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#640644 - 09/02/07 05:03 PM Bridge Notching
Duane McGuire Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/27/06
Posts: 49
Loc: Utah
On the Stieff rebuild I am undertaking, I am replacing treble bridge caps due to extensive cracking. I've completed the cap replacement, and will shortly begin the notching and pin replacement.

I am curious about the original notching technique. I've included shots below of the tenor bridge -- I don't have shots in profile of the treble bridge. It appears that the notches are cut on a curve away from the the pins. Was this done with a straight chisel, varying the angle of cut as the cut progresses? Or was this curve achieved with a different chisel type, or other tool?

I have not yet done a mock up and experimented with chisel techniques, but I am curious what you all can tell me.

Tenor bridge showing curve of notching:





Original treble bridge cap:





New treble bridge cap:






Thanks in advance for your time, experience, and observations.
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www.mcguirepiano.com

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#640645 - 09/02/07 05:26 PM Re: Bridge Notching
Rod Verhnjak Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/09/06
Posts: 2772
Loc: Vancouver B.C. Canada
That is created by technique. Both by the chisel and by the side cut. You kind of scoop the wood with the chisel instead of pushing strait down.
Practice on some scrap.

The first bridge I made 15 years ago was a practice bridge. I made the entire root treble to tenor for a grand. Capped it then drilled, notched and pined it. To this day it hangs on my shop wall.

It was a great way to learn the craft of bridge making.
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#640646 - 09/02/07 06:17 PM Re: Bridge Notching
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 15842
Loc: Oakland
A friend of mine who makes violins points out that it is the last cuts where neatness counts. You can rough it out, but it is your last cuts that should be smooth and sure.
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#640647 - 09/02/07 11:27 PM Re: Bridge Notching
Duane McGuire Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/27/06
Posts: 49
Loc: Utah
Thanks for your inputs. I am very grateful for your responses. Though my intuition was correct, the voice of experience is worth a lot!

I'll certainly work on technique before touching that new bridge cap.

I'll post some photos here, when the work is complete.

Thanks.
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www.mcguirepiano.com

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#640648 - 09/14/07 08:25 PM Re: Bridge Notching
Craigen Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/01/05
Posts: 1815
Loc: West Coast
Flat chisel. Flat side up. Mega-Ultra sharp and polished until you can see yourself in it.
Even the edge on new decent quality chisels is not refined enough.
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#640649 - 09/16/07 03:08 PM Re: Bridge Notching
woodfab Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/06/05
Posts: 224
Loc: Stoneham, MA
This is the chisel that they use at M & H

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#640650 - 09/17/07 02:16 AM Re: Bridge Notching
Larry Buck Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 1990
Loc: Lowell MA
Woodfab, the chisel used at Mason and Hamlin IS quite nice.

Consider this though, the old timers did not use a flat chisel.

Look at some of the old bridges.
They were not done with a flat chisel.

A flat chisel's edge is not pointed in quite the correct direction.
_________________________
""if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail" Abraham Maslow"

E. J. Buck & Sons
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978 458 8688
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#640651 - 09/18/07 02:12 AM Re: Bridge Notching
woodfab Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/06/05
Posts: 224
Loc: Stoneham, MA
Larry, do you find that A curved out notch works better than a straight notch?
I like the look of a curved notch and thought it might be better than a straight notch but when I went on the M&H piano tour they told me the straight notch works very well.

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#640652 - 09/20/07 01:14 AM Re: Bridge Notching
Larry Buck Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 1990
Loc: Lowell MA
I have not done tests to determine that one is better than another. I do think it is critical that the string clear properly.

I happen to like the "style" of the older notch.
_________________________
""if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail" Abraham Maslow"

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
www.finepianodevelopment.com

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#640653 - 09/20/07 11:39 AM Re: Bridge Notching
Larry Buck Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 1990
Loc: Lowell MA
Additional note,

As folks may know, chisels are denoted by scoop and sweep.

Bridge chisels of old are "zero" sweep and a slight scoop.

The ones I know of are custom made and duplicate the "old" style cut very nicely.
_________________________
""if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail" Abraham Maslow"

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
www.finepianodevelopment.com

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#640654 - 09/20/07 12:02 PM Re: Bridge Notching
Larry Buck Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 1990
Loc: Lowell MA
Here is how I joint my bridge caps.

