I cannot for the life of me understand why Mr. Bremmer got so upset about me pointing out that organs have sustain and no decay, while pianos have decay and no sustain. That is a simple fact. It is just to say that if there is any such thing as a "Pipe Organ Sound," that is not it. For that matter, as pipe organs are subject to a number of things that keep them being particularly well tuned, above all, being very heat sensitive, the chances are tuning has little to do with such an effect.

Really, when you get right down to it, the real question is what constitutes being in tune. That depends on the instrument. The strings on a violin are tuned to perfect fifths. Those on a piano are tuned to tempered fifths. Yet we do not say that one is in tune and the other is out of tune.

It all boils down to error analysis, or in layman terms, how much we can get away with. Tuning is never a matter of being exact down to whatever fineness you can imagine. At some point, you have to stop. If you have ever tried tuning a piano under a ceiling fan, for instance, you will have found that the interference from the echo off the whirling blades will affect the beats. Well, at some point, even your breathing will have the same effect, expanding the vibration as you inhale, shrinking it as you exhale. However, that happens too slowly to be noticeable. The point is, at some point, you are close enough.

If you play more than one string together, they will affect one another. This video, which came up in another topic, shows how that works. Things like that tend to make things sound okay if you are close enough.

I judge whether I am close enough by how intervals sound on the piano I am tuning. My goal is to avoid any interval that sounds bad. That may not be perfect, but there are so many other ways to deviate from perfection, such as scale design, regulation, voicing and things like that, that perfection in tuning may be no more than having all intervals sound good.

Incidentally, the way most people thing of the sound of a pipe organ is through the mixture of different ranks of pipes, adding harmonics to the rather pure sine wave form of a flute pipe. That is more the effect you aim for when voicing a piano, rather than tuning.

BDB:

It is unfortunate when someone gets offended during a discussion, because then the conversation usually turns negative.

I understand what you mean by “The point is, at some point, you are close enough.” I believe there can be different factors that determine what is “close enough.” On a good piano it can be the tuning pin friction and string rendering. On a poor piano maybe it is the scaling. And on a bad day even aural perception.

Also there are compromises. I would very much like to know how you make compromises with your octaves. Also, what do you think octave stretch and inharmonicity is all about?

Regards,

My own feeling is that "close enough" is when it as good as you can hear it to be. As long as you can hear it better than anyone else can.

BDB:

OK, I guess what I would like to know is if you listen only to the beating of intervals, or do you also listen to the pitch (especially in the high treble), when deciding if a note sounds good?

Actually, Upright, the tone is positive. BDB is always right. He knows everything. A piano could never sound like a pipe organ. Pianos have no sustain. They sound like xylophones. It's a simple fact.

Good Morning, Bill!

When I tune octaves, I check one octave, two octaves; thirds, fourths, fifths; thirds, fourths, fifths plus one octave; and thirds, fourths, fifths plus two octaves. Those are enough intervals for a pretty good compromise.

It is important to have tests that check over two octaves. That avoids accumulative errors.

Thank you, BDB.

If you are doing that, BDB, I would agree that you are making a fine compromise while adjusting for inharmonicity. However, what you say can barely be used beoyond the middle of octave 5. M3s become useless beyond A4. 4ths can no longer be heard beyond F5. Octave and 4ths are useless anywhere. So, while I fully imagine that whatever you do beyond F5 must satisfy you, it is significantly sharper nuermerically than what you imagine it must be in your wildest nightmares and it probably still sounds flat to most people.

Incidentally, I tuned a rather new Bohemia upright today; a rather nice vertical piano. It had gone significantly below pitch. When I finished, after having tuned the EBVT III aurally, since I do not have a stored program for that kind of piano and using a calculated program is always disappointing, I played that long C Major arpeggio when I finished and let it ring (read "sustain", not "decay"). Before I could even ask the lady what she thought, she blurted out, "It sounds like the organ at church!"

