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I am a beginner in the business currently about 1/2 way through a 12 week classroom course. I intend to learn to tune aurally but also intend to keep current with technology as well. I believe that to rely 100% on either method will work to you detriment. With technology increasing exponentionally, it is only prudent to use it to your advantage.

I currently have a Pocket PC and therefore will likely go with the software platform instead of the dedicated hardware platform. I have read many of the posts on the various products but most seem from a few years ago. I assume all of have improved since then and was wondering what people’s thoughts/experiences have been using any of these products. The three I seem to read about most are Verituner, CyberTuner and TuneLab. The first 2 are about $900 and TuneLab is only $340.

I have downloaded the trial version of TuneLab but have now hit the built in time delay feature. TuneLab seems pretty comprehensive so I wonder what the others have that would make it almost triple the price.

I look forward to any and all comments.

Don

I personally do not believe that tuning 100% aurally is a detriment. Tuning to me is an art, it takes years to learn and it can stay very separate from technology and I would be happy.
Conversely, piano builders hardly keep up with technology except to make em faster and more consistent. Little technology is used to make em better or different. (there are some exceptions)
I would use tune lab - the only reason I say that is that many of my colleagues do and they like it - plus, as you say it is inexpensive.

I downloaded TubeLab trial version and just used it the first time a couple days ago. I like it!

I use tunelab and love it, ive also used reyburn and the extra cost isn't justified. Tunelab is easy to get the hang of and the pitch raise feature is outstanding. It saves alot of time and generally when im done with a pitch raise I only have to touch up a few notes. If you have any other questions please ask, Ill gladly give my opinion on the deferent ETDs out there but definetly for the money tunelab is a bargain. Im not sure what kinda pda you are using I have an IPAQ and it generally lasts 9 hours before needing recharged.

Scutch,

I certainly agree tuning is an art, one that can only be learned with experience. My thought is though that as our population ages, those who follow us - the younger generation - won't appreciate 'art of tuning' nearly as much - they are growing up in a digital age. It won't matter to most that the piano is still an analog machine. That is why I want to be able to keep up with the technology and use it where I can, as well as learn the art.

Don

I've used TuneLab for two years, and its pitch raise feature is indeed great. It even has a special feature to score a tuning exam. Its user interface is clean, and the spectrum display lets you pitch raise without muting at all. I can do a better job of fine tuning by ear, but the pitch raise is a moneymaker.

RCT has more features and flexibility, but in my opinion not worth triple the price. Verituner now has a software version as well, which I'm just now testing. It's supposed to give great results. Again, since I don't use the fine tuning feature, I wouldn't pay the extra price.

--Cy--

As others have said, the pitch raise feature of Tunelab is great. It's also useful when tuning in noisy places. As Scutch stated, aural tuning is an art, and an ETD is best used to pitch raise and rough tune a piano, and doing the fine tuning aurally. Doing so will help your ears from getting tired when tuning a lot of pianos in one day.

I've used Tunelab Pocket for over 3 years, and like Cy and Curry, I use it mostly for pitch adjustment. I also use it for setting a temperament when I'm in a hurry or if the instrument in question is a Piano Shaped Object. It has paid for itself probably 100 times over.

Knowing how to tune aurally is essential, even if you tune primarily with an ETD. I've had various disasters--like when it fell out of my shop apron into the toilet--with my IPAQ where I was unable to use it. Because I'm primarily an aural tuner, it ended up being more of an inconvenience in terms of lost calendar, contacts and map program than because of lost Tunelab.

I have not used the other tuning software available for pocket PC, so I will offer no comment on their values relative to Tunelab.

I'd like to mention that Robert Scott, who invented Tunelab, offers great tech support!

All of the software options will go a long way toward giving your ears and body a break by helping with the pitch adjustment. They all work best when used as in partnership with your ears. Your ears are still the best at discerning "better" or "worse".... as in deciding just where those octaves need to be to give the most pleasing sound.

