Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Topic Options
#641996 - 02/04/06 04:49 PM It Can't Be fixed - Everett Studio
JIMBOB Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/18/02
Posts: 1323
Loc: South Carolina
I just returned from an interesting service call to a local church. A member of the church called me to check out a studio piano they have. Apparently they had a grand piano donated to the church and they need to move the studio out of the sanctuary. A very vocal member of the church has stated over and over that the piano can not be fixed and it should be donated. E 2 did not work at all. I lifted the lid and lo and behold the problem was 2 broken bass strings. The piano was like brand new inside- no rust, great looking felts etc. This is as solid a studio piano as you could want in an oak finish. To replace it with a new studio they would be looking at a range of $5-$8k. Why someone would keep insisting it could not be fixed is beyond me. Apparently the " expert" is the wife of the music director. We are hoping to have the new strings on by next Thursday so that when they have choir practice the piano will be fixed. I could have spliced the strings but they wanted to go with new strings. I found the old strings on the bottomboard so it makes for easier duplication. Anyone know much about the Everett Studio Model 21 Oak ?
_________________________
Certificate in Piano Technology
Associate Member PTG
Yamaha & Petrof/Nordiska Training
Dampp-Chaser System Installer
Certified Pianomation Installer

Top
(ad PTG 568) Grand Action Regulation in 37 Steps
Grand Action Regulation in 37 Steps
#641997 - 02/04/06 05:11 PM Re: It Can't Be fixed - Everett Studio
Monica K. Offline

Platinum Supporter until Dec 31 2012


Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 17786
Loc: Lexington, Kentucky
Sounds like a win-win situation...the church gets another piano in playing form, and YOU earn yourself the reputation as being the Miracle Worker Tech Who Fixed the Piano That Couldn't Be Fixed. I say, don't let on that it was just two broken strings...let 'em wonder. ;\)
_________________________
Mason & Hamlin A -- 91997
My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/pianomonica

Top
#641998 - 02/04/06 06:44 PM Re: It Can't Be fixed - Everett Studio
scutch Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/04/04
Posts: 347
Loc: california
Maybe the person stating that the piano cannot be fixed has a hidden motive?

Top
#641999 - 02/05/06 02:35 AM Re: It Can't Be fixed - Everett Studio
velopresto Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Santa Clara, CA
Maybe Scutch is right...

I had an Everett 21 from the early Yamaha-Everett era, around 1982 or so. Great little piano! If I hadn't inherited my grandma's M and H (pretty thrashed by the time it got to me, restored since), I'd still have the Everett.

Something similar these days would be a Yamaha P-2, or a Kawai UST-7. You earned your money, plus all of the business you should get out of the deal!
_________________________
Dave Stahl
Dave Stahl Piano Service
Santa Clara, CA
Serving most of the greater SF Bay Area
http://dstahlpiano.net

Top
#642000 - 02/05/06 08:22 AM Re: It Can't Be fixed - Everett Studio
Les Koltvedt Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/05
Posts: 3195
Loc: Canton, MI
Here I come to save the day... ( mightymouse theme in the background) Nice job JIMBOB
_________________________
Les Koltvedt
LK Piano
Servicing the S. Eastern Michigan Area
PTG Associate

Top
#642001 - 02/05/06 04:24 PM Re: It Can't Be fixed - Everett Studio
bellspiano Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/04
Posts: 507
Loc: Boston, MA
I wonder to whom the piano would have been donated?

(There's never a dull moment with you, JimBob!)
_________________________
Dorrie Bell
retired piano technician
Boston, MA

Top
#642002 - 02/05/06 05:11 PM Re: It Can't Be fixed - Everett Studio
Gill the Piano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/20/06
Posts: 298
Loc: Marlow, Buckinghamshire, Engla...
...and I wonder if whoever recommended the new piano would get a commission from wherever it was purchased...?
It's a dreadful thing to be a cynic...!
_________________________
Piano tuner 23 years.
Musica lux in tenebris...