Need I say more? If you want to hear that sound for yourself, BDB, you need only register at the PTG Anuual Convention, a short trip south for you, next week. You can even take the weekend pass because my presentation is not until Saturday, June 21 at 1:30 PM.

I discount it when people say a piano sounds like a pipe organ, because it is really meaningless. I object to such descriptions because it is impossible to mistake the sound of a pipe organ for a piano, or vice versa. There may be some characteristic of the sound that someone thinks reminds them of a pipe organ, but who knows what that is?

I also do not understand what "4ths can no longer be heard beyond F5" means. You can play G5 and C6. That is a fourth. I use fourths and fifths. as well as their octave relatives, in those areas because I can hear that they are almost beatless. You can hear that if the notes are tuned well enough. I use thirds and their relatives to make sure I am close enough to test with fourths and fifths. I will admit that sometimes it can be difficult in the top half octave or so of a piano, especially if it is a poor piano, but if I cannot hear it as bad, nobody else will either. A beginning tuner may not be as good at hearing these things as I am, but I can at least assure them that they can get better at it.

I am not saying that anyone is doing anything wrong, other than not being clear. It is just that I cannot tell for certain unless we use the language properly.

One of the reasons I like BDB’s posts is because he pays attention to how things are explained, not just what is explained. It is somewhat entertaining, but more importantly it makes me think.

I had some time the other day to play some arpeggios with the sustain pedal down and then really listen. Yes it did remind me of a pipe organ sound, but actually the sound of a pipe organ after a large chord has been released, and sound is reverberating in a large sanctuary. Both sounds are complex and decay. But like BDB says, so what? I tried different chords and noticed that some fit together as a whole better than others. Then, when checking some octaves, I could find room for improvement. This really just shows that playing arpeggios is a good check for octaves. I don’t know if Bill’s method of using equal beating intervals to set the stretch will make these arpeggios fit together better as a whole or not. Maybe not on all pianos. Maybe not for all ears. I don’t know.

But this did get me to thinking about how pipe organs are tuned and what it may indicate about human ears and inharmonicity. Are pipe organs tuned with any octave stretch? Do the upper notes tend to sound flat? Does it depend on the kind of music that is played? Or are they so helplessly out of tune, that these are moot questions?

I am by no means an expert on pipe organs, but I know a few things. There are two types of pipes, flute pipes and reed pipes. Flute pipes work like a flute or whistle. The pitch is entirely determined by the length of the pipe and the speed of the air traveling within it, which is the speed of sound. Reed pipes work like a reed instrument. The pitch is determined by the vibration of the reed, but the length of the pipe will modify it.

Flute pipes have few native harmonics. Extra harmonics are added to the sound by coupling several pipes to the same key. Reed pipes have more harmonics. As I said, all these are influenced by the length of the pipe. A given length of pipe will resonate to a fundamental and its harmonics. It depends on how many times the wave makes a half or full cycle before it gets to the end of the pipe. There is not much resistance to this vibration of the air, so inharmonicity is not going to be much. If there is any effect on the harmonics, it probably comes from the change of impedance at the end of the pipe.

The kicker is that the speed of sound changes according to the weather, and that affects the pitch. Pipe organs sort of need air conditioning to stay well in tune.

Also, the lack of resistance of the air means that the effects of coupling are greater than in a piano. Watch the video that I posted above. The same effect will occur with organ pipes, so that if you play a fifth, you might find that after the initial attack, they go pure no matter how they are tuned.

Finally, and this is just my own theory, it could be that the decay has its own effect on the harmonics. As an organ has no decay, and a piano has nothing but, this will result in a difference.

This is why we may speak of the "sustain" of a piano's tone informally, but when we are talking about these ideas, we should restrict ourselves to the formal meanings of Attack, Sustain, Decay, Release.

Also, the lack of resistance of the air means that the effects of coupling are greater than in a piano. Watch the video that I posted above. The same effect will occur with organ pipes, so that if you play a fifth, you might find that after the initial attack, they go pure no matter how they are tuned.[/b]

Hi all,

They do not necessarily go pure no matter how they are tuned. I'll explain in a minute.