I'm going to buck the trend here and say that learning to tune the temperament aurally is a poor use of time for a beginning tuner. Stability, unisons, and setting the overall stretch of the piano is more appreciated by the client than any presumed benefit of an aural approach to the temperament octave over the electronic approach.

That being said, (flame-suit firmly zipped) the Verituner is the most advanced approach at this time. It requires a pretty quick processor, or overclocking to get the most out of the box. The combination of your ears, the customizing functions, and the amount of partial information is tough to beat.... by any means.

Ron Koval

I agree the verituner is the best on the market right now but it also costs 4 times what the tunelab does. Of course as most electronics go, there will probably be something new and better in a few years. I'm still waiting for a machine I just plug in and it turns the tuning pins and everything but then us techs might be out of work

Thanks for all the input everyone.......what I am hearing is that most all seem to agree ETD devices are a net positive for the industry but a person certainly doesn't want to rely on them exclusively. Aural tuning is still key and someone new must learn how to tune without one or they are not going to make a go of it.

As for particular devices, I get the impression the TuneLab is very good and for a beginner who needs to watch expenses a bit, it is a very good one with which to start. I am going to wait a few weeks until I get closer to the end of the course I buy so I will keep my eye out for further posts...........thanks again to all.

Don

The Chinese have such a machine, but they forget to plug it in!!! Will Tune lab set a decent temperament on any piano without needing aural tweeking? How about verituner?.

Did we miss the qrs self tuning piano?
My experience was that it was much easier to learn to hear where the note/s should be as I was learning to tune. Stability took much longer and is more difficult.
Does anyone tune equal temperament in China?

Interesting posts...I have a question though about ETD's.....Why does one need to be able to tune aurally? The reason I ask this is because I do not know how to tune aurally....I can not set tempermant etc...the only thing I can do by ear is tune unisons. The ETD I have allows me to tune my grand perfectly....there were only about 30 of these ETD's made. In fact, because of this ETD, I have learned to hear the out of tune unisons and are now able to correct them. My ETD has about 10 different pre-installed streched/scales that were compiled from aural tunings of several brands of pianos. These scales correspond to the type of piano your are tuning, concert grand, grand, upright etc. I have tuned my grand piano and it sounds great. There are few times when the ETD says the string is in tune, it is not, and that is where I can tune the unison by ear, and it's fine....that's all I can do aurally.

I suspect what you are referring to is the fact that the pre-installed streches in my ETD may not match perfectly with every piano and therefore would need to be tweaked aurally to get the best sound?

GP

My initial reason for tuning aurally was because it is cheap and you do not have to carry around extra equipment.
My second reason for tuning aurally is that ETDs are a pain to use.
My third reason for tuning aurally is that I do not trust ETDs, having heard electronic instruments that are not tuned as well as I can tune by ear.
My fourth reason for tuning aurally is that I can explain exactly what I am hearing that tells me that a piano is tuned properly, while I could not verify that what the ETD is doing has the slightest relationship to the sounds that the piano is making, because I understand sound, not somebody else's electronics.
My fifth reason for tuning aurally is that listening is what tuning is all about; if you do not listen, you might as well be in some other business.
My sixth reason for tuning aurally is that you have to keep your ear in shape for all the other things you may need to do to a piano.
My seventh reason for tuning aurally is that pianos may change their harmonic composition due to changes in voicing due to wear or humidity changes, so whatever you did last time may not be valid this time.
My eighth reason for tuning aurally is that different samples of the same model piano may not be the same, especially if I have restrung them, so somebody else's scales may not correspond to the ones stored in the ETD.
My ninth reason for tuning aurally is that it has developed my ear so that when I hear someone who does something exceptional intonation-wise, I can really appreciate it. Examples are Edgar Meyers's bass and just the other night, Jason Marsalis's drums.

All of them do a decent job (depending on your standards!). You do need to spend some time learning how to use each one, especially in how to measure inharmonicity precisely. You also must specify what octave style you want (4:2, 6:3, and so on), so you need to understand what that means, and also possibly tweak the tuning curve. And you have to be able to hear when, occasionally, the result is bad, and fix it. For me, this has been on the wound/plain transitions of short pianos. TuneLab has a special feature for spinets and other scales with an abrupt transition.

