Hi to the members here;

Sorry for a sort of crosspost here (I posted on Piano Forum first); but I realized I probably should have posted these questions here instead to get an answer from the folks that know pianos inside and out.

Remember that facility I mentioned on a post awhile back.... well I think there have been music angels at work there.

A blind piano tuner came in and just tuned up the old grand piano there; and did a few repairs. It is playing nicely now; and can sing it's heart out.

I played it today and decided it is the best piano in the facility. The place is making a "truck" for it so it can be used for the upcoming Veteran's Day Festivities.

OK. The residents and I are very curious about it's age. I propped the lid to play it (yep, somebody fixed the hinge too). And found the serial #.

Here is what the piano is:
Kohler & Chase
San Fransisco
#65385
Brown Mahogany
Ivory Keys

Now.... please help me out here. I will be very grateful for any info.

How old is it?

How do I determine it's size?
How to measure it correctly?

Just looking at it, it seems to me a grand of moderate size, bigger than the Young Chang Baby Grand my chorale group has to rehearse with at a local church (I hate that Baby Grand's sound as it sounds toy like to my ear), and the pedal makes strange noises at the most inconvienient times such as when it is used to make a CD recording at a concert).

When they had a big Steinway Grand brought in for one concert (a Stravinsky work require two pianos) the Young Chang was defeated soundly of course.

Thanks for any help the members here can give me in determing the age of this piano; we at the facility are very curious and we have made some guesses by looking at the woodwork on it.

I am not feeling very well tonight (and need to get some rest and medicine in me before I throw up for the second time tonight).
I hate being sick; at least visiting the PW takes my mind off not feeling good.

BTW this piano is fun to play and the tuner did a wonderful job on it. This piano really sings despite its age also. I wish I owned it myself. It might be old but it is still able to enchant.

Take care all;thanks for any help on finding out more about the piano so I can share it with the residents there they finally can enjoy listening to the piano.

Before it was tuned the folks there have been admiring it, some would sit in there wheel chairs and admire it for long periods of time. And when I cleaned the Ivories of the decades of grime and crime last summer I wondered if the piano still had life in it when I saw the nice condition the ivories were in (it was way out of tune then). I don't think this pianos has been heavily used; and it had been kept at a constant temp and humidity.

So now things are really looking up for the pianos there at the facility; and though there is still some room for improvement I am already seeing the benefits of having tuned up comfortable playing pianos for visiting musicians to use to entertain the troops.

Thanks to all for their input last summer (I got some great advice back then) and hopefully I will get some help and advice again on this old but still a gem grand piano.

I got the answer on this Grand's age on the other board; 1910-1925.

My troops are pretty good guessers of woodwork/furniture's age.

What is the history of Kohler & Chase? Can somebody share some with myself. I don't have the Larry Fine book with me right now. I may do some internet research.

Interesting thing.... the chapel it was in was built in 1914. The Facility itself was first founded right after WWI. (95 years ago I think).

So I can see a possibility that the facility could have been the only home of the piano.
Hmmmmm? Maybe a record can be found in the system n this piano.

I plan to measure the Grand on Friday.

The piano has much local history to it; I would bet it was used for Ballrooom dances at the facility's auditorium (torn down now because it was no longer reliable should we get hit by an earthquake).

That auditorium was beautiful and had a nice stage; I miss it. Reminded me of the Rymen. Nice solid wood all over the place.Hardwood flooring and big wooden beams. Red brick on outside.

Well I finally measured the Grand...
it is a 6 footer.

It will be singing tomorrow.

BTW anyone pls. tell me if I am right to be worried about the future safety of this instrument with some local historical intrest.

Today the folks at the facility decided to move the 6 ft grand despite having no truck.

They put white disc furniture sliders under each leg and slid the piano acrossed the hallway... like a trip across the living room Some of the folks used the sliders because they worried about the floor tiles getting damaged (which got gouged the last time a staff person pushed this grand with no sliders and no truck).

But I am worried about the piano getting damaged by these kinds of moves. Are furnature slider discs sufficient in lieu of a well built grand piano truck? My instincts say no. But I want to know what the techs think of such an approach.

Do I need to show them what Larry Fine says about moving pianos and especially Grand Pianos around?

During the move they broke an end pin on the piano hinge for the portion of the lid that covers the desk. The hinge was bent also.

The long piano hinge still works as the broken pin part is about 5 inches long at the top part of the lid when it is propped up. I suspect they bumped it against something during the move. And that twisted the pin and hinge then pulled it out.

Thanks for any advice on what to say when educating some people who want to move that piano with out a piano truck. At least the folks lifted the piano when they put it onto the carpet from the tiled flooring.

OK. NOW I AM really getting worried for the safety of this old grand (it has significant historical value to the community).

Today I watched as the staff and volunteers slid it along the floor. You could see and hear at times the tension on the leg in the front as they slid the grand across the hallway under the stairway after the concert.

Both I and the facility Chaplian are very worried that this is an accident just waiting to happen. We feel we need a sturdy truck for a 6 foot grand in a large nursing facility. But not everyone at the facility is piano savvy; some folks there treat pianos like furniture.

Read that thread about the items atop pianos where I mentioned my finds on the pianos in that building.... the latest item was a hard boiled egg (AKA the humpty dumpty incident). LOL

We have limited funds and though we have a few nice pianos to play on we have some nasty ones also.

The facility has an extraordinary wood and metal shop (that was supposed to have had a truck built by today), with highly skilled craftsmen. But alas, it was not there for the concert on Vet's day as promised.

OK; I need some ideas on where to look for a truck for a 6 foot grand to be used in a large institution. Ebay? Overstock.com? Local piano stores? Place an ad in newspaper or website???