Yes, a pipe organ can be tuned with stretch. For many years, my dad sold, tuned, installed, drew up blue prints and serviced pipe organs. I worked with him from age 10 until we sold that part of the business when I was 22. At one point, he had over 150 organ contracts that he serviced twice per year plus all of his piano contracts.

It has been 32 years now since we got out of that part of the business which was my decision. I did not like the 3 AM phone calls from practicing organists 150 miles away with problems like ciphers, or blower motors not working. What are they doing practicing at time of the morning anyway???

Here is some information for you.

Organ pipes are made from either wood or metal and some lead and produce sound when wind is directed through them. Because one pipe produces a single pitch, many pipes are necessary to allow the organ to sound a variety of pitches. The longer a pipe is, the lower its resulting pitch will be. The volume of the sound produced by the pipe depends on the pressure of the wind flowing to the pipe and how the pipe is voiced (adjusted by the builder to produce the desired tone and volume). Thus, the pipe's volume cannot be changed directly while playing.

Organ pipes are divided into flue pipes and reed pipes according to their design and timbre. Flue pipes produce sound by forcing air through a fipple, like a recorder, whereas reed pipes produce sound via a beating reed, like a clarinet.

When dad and I tuned an organ, we would set our temperament like any other from F-F. That was our preference.

Going up or down, we would tune in fifths, 4ths and octaves. As soon as we got up an octave, the left hand dropped down back into the temperament section again so that now we are tuning in double 5ths, 4ths and octaves. We would tune in this manner as far up as we could go until we could no longer hear it this way, completing the remaining little "tweeters" as we called them in octaves and double octaves and maybe even triple octaves.

We would check our octaves by holding 4 octaves down at once to make sure they were all in tune with themselves and with one another. Yet, they were slightly stretched all the way up and down.

With pipe organs, sometimes, the wind coming out of the pipe will directly affect the neighboring pipes depending on the height of the neighboring pipe, and how close they were to one another along with what rank you might be playing at that time. Playing 2, 4 foot or 2, 8 foot pipes simultaneously, were more likely to do this. So most of the time we would tune an 4 foot rank with an 8 foot rank of another kind unless we were setting a temperament on this rank too.

This odd change from the wind of the pipes could be very frustrating at times. We had to pay close attention that one rank was not pulling another's pitch one way or the other. So, to some degree, like the "perfect area in a piano" where you can go a bit sharp or flat and the octave will still be in tune? There is also that perfect area in a pipe organ that you can go sharp or flat of and still be in tune while holding one octave.

We would tune ranks of mixtures together often times using maybe an 8 foot Diapason or a 4 foot Octave and then, we would have fun holding down an octave of them ALL. Like say, playing an octave of 2 F's for example.. Then, we would tune all 12 mixture pipes AT ONCE using the other two pipes of the Diapason or Octave ranks which had already been tuned as our reference points, tuning all of the mixtures all together, all at once. It is not an easy task but, it sure does help the training of an ear to listen intently to such things and it does sound better when you're finished. We would do that on every organ provided we had the time (and felt like it) to do so and there weren't other problems to deal with too.

Every rank that allowed us to set a temperament including all of the reeds, oboes, trumpets etc., we tuned with a temperament, tuning the remainder of the rank in the same manner described above. Everything else in the organ was tuned to these particular ranks.

When we were finished, we had fabulous sounding pipe organs.

When I was a kid, I thought the funniest name for a rank of pipes was the " fagott pipe." It is a pipe organ rank somewhat imitative of the orchestral bassoon. Which my dad would call "the monkey pipes."

Thanks, BDB and Jerry!

I have some food for thought.

Today, I had the opportunity to ask two of my customers without providing a leading question what they heard when I played the long C major arpeggio from bottom to top and let the piano ring. I simply asked the question, "What do you hear from the piano when I do this?" (and then played the arpeggio). The answer both times was, "It sounds like an organ". When I asked if they meant "like a big pipe organ?", they both said "Yes!"