They're power tools: no one cuts a 2x4 with a hand saw these days, but you need to learn how to use a hand saw before you fire up the circular saw. For pitch raises, and for noisy environments, they're a big help.

But my understanding of tuning and skills overall have increased dramatically since I learned aural tuning.

--Cy--

I posted this early on, so it may have been missed. Possibility of equipment failure is one big reason.

In order to really know what a piano is supposed to sound like, one should understand how to tune aurally.

Grandpianoman, I assume you are using a Peterson Autostrobe 490. The Peterson is inferior to the newer ETD's as it does'nt sample the piano's inharmonicity. The Tunelab and other ETD's, samples each piano's inharmonicity, and provides a custom stretch for that piano.

The Self-Tuning Piano will be out soon, but it will not be manufactured by QRS. QRS just has too many irons in the fire and never has got around to implementing the project...so I fired them. I am currently negotiating a deal with another piano manufacturer (I guarantee you have heard of them).

Its tuning is not based on equal temperament or any other prescribed or calculated formula. It is simply an actual hand tuning for that piano that has been "stored" in memory. There will also be a built-in feature that allows a tech to tune the piano and store this new tuning for subsequent duplication by the system.

Don A. Gilmore
Kansas City

Hi Curry,

It's not a Peterson...I tried that one but did not like the spining dial, too complicated. The one I have is not made any more...there were only about 30 of them made by this fellow. It does not have the abiltiy to sample each individul piano as the Tunelab, Veritune and the Cybertuner can do, so I know I am limited by that, but, it does do a very creditable job never the less. I think a good aural tuner after hearing my tuned grand would be impressed, and I would not be embarassed.
Btw, I am a professional musician, so I have a good set of ears and am very critical about an out of tune piano, especially my own.

I realize that this ETD does not use the conventional way to tune, although it does base it 's pre-set tunings on conventional aural tunnings, which of course used the "beat" method. It actually measures the vibrational frequency of the string with a magnetic pickup, not the sound, and then computes the correct strectch to a precise set of mathematical curves..... you can also use the mic supplied with it to tune that way. It can also tune harpsichords.

For me it's been a godsend, as I had no clue how to tune arually and never thought I could tune a piano until this device came along. The 4 led lights that sequence up for sharp and down for flat, are so much eaiser to use...and much less complicated than say for instance, the Sanderson, with it's circle of led's.

GP

I Share BDB's nine reasons for tuning by ear. I wonder if ETD users have a highly developed ear that will instantly pick out tuning errors.

I don't know about other ETD users but I am constantly duing "checks" on the notes to insure accuracy. If my ETD is much off of what my ear is hearing on more than a couple notes it gets turned off and put in my bag. I guess im trying to say my ears arnt getting "lazy" becouse of using an ETD.

I have a Sanderson Accutuner serial #300

Had it since the early 80's

Always good for getting to pitch across the piano.

Final dose of work by ear at the end.

It does do some of the "heavy lifting" and certainly let's me save my energy for final work.

I suppose if someone relies too much on their ETD, they can be let down from time to time.

It is fairly accepted that "ears" are 30% of the job.

Experience at hammer technique and pin setting is about 70% of the job.

These may be debatable numbers, but I think they are close enough.

In the end, I agree with everyone here in that it is wise to have good aural skills.

No argument there gents....but for a layperson who does not know how to tune aurally, my ETD is a miracle.

GP

My understanding of the Verituner is that it samples the notes as you tune. It also listens to multiple partials. This really makes it different from the other ETD's. They aren't making adjustments to the tuning as you tune.
I use Tunelab Pocket. It does a nice job. Lately I have been tuning aurally most of the time, but sometimes it's the other way around.

I like the point about hammer technique and setting the pins. I would rather have a tuning that is less accurate, but stable, than a highly accurate tuning that is not stable.