Top
#642003 - 02/05/06 08:44 PM Re: It Can't Be fixed - Everett Studio
Bob Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 3875
Don't forget those new strings will be out of tune in a week. Pull them up and they will be out again 2 weeks after that- and a month after that. Stretch them as much as you can after installation to limit the slippage.
_________________________
www.PianoTunerOrlando.com






Top
#642004 - 02/06/06 06:34 AM Re: It Can't Be fixed - Everett Studio
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3214
Loc: Virginia, USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Bob:
Don't forget those new strings will be out of tune in a week. Pull them up and they will be out again 2 weeks after that- and a month after that. Stretch them as much as you can after installation to limit the slippage. [/b]
Just out of curiosity, do piano strings slip, or stretch?

I ask because most people think new guitar strings stretch, but they don't. There is nowhere near enough tension on a guitar string to actually stretch it. But they do slip at the peg.

Is the same true for piano? or do they actually stretch?

Thanks
_________________________
gotta go practice

Top
#642005 - 02/06/06 06:53 PM Re: It Can't Be fixed - Everett Studio
Dale Fox Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 1064
Loc: Nor California Sacramento area
Just out of curiosity, do piano strings slip, or stretch?

I ask because most people think new guitar strings stretch, but they don't. There is nowhere near enough tension on a guitar string to actually stretch it. But they do slip at the peg.

Is the same true for piano? or do they actually stretch?

Thanks [/QB][/QUOTE]

Actually, they relax. "Stretching" is the verb commonly used to describe the perceived effect as the pitch drops. The engineering term is "stress relaxation."

Dale
_________________________
Dale Fox
Registered Piano Technician
Remanufacturing/Rebuilding

Top
#642006 - 02/06/06 09:59 PM Re: It Can't Be fixed - Everett Studio
Cy Shuster, RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/18/05
Posts: 3448
Loc: Albuquerque, NM
Plus, every time they change direction, new strings make a wide curve, that becomes more and more like two straight lines with a kink over time. (Is that what you meant, Dale?)

I doubt that the length of steel music wire changes much over time.

--Cy--
_________________________
Cy Shuster, RPT
505-265-4234
www.shusterpiano.com
www.facebook.com/shusterpiano
Albuquerque, New Mexico

Registered Piano Technician
Dampp-Chaser Certified Installer
PianoDisc Certified Service Technician

Top
#642007 - 02/06/06 11:33 PM Re: It Can't Be fixed - Everett Studio
Dale Fox Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 1064
Loc: Nor California Sacramento area
 Quote:
Originally posted by Cy Shuster:
Plus, every time they change direction, new strings make a wide curve, that becomes more and more like two straight lines with a kink over time. (Is that what you meant, Dale?)

I doubt that the length of steel music wire changes much over time.

--Cy-- [/b]
Hey Cy,

actually it does become longer and somewhat thinner with time and stress. That's why we must pull a new wire up to pitch more frequently than an old wire. If you take a given length of wire and put it under let's say, 170 pounds of tension for a moment it will not show any appreciable lengthening. If you put it under the same stress for a couple of years and then release the tension it will be measurably longer. That's why the tuning pin has more coil wrapped aroung the pin after several tunings than it does after the first chipping. The initial rate of stress relaxation is much faster than what we experience after several tunings.

Stress relaxation also explains why the tendency is for pianos to always go down in pitch over time if we account for the seasonal changes in pitch due to humidity swings. How often do we find a piano which hasn't been tuned for ten years and is up in pitch? Hardly ever, unless it's been moved from the desert to maybe the Gulf Coast. Or some other extreme.


Dale
_________________________
Dale Fox
Registered Piano Technician
Remanufacturing/Rebuilding

Top
#642008 - 02/07/06 06:19 AM Re: It Can't Be fixed - Everett Studio
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3214
Loc: Virginia, USA
To me that doesn't make sense.

Sure, pitch goes down, but remember you have a lot of strings pulling on the structure, and if the structure gives at all pitch goes down without strings stretching.

Steel is not one of those materials that show any significant "creep." (Time dependent deformation under submaximal stress.)