I have only called it the "pipe organ effect". Obviously, everyone knows that once a piano string is struck, the sound dies away after a short while and the sound of a vibrating string is not the same as wind through a pipe. But why does that long C major arpeggio remind me of the way a pipe organ sounds? And why does it apparently sound like that to so many others? And why do I not hear it when I use the default calculated stretch from my ETD?

It is all because I know a better way to stretch the octaves (and has nothing whatsoever do do wth voicing) than is what is taught traditionally and what is provided by a calculated stretch curve. The temperament also has much to do with it. If you've never tuned a well temperament in practice and you don't manipulate the octave stretching the way I do, you've never heard the "pipe organ effect" and probably never will.

I don't really consider that such an effect is the goal and purpose for what I do; it's merely an interesting side effect and consequence. It does, however point to the reason why I can get such remarkable clarity in my tunings. I've tuned that way for a very long time.

The results are what I intend and I get the sound I intend through very specific techniques. That is the theme of this year's PTG Annual Convention: The Intentional Technician. Those who make decisions on what presentations will be offered and what will not have taken note of what I am able to do and that's why I am on the list.

You can dismiss the idea all you want but the "pipe organ effect" will be heard on Saturday, June 21 in Anaheim, CA.

Wow, this topic suddenly became packed with gems to think about.

BDB:

When you say: “Finally, and this is just my own theory, it could be that the decay has its own effect on the harmonics. As an organ has no decay, and a piano has nothing but, this will result in a difference.” I’m guessing that you mean that the frequencies, fundamental and partial, will change due to coupling, and this coupling will change due to the amplitude, which decreases during decay. Is this anywhere close to what you mean?

Jerry:

Thanks for the hands-on description of organ tuning!

You posted: “We would check our octaves by holding 4 octaves down at once to make sure they were all in tune with themselves and with one another. Yet, they were slightly stretched all the way up and down.” Did you deliberately stretch those octaves, or did it turn out that way because they just sounded best, or ???

You also mentioned: “… the "perfect area in a piano" where you can go a bit sharp or flat and the octave will still be in tune?” I’ve known for quite a while that unisons will couple, and wondered if octaves would, also. This is the first I remember of someone mentioning it in a practical way. It also explains why sometimes I’ll tune a good sounding octave and have it fail a check. So I’ll tweak it, it will sound about the same, but then pass the check. I remember a while ago you mentioned that for concert work you tune your octaves by tuning the note to the 5th below. (At least that is what I remember.) I can see how this would prevent a coupling error. I’ll have to give it a try.

Bill:

So, when you tune in EBVT and listen to the “pipe organ effect”, do you only hear it in the C arpeggio, or in other keys also? Do you hear it on a piano tuned to ET?

Regards,

Of course we deliberately stretched our octaves to the sharp side of perfect, pushing the limit to the brink of going out but yet, still being in tune as an octave.

As you progress upwards in fourths and fifths, they should naturally progressively get faster as should the thirds and tenths. They should not remain pure and in fact, should not be pure to begin with if you're using a regular temperament like we were back then. If they remain pure or become pure as you're going up, you will not be stretching the tuning of the piano but will be tuning it flatter rather than sharper.

Yes, when doing concert work and I do a lot of it, when tuning by ear, I will tune in 10ths', 3rds, fifths, fourths, and then, double those as described above in the organ tuning method and even triple them. A piano that is not tuned with some stretch or a lot of stretch in some cases, will not sound right.

Upright, I said this earlier. I hear it up to about A Major but to a lesser degree through G, F, D, Bb, A and Eb. I rarely tune a piano in ET but when I have and have tuned it aurally, yes, I have heard the effect, to somewhat of a lesser degree, the way I have heard it in A Major in the EBVT.

So, it does have something to do both with the canceling out effect that I deliberately build into the key of C Major in the EBVT plus the way I tune out the octaves in that key. Unless you do what I do, you'll never hear it. It is quite a stunning effect but as I said, getting that effect is not the reason for tuning the way I do, it is just a bonus that puts a smile on the face of everyone who hears it.