The difference in ETD's is more evident on poorly scaled pianos, isn't it? Just about any of the major ETD's will do a nice job on a concert grand. It's on the Baldwin Hamiltons, etc, that there will be more of a difference. We could have a whole 'nother argument about what constitutes a well-scaled piano, I guess.

Roy,

Good point about piano scaling...It's a real pleasure to aurally tune a nice grand piano. ON the other hand, it's a real pleasure to have an ETD and earplugs when tuning a '70s era Aeolian spinet piano!

Yeah. Tuning can be enjoyable....or not. If not, the machine is there . I really appreciate the Pocket PC format. It's easy to take along, and has so many uses.

It's a pleasure to have earplugs when PLAYING a '70s era Aeolian as well! I just downloaded Tunelab and used it to tune a Kawai console. It did an acceptable job - the fifths were a bit looser than I like. It seemed to do a good job in the bass, which I found to be a bit tough for accutuners (probably because the FAC doesn't sample the bass). I can't wait to try out the overpull program.

Overpull is awesome. Use "measure every note", and tell it the wound/plain break (so you don't overpull wound strings by too much). Use the "previous 7 note history", and set the time delay to 4 or 5 seconds.

Measure D#1 (don't tune it), then measure D1, and on down to A0. This gives you a history to start with.

Now, the kicker: set your note switching option to "Timed Up". Measure A0 and tune. Keep playing A0. As long as it hears it, it will stay on that note. When you're done tuning, just stop playing, and it will switch to A#0. When you play the note, it measures it, and stays there 'til you stop.

You can go through the whole first pass this way without touching the computer -- and without using mutes! (Use the spectrum display to see the individual peaks for bi- and trichords.) If it gets ahead of you, or miss a measurement, just switch up or down a note and back again to trigger the measurement again. Space bar or clicking the note name pauses the timed switch.

It's one of TuneLab's best features, to me.

I also like the "automatic partial switching" in the bass. It defaults to A0; try it up to E2. You know when you first play A0, and get no reading at all? This fixes that; it will automatically change to the loudest partial.

--Cy--

Fascinating thread. I see Tunelab now has a version that will run on a mobile phone.

I did look seriously at DIY piano tuning. But decided it was idiotic when techs are such good value, with the added bonus that they actaully know what they are doing.

Adrian

Thanks for the tips, Cy. I did have trouble getting it to auto change to the correct note at both ends of the piano. I got fed up with 20 min aural pitch raises, so I've been doing a 4 min blind pitch raise. Quick but not as accurate as I'd like. The Tunelab overpull followed by an aural tuning might be the ticket for me.

Tunelab's timed switching is valuable when you have a piano that is so flat that the next note up won't change the display. I agree that it's a good way to go. However, I don't use the overpull function in these situations. I use the auto-note switching, and just rip through and pull it a little sharp. I guess. Having to wait for the overpull measurement slows the process down. In these situations, I'm going to have to tune it again anyways. Not using a mute, you can get through the piano very quickly.

I find the overpull function most useful when the piano is maybe 10-15cents flat. Enough that you need to pull it sharp and let it settle, but not so much that you will need go through the piano a second time. Often, it will fall close enough that you can just touchup unisons and be done.

Has anyone here used both the dedicated Veritune 100 and the Veritune Pocket PC version ? If so, how do they compare ?

Using pre-installed stretches is like buying clothes ready-made in small, medium, and large. The fit is inexact, and would probably not pass the standards aural tuners must meet to pass the PTG tuning exams.

The biggest reason to learn to tune aurally is to know when your ETD isn't working well on a particular piano. As others have said, this usually happens on a poorly-scaled small piano. You also need to understand the difference between 2:1 and 4:2 octaves and so on, which you must choose yourself in most ETDs.