The clue is probably your comment that the initial rate of change is greater than after several tunings. That is an indication that slip is involved, not stretch. When a string wraps around a peg, some of the resistance to being pulled through is on the friction between coils. After you take the slop out of that system it stops slipping. If it were stretching, there is no reason to think the rate of change would slow. The tension on the string remains approximately the same (or the pitch would change drastically) and same is true of the string dimensions. Work hardening isn't going to occur without significant (~30%) elongation.
_________________________
gotta go practice

Top
#642009 - 02/07/06 11:40 AM Re: It Can't Be fixed - Everett Studio
Dale Fox Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 1064
Loc: Nor California Sacramento area
 Quote:
Originally posted by TimR:
To me that doesn't make sense.

*Perhaps you aren't following.

Sure, pitch goes down, but remember you have a lot of strings pulling on the structure, and if the structure gives at all pitch goes down without strings stretching.

*It also happens if you string only one string as in a repair. The structure should then allow all the neighboring string to drop an equal amount if your theory explains this.

Steel is not one of those materials that show any significant "creep." (Time dependent deformation under submaximal stress.)

* Compared to other materials it shows little "creep". Little is not "None".

The clue is probably your comment that the initial rate of change is greater than after several tunings.

*That is when the initial rate of relaxation is greatest. When the wire is first stressed. The rate of relaxation or creep is dependent on the load being applied .

That is an indication that slip is involved, not stretch. When a string wraps around a peg, some of the resistance to being pulled through is on the friction between coils.

* I have no idea what this means. If a proper becket is formed and the coils are wound around the pin in a proper coil, what slippage can there be. Educate me please.


After you take the slop out of that system it stops slipping. If it were stretching, there is no reason to think the rate of change would slow.

*Again, the term stretching is being used and it's not the proper term. Stretching indicates elasticity which means that the material recovers it's original length or shape when the stress is removed.


The tension on the string remains approximately the same (or the pitch would change drastically) and same is true of the string dimensions.

*So this explains why pianos never have to be raised in pitch? Also, why we never need to come back to retune replaced wires and why they stop dropping as quickly between tunings? I don't understand your conclusions. We return the tension in the course of tuning. This is why new pianos need more tuning than old ones and why replaced wires need the same treatment.

Work hardening isn't going to occur without significant (~30%) elongation. [/b]
* I agree. This is why work hardening occurs at specific places ion the wire. IE, the becket, capo termination, bridge pin termination, beginning of the bridge pin coil. These are the normal places for string breakage to occur because these are the places that work hardening has occured. Work hardening has nothing to do with relaxation or creep.

Try a simple experiment. Tie two loops in a length of #13 wire. Make the loops atleast 2 meters (2 yards +) apart. Hang one end from a ceiling hook able to hold over 100 Kg (220 lbs.)Hang a 75Kg (165 lb) weight from the other end. Somewhere in the now under tension length, use a meter stick or yard stick to make two precise marks as to indicate that precise length at the initial time of tensioning your monochord. Now, go about your normal business for about 3 months.
Return to your experiment and using the same meter stick or yard stick, compare the length while still under tension. I await your results.

Dale Fox
_________________________
Dale Fox
Registered Piano Technician
Remanufacturing/Rebuilding

Top
#642010 - 02/07/06 12:28 PM Re: It Can't Be fixed - Everett Studio
Roy123 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/20/04
Posts: 1717
Loc: Massachusetts
I have read that the crystal structure in piano wires will, to some extent, start to line up with one another due to the tension in the string. As they line up, the metal's yield point gets higher. This phenomenon could explain why strings stretch more when first put in. I don't remember where I read this, and haven't seen it corroborated, so I can't judge its veracity.

Top
#642011 - 02/07/06 08:25 PM Re: It Can't Be fixed - Everett Studio
Cy Shuster, RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/18/05
Posts: 3448
Loc: Albuquerque, NM
Why don't 100-year-old pianos have six or seven turns on the pin, then? It seems that the tuning pin must unwind a little bit...