What is the usual price range for such a truck?

If the truck is to be made by the wood/metal shop isn't it better (and maybe the only good way to design one) to have a metal one or can a wooden one be made to suffice? My hunch is it would be better to get a professionally crafted welded metal truck for 6 ft grand with sturdy wheels.

I am going to be searching the web and visiting my favorite piano dealers.

Those who wish to help me on my research on getting a truck for this grand can post here or PM me also.

Thanks for any help the board members can give me.

Very little information about Kohler & Chase on the net. Just a note that it is a quality piano and worth restoring. But that is, as you know, only an opinion. Get a technician to evaluate it and give you sound advice.

Thanks Chat Noir.

It sounded beautiful today; nice fit for the chorale group and a very talented director/ accompianist.

You know the Floor gouging incident is a serious red flag I think.... that gouge must mean the leg that gouged the tile was subjected to resistance from the floor and at least that time the tile lost but at what cost to the pianos leg.

I would love to see this grand restored with new strings and whatever else tat may be needed; it wasn't too heavily played and its action is wonderful and comfortable. It has so much serious local history linked to it; plus despite its age it is a nice instrument to listen to and play.

I am going to email the staff and pass them the info that I am very concerned that the piano is at risk by moving the grand in the manner it is being moved right now. I sense they are playing with fire. I am praying the facility gets that truck soon, before our luck runs out.

I see in Larry Fines book that you can also buy three wheeled casters in lieu of a big truck.
Does anyone know if that would be amore affordable option for this now at risk 6 foot grand.

Even that option looks safer than cheap tiny white furnature sliders under each leg.

I am going to post them ASAP on this issue.

Thanks again;
Chat Noir

and all who have posted on this thread.

The cheapest option for moving across floors are rubber wheeled casters. After that come the triple casters, which are a cup with three casters on the perimeter for each leg. Then come the piano trucks, or the heavy ball-bearing casters.

Kohler & Chase was a music store in San Francisco. They sold their own stencil pianos.

Thanks BDB;

So what is your opinion on restoring such a stencil piano?

How much money on avg. would the facility be looking at to at least get some 3 wheel castors on it?

And how would the castors be installed safely?
Is this a job for a piano tech?

I can't sleep easily tonight; I am really worried about the piano's risk of being damaged during one of the moves--- especially with the holidays fast approaching.

Rubber casters are about $50, the three wheel ones are three times that, and the piano truck is three times that, roughly. The piano truck is the most secure, but not good if you ever have to lift the piano on a stage or something like that. The others are not as good over rough surfaces, and you have to make sure that the legs are secure. You need someone who knows how to install them, no matter what you choose.

I couldn't advise on restoring this piano without seeing it. Any such work depends on the person doing it more than any other factor, anyway.

Thanks BDB:
This is good info that I need to share... ASAP.
The Chaplain hired the tuner (I will have to ask him if the tuner was a tech... and what he might have reported to him when the piano got tuned.

I do know the strings might need changing as there is a little rust on them in some areas.
Can't chect the strings near the pins yet and I need to wipe off the grime atop them. I have heard rusty strings tend to break easier than newer ones in better condition.

I will pass on the info on these options and the "estimate" on costs to the powers that be.

I could use some nice picture of grands set up on these "piano moving acessories". Unfortunately my computer is slow as I am on dial up with a very old computer to boot. (Sometimes I think I am destined to play and work on old equipment be it pianos and computers LOL).

Can any one find me a few good links directly to some pictures? The piano picture thread at PW always loads so slowly for me here. But I do remember seeing somebody's new grand shown on red carpet with the three wheel set up being posted recently. And maybe a picture of the other piano moving equipment options.

BDB Thanks for sharing the info on getting a piano tech to get the piano set up safely also.

I already sent an email to the staff with a warning about the piano moves being a risk to the piano and not just the floor tiles.


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BDB wrote:
Rubber casters are about $50, the three wheel ones are three times that, and the piano truck is three times that, roughly. The piano truck is the most secure, but not good if you ever have to lift the piano on a stage or something like that. The others are not as good over rough surfaces, and you have to make sure that the legs are secure. You need someone who knows how to install them, no matter what you choose.

I couldn't advise on restoring this piano without seeing it. Any such work depends on the person doing it more than any other factor, anyway.

Anyone here who wishes to help me on this matter can also PM me if they would prefer to reply privately on this instead of onto the thread.

I think it is a possibility that the the Piano Tech Guild could someday do such a project as a worthy pro bono project due to its historical value at this facility/community. The facility was founded after WW1 (1910) and the Chapel there was founded (1914). The piano is of that era (sometime between 1910-1925).

This old piano can still sing. It sang beautifully for the troops at the veteran's day ceremony and concert yesterday. The visiting classically trained pianist/chorale director loved it.
Again thanks to all for their input.

I called my favorite local piano dealer to ask if they might have some piano moving acessories (truck or 3 wheel castors ?) from all the trade ins they get, that are still quite usable for the facility. Maybe they do so much business and have their own shop downstairs.

Who knows maybe I can get a good deal for this deserving facility and it's residents... maybe a donation even.

I thought it was worth a try.

Anyone who believes in the power of prayer please pray for the troops at the facility; pray that they might get something to help keep their cherished old grand healthy through many frequent moves about the room. Because maybe we could use divine intervention here.

Thanks for all the help so far. The input is very helpful for myself who is on this mission to protect and to serve the best piano in the facility.

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Notice;
Forgive my typos when you see them; I am sick and my computer here being really slow as it is a vintage instrument also.
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