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I tuned this piano two different times with Verituner Pocket and both times I touched up the fine tuning starting from A0, verifying every note was within 1 cent, but when I got to around C5 I discovered that all the notes I had just verified were in tune, were all of a sudden all flat 4 to 9 cents and I don't know why. Could this be caused from the fluctuating piano temperature? It does sit right against an outside wall in front of a huge window and it was below freezing both times I tuned it. Or could the Verituner Tuning File be messed up?

When I was there I didn't think to check where the forced air heat supply was but I wouldn't be surprised if it is right behind the sound board.

This sounds like a structural problem. Is it a grand or an upright? If its a grand it could be that the pinblock isn't fitted against the plate flange. If it's a an upright try checking the plate screws to see if they are loose. (This could be the cause with a grand as well.)It is unlikley to be the placement in the room.

I am always amazed that *anyone* would start tuning a piano at A0! To me, that says it all that you did that. To quote from another thread, "You don't even know what you don't know". Now, I am not trying to be cruel but I think the problem really is that what you thought was a "fine tuning" was anything but that. What you experienced was probably quite normal. There is nothing wrong with the piano and the humidity conditions are very dry, yes and that is why you had a flat piano that needs a pitch raise pass *before* it could ever accept a "fine" tuning.

You'll need to study up on pitch raise techniques. At this time of year, most of this continent is fighting pianos that need quite aggressive techniques to get them to hold pitch. The thing that makes the effort so appalling as it was for me twice today with pianos that absolutely *had* to be at standard pitch is that those same pianos will go sharp enough to make a dog howl, come next July. It's always a losing battle.

I'd need more information before guessing whether it was a Verituner issue or a piano issue.

Coarse mode first, then fine tuning mode?
You mentioned touch up - was this from a saved file?
Was there a pitch adjustment involved?
Only this piano reacts this way? (other pianos are fine?)
What kind of piano?

Nice puzzle!

Don't forget your ears. You learn very quickly when you listen to what you're doing that things move around quite a bit as you work. Part of the skill of tuning is anticipating the movement and compensating.

Starting at AO and tuning from there will get you all sorts of deviation as you progress. The dip you got in the "problem area" - mid treble - is normal for this time of year in the North. For some pianos in my area, that's a pretty small deviation.

Yea, when clients want strict A-440 in February and September in Maine, I expect to hear dogs howling at these instruments in 6 months! I encourage customers to bend with the climate-induced pitch swings, but that's not always possible, or that easy to explain.

If the piano started 20 cents or more flat, which is common this time of year, I would expect this to happen. Where was the pitch when you started?

I used to have the same problems when learning to tune. I used to tune with Tunelab Pro. I even talk to Scott to ask him why a piano I had just tuned was flat by 5 or 6 cents. I imagined all kind of reasons. Even that the pocket PC should be warmed before begin to tune, etc.

What he answered was the same that Bill Bremmer did here. And it was true. I had no idea of what I was doing and I blamed Tunelab Pro.

I guess the best thing you can do, Straightclaw, is to find a mentor. That way is the short one.

Otherwise it will be a long looney way...

Please read my post a little closer, and let me explain the procedure I used, maybe it will be more clear to you then. I first coarse tuned the piano which was originally 8 cents flat, starting from the middle of the piano. I then fine tuned it starting from the middle of the piano again, (or if you don't feel this is worthy of your definition of fine tuning then simply call it a second pass tuning), tuning A4 first then from the lowest tenor note to C8 then from highest bass note down to A0 (The Veritune recommended tuning sequence). I THEN started from A0 verifying each note was in tune with Verituner (they all were within +/- 1 cents, (this was just a touch-up pass). When I got to C5 I noticed the notes A0 to C5 which I had just verified were all flat 4-8 cents.

By the way, I have used Tunelab, tuning from A0 to C8 no problems, it is really quite easy. Just perfom a pitch raise first if needed.