--Cy--
_________________________
Cy Shuster, RPT
505-265-4234
www.shusterpiano.com
www.facebook.com/shusterpiano
Albuquerque, New Mexico

Registered Piano Technician
Dampp-Chaser Certified Installer
PianoDisc Certified Service Technician

Top
#642012 - 02/08/06 01:58 AM Re: It Can't Be fixed - Everett Studio
Dale Fox Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 1064
Loc: Nor California Sacramento area
http://www.instron.com/wa/applications/test_types/creep_stress_relax.aspx

Please go to the attached link for an outside source of information and explanation of stress relaxation.

This can be applied directly to piano wire under tension.

Dale
_________________________
Dale Fox
Registered Piano Technician
Remanufacturing/Rebuilding

Top
#642013 - 02/08/06 01:59 AM Re: It Can't Be fixed - Everett Studio
Dale Fox Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 1064
Loc: Nor California Sacramento area
Any other questions?

Dale
_________________________
Dale Fox
Registered Piano Technician
Remanufacturing/Rebuilding

Top
#642014 - 02/08/06 03:57 AM Re: It Can't Be fixed - Everett Studio
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3214
Loc: Virginia, USA
Okay, a couple of points.

You are quite correct to complain about my fuzzy use of the term stretch. It has two possible meanings, elastic and plastic. Elastic stretching occurs when a tension is put on the wire less than the yield strength. When the tension is removed the material will snap back to its original length. The amount it elongates is given by the relation E = sigma/epsilon, where sigma is stress in pounds per square inch, epsilon is strain in inches/inch, and E = modulus of elasticity in pounds per square inch. Sorry, couldn't find my cheat sheet for how to do the symbols on the keyboard.

However, if the yield strength of the steel is exceeded then the "stretch" or elongation is plastic and permanent. This is what has been alleged occurs in piano and guitar strings. This is what I know does not happen in guitar strings and strongly suspect does not happen in piano strings. Piano strings are AISI 1060 steel, AFAIK, highly coldworked from being drawn, and with surprisingly high strengths (ultimate tensile strength in the 360,000 psi range).

(Example: pulling a rubber band is elastic, pulling taffy is plastic)

Now, if piano strings did stretch in the plastic sense, it would occur immediately when the load was applied. So that isn't likely what we are talking about. We're looking for a slow process that continues at some reduced rate for the life of the piano, right? Since you NEVER have to lower a tuning?

Creep is a different phenomenon that occurs when the load is below yield strength. The Instron url you referenced is a good one, that is exactly what I was talking about. But you didn't read far enough. The curves for steel are all at elevated temperatures, starting around 550 C (1022 F). Steel at room temperatures has no detectable creep. If you can find a reference that disagrees I'd love to see it.

So if it's not creep and it's not plastic stretch, what is it?

Hey, I dunno, I just play the things. (though I am a mechanical engineer) Pins are under torque resisted by friction. Do they slowly turn a little bit? Strings are wrapped around pins and are kept from sliding by friction against the pin and friction against the neighboring coil. Do they slowly slide? In tiny jerks like an earthquake?

I know that when you replace guitar strings they loosen at first and need retuning. You can prevent most of that with a hard yank on the string after you put it on. People used to believe this prestretched the string. Now we know what really happens. The wire slides past it's neighboring coil until all the slack is taken up. It isn't much, not really even visible, but enough to change pitch.
_________________________
gotta go practice

Top
#642015 - 02/08/06 04:46 AM Re: It Can't Be fixed - Everett Studio
Cy Shuster, RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/18/05
Posts: 3448
Loc: Albuquerque, NM
 Quote:
Originally posted by Dale Fox:

Try a simple experiment. Tie two loops in a length of #13 wire. Make the loops atleast 2 meters (2 yards +) apart. Hang one end from a ceiling hook able to hold over 100 Kg (220 lbs.)Hang a 75Kg (165 lb) weight from the other end. Somewhere in the now under tension length, use a meter stick or yard stick to make two precise marks as to indicate that precise length at the initial time of tensioning your monochord. Now, go about your normal business for about 3 months.
Return to your experiment and using the same meter stick or yard stick, compare the length while still under tension. I await your results.