It reminds me of the way the organ sounds in the beginning of the 4th movement of the Saint-Seans "Organ" Symphony when the when the organ suddenly blares with a loud C Major chord. The Mahler 8th symphony, the "Symphony of a 1000" (so named, because the first performance was said to have 1000 performers on stage) also begins with a loud, blaring chord in Eb.

Three years ago, I had the privilege of being one of the singers in a performance of that symphony where we had some 550 performers on stage. (Every square inch of the stage was occupied). Hearing the organ play that large Eb Major chord with multiple pipes augmenting it from the bottom of its range to the top reminded me of that particular effect I can get from the piano when I have all of the octaves and the 5ths converging so that they virtually merge with each other.

Coupling only exists between two independent tone sources. Harmonics depend on the individual waveform.

Every waveform or periodic function, in mathematical terms, can be expressed as the sum of factors of the sine wave of that period and sine waves of fractions of that period, which are the harmonics. So for the harmonics not to be exact multiples of the fundamental, the waveform cannot be exactly a periodic function. My idea is that the variance from the exact harmonics is an expression of the decay. I have not done the math to show that is the case, and there may be other factors, but it sounds reasonable.

Jerry:

I asked about the stretch because some people seem to think stretch is necessary only due to iH. I wondered if pipe organs (that apparently do not have iH) were tuned with stretch. I think stretch beyond what is necessary for iH is desired because that is how humans hear.

Thanks for the details. I wish I could watch you tune sometime.

Bill:

Sorry I missed which keys of EBVT gave the effect. Thanks for repeating them.

Best wishes for your trip to Anaheim!

BDB:

I understand some of what you mean, but the sentence "My idea is that the variance from the exact harmonics is an expression of the decay." is giving me trouble. My higher math is a little rusty. I know that something can be a function of something else, but I don't understand how something can be an expression of something else. I would like to understand what you mean. Can you give an example?

"Function" is perhaps a better term than "expression." Or maybe "a result of the decay." In turn, the decay may be related to (a function of) the elasticity of the string, which is where Young's Modulus comes in.

I had yet another customer confirm the "pipe organ" effect at my 1 PM appointment today from a Baldwin Acrosonic. When asked what does the piano sound like to you when I let this big arpeggio ring? The answer was, "It sounds like that big [pipe] organ at the Overture Center." (our large concert hall that has a million dollar pipe organ as a fixture).

Bill, when you play the arpeggio do you go right across the keyboard? I guess you'd have to hold the dampers off for the sustain then.

I press the damper pedal, so that all of the notes I play will sustain. As far as I'm concerned, that's what they do, sustain, not decay. The damper pedal is often called the "sustain" pedal and the sostenuto pedal sustains a single or group of notes; "sostenuto" means literally in Italian "sustained". I then play the long arpeggio quickly as one would in a piano concerto. I keep the damper pedal engaged as the sound gradually fades. It is during that time, after the percussion of the hammers stops that the "pipe organ" effect is heard.

I believe that as the notes on the higher end of the piano are played they continue to excite the lower strings. Being that they are tuned sharp enough that their fundamentals are approximately in tune with the upper partials of lower strings, not just an octave or two below the note being sounded but an octave and 5th, a double octave and 5th, the triple octave and triple octave and 5th, even as much as a quadruple octave, the effect is a very slow pulse where the chord itself sounds nearly beatless and the highest pitches do not clash with the lower. Instead, they tend to reinforce each other. Everything sounds so remarkably in tune. Yet, a numerical reading of the pitches will reveal from about -20 cents at C1 to +50 cents at C8.

It is important to understand that in a well temperament, the C-G 5th is tempered more than it would be in ET. But as the octaves are tuned up and down from the central "temperament" octave, the octaves and 5ths are tuned so that they beat equally. In doing so, the beats cancel each other. The beats of the C-E M3s and G-E M6s (within the range that these beats are audible) also are equal beating and these largely cancel each other, providing for an effect that sounds nearly beatless to the ear.