Oh and, you mean there are forces on them thar strings!? I had no idea! Is that what makes that pretty twanging sound? You mean twisting them thar pins tighter pushes and pulls on other stuff too?? Who would've thought...Sounds too complicated for me, I think I'd better stick to tuning banjos.

Thanks for the reply Thomson,

I'll check out the Plate Mounting Screws.

It is old, about 70 years old I would guess. it is a Whitney by Kimball Spinet.

Possible broken sounding board…………… I had this experience once where the break was one inch from the treble bridge, top side of the bridge, the entire length of the board. This caused the sounding board to be moving in more than one direction at the same time, and stabilizing the tuning became impossible.

Good time though to let the customer know that I sold used equipment…………….

I think the Whitney spinet by Kimball is a favorite of Jerry Groot’s , Ron Alexander’s and many other technicians around here……….. :p

www.silverwoodpianos.com

Ahh, a quality Whitney. That is your problem. Everything can move on those, not just the pin block.....

Wroong Dan!!! I'll let the Honorable Groot speak for himself, but curse be the one who came up with the design, scale, even the thought of the Whitney!!!

I know some in here dont care for the term POS...but the Whitney certainly fits...IMHO!!

Whitney's are not the piano of choice for learning to tune.

You'll be lucky it doesn't implode if you try to keep it at pitch. You should have told us what it was sooner.

But can the pitch change that quickly, and all the notes going flat at the same time? That's what really had me puzzled. I was just touching up the tuning, fixing a unison here or there, starting from A0 and when I got to around C5 I noticed that all these notes A0 to C5 that I had just checked, were 4-8 cents flat per my ETD. During a previous tuning on this same piano I had something very similar happen. I was touching up the unisons the same as this time, and when I got to the middle, maybe it was around C5, I can't remember, I noticed the Bass and Tenor of the piano was out of tune 3-4 cents, I think it was flat, I can't recall. So I tuned it again, again and again. It would not hold it's tune. I suspected maybe it was something with Verituner Pocket since I had just purchased it and maybe was, or still am doing something wrong with the program.

At any rate, the general consensus here appears to be that this piano will not stay in tune, and if I do actually get this one tuned perfectly it would probably explode. I believe it!!

Ron,

This is the second time I tuned this piano. It is a Whitney spinet by Kimball, I think 60 to 70 years old. The first time I tuned it it was 40 cents flats and I used coarse tuning then fine to tune it. Then for this tuning the piano was 8 cents flat - I just loaded the saved tuning file from the 1st tuning and did a coarse tuning then a fine tuning. Actually I didn't come back and do a separate touch up visit, but rather was touching up the fine tuning I had just performed, just tweaking some of the unisons.

This is the only piano that reacted this way, but then it is only the fourth that I've tuned with Verituner Pocket.

Going back to your first post...

No one has looked at the temperature issue. While I may hate to tune the Whitneys as much as the next guy, it shouldn't behave like you've indicated. Nothing about your approach with the Verituner indicates a problem there.

Forced air heat? Sun moving across the board? A big change of temp, or sunshine could certainly cause some issues - especially if you noticed everything from A0 up to C5 or so moving.

I was thinking bridges unglued or cracked, and cracks in the board, but temp changes would have a global effect.

Ron Koval

I think nothing further is necessary to be said on the subject of Whitney spinets by me.

Except for... May they rest in peace...

My last few tunings were pitch raises.I experienced the same thing.I had set my temperaments,worked my way up the treble,and I found the C5-C6 octave had dropped some while tuning the high treble.Once I retuned the C5-C6 octaves,everything was fine after that.

I prefer Whitney spinets to Kimball spinets. There is a difference in scaling.

This shows an advantage to aural tuning. Since each note is tuned to notes that have already been tuned, then if the pitch of the piano changes some, the tuning progresses with the change in pitch. The result is a piano more in tune with itself, even if it is not quite at the correct pitch overall.

What!???

In pitch raises, notes fall down as you progress on the scale. How this will help the piano to be more in tune with itself?

With an ETD you can anticipate the fall in pitch thus at the end you are fairly close to the in tune pitches.