It is a large file pic so here is the link.

www.ejbuckpiano.com/Coe/Sound%20Board/BridgeScarf.jpg

I'll photo a completed bridge and put it up.
_________________________
""if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail" Abraham Maslow"

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
www.finepianodevelopment.com

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#640655 - 09/20/07 01:04 PM Re: Bridge Notching
Larry Buck Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 1990
Loc: Lowell MA
Here is an old photo of some bridge notching I was doing.

www.ejbuckpiano.com/Charlie/Bridges/Notching.jpg
_________________________
""if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail" Abraham Maslow"

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
www.finepianodevelopment.com

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#640656 - 09/20/07 02:32 PM Re: Bridge Notching
John Delmore Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/12/05
Posts: 373
Loc: Shreveport, LA
Larry,
I've never seen chisels designated by "scoop"...is this the degree of "swan-neck", like those used to clean the bottom of a mortise? I'm assuming anything other that the generic swan-neck would certainly be custom. Zero sweep, I know!!
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#640657 - 09/26/07 03:30 AM Re: Bridge Notching
Duane McGuire Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/27/06
Posts: 49
Loc: Utah

Thanks again for your experience and observations. I'm interested in alternate chisels, now that Larry has suggested it, but I decided to go ahead and do this first bridge notching with flat chisels. I used the techniques described by Rod and Craigen above. I'm pleased with the result, but there were some learning moments (as I expected ... this is a learning project, not a commercial job).

Photos of my work are below.


Bridge Notching

Bridge Notching


The second photo above shows some of my "learning". On some of the notches in the lower section of the bridge, you can see some markings on the end of the notch. I came to realize that these marks were made by the top of the chisel as it exited the cut. This is from the ridge back of the chisel. I was making the dish cut with the flat side of the chisel facing up. So a different back profile would be better for this work. Also at the fourth unison in the upper section, you can see an awkward transition from dished notching to straight cut notches. I discovered that the length of cut didn't allow for an attractive scooped notch, but aesthetically it would have been better to change at the section break, I think.
_________________________
- Duane McGuire
www.mcguirepiano.com

PTG Associate

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#640658 - 09/26/07 04:13 PM Re: Bridge Notching
Gene Nelson Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 1153
Loc: Old Hangtown California
Larry, your works looks very nice and shows lots of experience. Do you think that just a straight cut is easier and a better choice for beginners?
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PTG Member

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#640659 - 09/27/07 02:20 AM Re: Bridge Notching
Larry Buck Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 1990
Loc: Lowell MA
Thanks Gene,


 Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Nelson:
Do you think that just a straight cut is easier and a better choice for beginners? [/b]
I suppose so.

I was thinking that the choice for tools will determine results, regardless of experience.
_________________________
""if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail" Abraham Maslow"

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
www.finepianodevelopment.com

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#640660 - 09/27/07 02:22 AM Re: Bridge Notching
Larry Buck Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 1990
Loc: Lowell MA
Duplicate
_________________________
""if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail" Abraham Maslow"

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
www.finepianodevelopment.com

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#640661 - 09/27/07 02:23 AM Re: Bridge Notching
Larry Buck Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 1990
Loc: Lowell MA
Duane, Great job for a first go around.

You are sure getting a taste for the process ...

I think that, with practice and the right tools, you can easily take the scoop right through the treble. .
_________________________
""if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail" Abraham Maslow"

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
www.finepianodevelopment.com

Top
#640662 - 09/27/07 03:07 AM Re: Bridge Notching
Duane McGuire Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/27/06
Posts: 49
Loc: Utah
Larry,

Thanks for your encouragement, compliment and additional remarks. Indeed, I finished the notching this evening, and I found technique that would allow me to scoop at the top of the treble. On the lower end, I had found that the chisel with the flat side up worked well, but in the upper treble with shorter working area a nice scoop is produced with the more conventional orientation of the chisel. I then went back and scooped the ones I had cut flat yesterday.

I'm totally convinced that custom chisels would produce a better result more easily.

Larry, can you tell me how to proceed with the custom tool route? I'm guessing the tools you have were made years ago, so this might be a hard question. Above you say that the bridge chisel should have "zero" sweep and a slight scoop. I'll do some googling on that, but can you perhaps also suggest where to go looking for a supplier?

You and everyone here have given me so much!

Thanks!!!! \:\)
_________________________
- Duane McGuire
www.mcguirepiano.com

PTG Associate

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