I remembered a way to give a piano true sustain: Don Gilmore’s self-tuning piano sustainers. Whether there would be a difference in inharmoncity from struck strings and what this might mean, I wouldn’t know. It could be a question of cause and effect. Which is the cause and which is the effect.

This reminds me of a story. A man went to a Doctor complaining of frequent flatulence. The odd thing is that there was no odor and no noise. The Doctor gave an examination, a prescription and orders to return in two weeks. When the man returned, he had the same symptoms, except now there was a stench that was unbearable. The Doctor said, “Good! We’ve cleared up your sinuses. Lets see what we can do about your hearing.”

Bill:

I read through this a number of times before I realized what bothered me. If the octaves (or double octaves) beat at the same rate of the fifths, and the fifths are tempered unequally, then the octaves are tempered unequally. It seems the temperament would become more unequal (not the same amount of wellness) towards the ends of the keyboard. Is this change of temperament deliberate, or a side effect?

That is not clear either. Fifths can be tempered wider or narrower than they would be in another temperament, but it is not clear which would be "more."

The whole statement may refer to the fact that when you tune octaves, then a fifth will beat as fast as the same fifth does to the note an octave and a fifth below it. That does not depend on the temperament.

My sustainers will cause the strings to vibrate forever, with adjustable volume, but the actual timbre of the sound is not quite the same as an actual struck note.

Because of the nature of the device, the strings have a tendency to vibrate only at their fundamental. If you listen to the string with a microphone and look at the signal on a scope, it appears essentially as a sine wave at the fundamental frequency, with no overtones. Since I'm only trying to determine a string's pitch after is has been aurally tuned, the harmonics are an unnecessary annoyance.

Don A. Gilmore
Kansas City

Bill:

Never mind, I found your explaination to Gadzar earlier in this Topic.

Thanks Upright. That is why any ETD calculated stretch works OK but it doesn't do what I do either by ear or using the direct interval approach with my SAT III. When I use the SAT III's FAC program, I don't hear the "pipe organ" effect and it is disappointing to me.

The topic of this thread is what stretch to use with the Verituner which I cannot answer but Ron Koval seemed to have some ideas. He also seemed to understand what I do and said there was no way the Verituner can handle that.

Now, I've already read and heard from any number of people long ago that what I do must be somehow "wrong" since the sizes of my octaves differ not only within the temperament octave itself (F3-F4 is a 4:2 and the A3-A4 is a 6:3; definitely a no-no for ET) but they get increasing divergent the higher and lower I tune. Of course, it is always people who never even tried that approach who say that. So, what they say doesn't deter me.

The conclusion I have is that if you use the calculated program to tune the EBVT, the results will be just fine but the difference from any of the other mild Victorian style well-temperaments such as the Coleman 11, the Broadwoods, the Moore, etc., will be virtually indistinguishable. But when you use the "Tempered Octaves" approach that I do, something very special happens with any of the versions of the EBVT. I presume I could improve the sound of those other temperaments too but none of them has the special combination of pure and tempered 5ths and deliberately equal beating intervals that the EBVT has.

By the way, I developed my approach to tuning the octaves long before I ever tuned any non-equal temperaments. When tuning ET, if the temperament is highly perfected, it results in perfectly smooth, regularly sized octaves. I use it to teach how to tune the octaves and when I direct a PTG Tuning Exam Master Tuning (but not for Octave 7 which has the 2:1 octave specification).

To answer BDB's question, perhaps I should have said, "tempered more narrowly" but as far as I am concerned, the word "narrowly" would be implied. There is no temperament in which 5ths are tempered to the wide side. Therefore, to temper "more" means "more narrowly". Meantone and Modified Meantone temperaments have wide 5ths, yes but those are not tuned deliberately wide, they are the result of tuning other 5ths more narrowly than in ET, so the result is one wide 5th in a Meantone and two wide 5ths in a Modified Meantone.