Dale Fox [/b]
Surely this can be calculated. I looked at matweb.com, but found no values for relaxation. Do you have a rough idea of the order of magnitude here in length change: 1%? 0.1%? Does it decrease geometrically over time, or is it linear? How do they compensate for this in, say, suspension bridges (civil engineering here, not bellywork :-)?

And is there a significant amount of friction between neighboring coils? That seems hard to believe (but I've been surprised by physics before).

--Cy--
_________________________
Cy Shuster, RPT
505-265-4234
www.shusterpiano.com
www.facebook.com/shusterpiano
Albuquerque, New Mexico

Registered Piano Technician
Dampp-Chaser Certified Installer
PianoDisc Certified Service Technician

Top
#642016 - 02/08/06 06:15 AM Re: It Can't Be fixed - Everett Studio
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3214
Loc: Virginia, USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Cy Shuster:
[/qb]
How do they compensate for this in, say, suspension bridges (civil engineering here, not bellywork :-)?

And is there a significant amount of friction between neighboring coils? That seems hard to believe (but I've been surprised by physics before).

--Cy-- [/QB][/QUOTE]

We don't compensate for this. We calculate deflection (and in fact most bad designs result in excess deflection, hardly ever do we actually break something ). Deflection is purely elastic, we carefully design to avoid the plastic region, and of course way short of the failure zone. (There are exceptions. Properly torqued bolts are intended to be loaded into the plastic zone. This is why we never reinstall a used bolt. Also why I NEVER use a dry fastener, I even have been known to lube wood screws. Whoops, I'm at risk of digressing.)

Friction between neighboring coils. Well, you guys are the piano wire experts, I'm reasoning from guitar experience.

Ever restring a guitar? Warning: does not apply to gut/nylon strings! The standard method, that goofy wrap knot, is of course unnecessary. Here's the easy way. Put the ball end on. Put the other end through the hole in the peg. Pull it through most of the way, just leaving a little sag in it. Holding the sag with one hand, kink the wire at the end of the hole in the peg. Now wind it tight by turning the peg. You're done. The kink holds it just long enough for the coil to peg and coil to coil friction to take over.

The fact that piano and guitar strings break when we overtighten suggests we are normally loading these strings very close to the tensile stress limit - maybe near plastic, maybe sometimes in it. Creep requires two criteria be satisfied though: high enough load, AND high enough temperature.
_________________________
gotta go practice

Top
#642017 - 02/10/06 10:05 PM Re: It Can't Be fixed - Everett Studio
JIMBOB Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/18/02
Posts: 1323
Loc: South Carolina
I put the new srings on tonight and pulled them up a little sharp. They sounded great and the lady that called me was extremely happy. It sounds like someone in the church was trying to pull a quick one by donating the piano to make room for the newly donated grand piano. The 2 strings were broken at almost exactly the same point which makes me a little suspicous. Perhaps they were cut. Nice to finish a long week by working in a church and making things right.
_________________________
Certificate in Piano Technology
Associate Member PTG
Yamaha & Petrof/Nordiska Training
Dampp-Chaser System Installer
Certified Pianomation Installer

Top

Moderator:  Piano World 
What's Hot!!
8 Live Ragtime Piano Players on the Cape!
-------------------
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Seiler Pianos
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Staying in one position for too long - tension
by DeadPoets
25 minutes 43 seconds ago
Cleaning strings
by PhilipInChina
Today at 05:10 AM
recording digital piano
by johan d
Today at 03:38 AM
Ambitious Jazz beginner
by Ruan
Today at 01:10 AM
Is this a real Steinway?
by chernobieff
Yesterday at 11:51 PM
Who's Online
60 registered (anotherscott, 36251, andwi, 12 invisible), 1130 Guests and 15 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
76610 Members
42 Forums
158409 Topics
2326281 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission