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#640150 - 02/02/09 09:51 AM Re: TuneLab Multi-Partial Tuning
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1067
Loc: PA
Oops! I reread your post more carefully.

So, only one constant is use throughout. And it's alsway been so. It's different than I thought.

On the other hand, I may have thought of a new algorithm \:\)

Thanks,
-Joe
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#640151 - 02/02/09 10:16 AM Re: TuneLab Multi-Partial Tuning
Bob Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 3834
Not only does it measure each partial, but you have the option to make multiple measurements on each note, which can be combined for a better overall measurement. Experience tells me whether to accept a particular measurement, re-measure it, or average it out with more measurements. Partial measurements can change with the force the key is played, so I like to use 3 measurements per note, each at different volume levels.
_________________________
www.PianoTunerOrlando.com






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#640152 - 02/02/09 08:43 PM Re: TuneLab Multi-Partial Tuning
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1067
Loc: PA
I see (I think). It averages the samples per note, and then averages those averages to give one single inharmonicity constant, and then assumes that the entire piano is using the same constant in all sections (unless using split-scale mode). It then derives a multiplier from the constant and applies that mutiplier to all notes (except one). Then the user can manually tweak.

Thank you \:\)
-Joe
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#640153 - 02/10/09 01:41 PM Re: TuneLab Multi-Partial Tuning
Les Koltvedt Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/05
Posts: 3195
Loc: Canton, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by Bob:
Experience tells me whether to accept a particular measurement, re-measure it, or average it out with more measurements. Partial measurements can change with the force the key is played, so I like to use 3 measurements per note, each at different volume levels. [/b]
Bob, I like your technique of sampling 3 times, but can you explain what you look for when the results are displayed for a note? and your reasoning for a re-measure.

I have just recently started to practice the "ART" of tuning and would like to learn the aural skills. Currently I have been using Tunelab to confirm my attempts and have been using PW Tech forum as a learning platform, in addition to reading Reblitz, J.Cree Fisher and purusing forum members web sites for links and info...
_________________________
Les Koltvedt
LK Piano
Servicing the S. Eastern Michigan Area
PTG Associate

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#640154 - 02/10/09 01:58 PM Re: TuneLab Multi-Partial Tuning
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4908
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Monster M&H:

Why do you want to tune, and why aurally?
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#640155 - 02/10/09 04:10 PM Re: TuneLab Multi-Partial Tuning
Les Koltvedt Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/05
Posts: 3195
Loc: Canton, MI
UnrightTooner... I have been working with a tech on and off since last summer, at first it was just to learn how to work on my own piano, with the thought of pursuing it in an early retirement. But that all changed last fall and am looking at making this one of my future careers.
_________________________
Les Koltvedt
LK Piano
Servicing the S. Eastern Michigan Area
PTG Associate

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#640156 - 02/10/09 05:02 PM Re: TuneLab Multi-Partial Tuning
Jeff A. Smith, RPT Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/01/03
Posts: 476
Loc: Angola, Indiana USA
M&H,

Here's a link to one of the better current books -- and associated DVDs -- on aural tuning:

http://www.thebutlerschool.org/The_Butler_School/Books_and_DVDs.html

Unfortunately, it looks like his own supply of the book is temporarily depleted. Other sources may have it, or you could check back. The DVD has very good sound quality, and allows you to listen to the beats as he tunes an entire piano.

There are things in Butler's book that aren't even in older books, because the theory and practice of this art have progressed quite a bit. The Cree Fisher book for example, although it's being reprinted in a nice cover, is really ancient. That's not to say there aren't some good things there, but his thought on temperament tuning -- for example -- is really dated.

Reblitz is good. If you can get a copy of Virgil Smith's little book on aural tuning, available through the PTG website, it's also well worth the read.

Be careful of taking any one person's view or method as the absolute. Some things really are that cut and dried, but many more are not.

Jeff
_________________________
Jeff A. Smith
Registered Piano Technician
Indiana, USA

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#640157 - 02/10/09 06:05 PM Re: TuneLab Multi-Partial Tuning
Les Koltvedt Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/05
Posts: 3195
Loc: Canton, MI
Jeff,

Thanks for the link.

Les
_________________________
Les Koltvedt
LK Piano
Servicing the S. Eastern Michigan Area
PTG Associate

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#640158 - 02/10/09 06:15 PM Re: TuneLab Multi-Partial Tuning
David Jenson Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 2034
Loc: Maine
"... am looking at making this one of my future careers." Monster M&H

'One of. "Really?

The learning curve for doing tuning and repairs on a pro level is steep enough that you might want to make it an exclusive career. At first you don't really know what you don't know, and it can look like a casual effort will suffice.

You will know what you can do, and what level you would like to achieve. Good luck. Aim high.
_________________________
David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----

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