--Cy--

Let's see...
The dedicated "box" is bigger and heavier due to a battery meant to last through the longest day of tuning. At this time, the box has more "goodies" - I think everything is supposed to be ported over to the pocket version in time. Right now, the spectrum screen is only in the box. I'm running a pocket unit with 624Mhz speed - it seems to keep up with the box just fine. The interface for file management and style creation is smoother and easier in the pocket environment.

Bottom line? You should be able to get similar results from either platform. Size and battery life are considerations that may influence your choice. I do prefer the software option because I smoooooshed one pocket unit, and was able to get up and running quickly after getting another inexpensive used one from Craigslist.org.

Ron Koval

What you are saying Cy makes sense. My limited production ETD stretched scales that are in the memory chip were derived from various aural tunings on several Tier 1 grands, M&H BB, Steiway, Yamaha. I am anxious to try it out on my M&H RBB when it arrives. At the moment, it works well with my 1916 M&H A, which of course is a well designed piano. After I have tuned it, it sounds good enough that I don't feel the need to call in a pro tuner to "fix" it.

The Verituner sounds like it would be the best of both worlds. Has anyone had good luck with the latest Sanderson III? From my perspective, I would be relying totaly on the ETD for the everything.

GP

Instead of $1300 for an SAT III, you could have about a dozen years of professional annual tunings...

Yes, the SAT III and Verituner are both top-of-the-line ETDs. They both require fairly advanced knowledge of tuning in order to get the best results. Unisons should still be tuned by ear, in my view.

Have you tested your stability? Tune a single string, then play three loud blows and measure again. The electronic boxes can't do everything...

--Cy--

When I said I would be relying on the ETD for everything, I meant as far as setting the correct stretch, temperment etc, not hammer technique.

From what I have learned from several pro tuners, I actually 'bang' the note pretty hard several times while I am dropping the pitch down from the + side. That seems to set the string pretty well.

Unisons I can now tune by ear, thanks to working with this ETD. I can also tell if 4ths, 5ths, and octaves are out of tune, all because of my working with my ETD. My weakness is probably pin setting. I would like to learn more about that.

Cy, If one were to rely only on an ETD such as the Veritune or Sanderson, and not make any corrections aurally other than to clean up unisons, couldn't one tune a piano and have it come out almost perfect, given the way these 2 units sample the inharmonicty and the way they calulate a stretched tunning? If the answer is no, what is then the "fairly advanced knowledge of tunning" one would need to use either of these 2 units to obtain a respectable result?

GP

A ETD is only a tool, the same as a person's ears. As with any tool, it takes experience to use it well. There is no perfect tuning - machine or aural. We all get as close as we can, given the circumstances.

Understood Bob, but it does not answer my question. Let me phrase it this way....If there is a need for a "fairly advanced knowledge of tuning" to use these 2 ETD's, what is that knowledge comprised of?

Is it possible, if one has a basic understanding of pin setting/hammer techique, to use either of these, the Veritune or Sanderson III, and be able to tune the piano to a respectable level, so that if say a professional tuner would hear it, he would would not feel the need to correct it or re tune the piano?

Thanks,

GP

You'd need to be able to tell when you're not getting a respectable result, for one. Are the double octaves beating too much? Is the inharmonicity of this piano so high that sampling only three notes (as the SAT does) throws off the calculated tuning? Did you sample inharmonicity well enough? (Often you have to take three or four readings to get a good average.) What's the current pitch of your piano? Do you need to do a preliminary pitch raise pass, or is it close enough to fine-tune?

Other special knowledge you need is to choose the right overall "stretch" value for your particular piano, as well as the other options that each ETD offers. See the SAT manual as an example:
http://www.accu-tuner.com/manualmain.html

I've been in your situation, relying exclusively on an ETD when I first began tuning. There would often be a piano that just didn't come out right, and I was helpless to fix it. Plus, I wanted to be the best professional tuner I can be, so I learned aural tuning. It's also allowed me to take full advantage of my ETD (which I still use, for pitch-raising).

Unfortunately, there are tuners out there who rely completely on their ETDs (or even guitar tuners or pitch pipes to set the temperament). I expect high standards of people who tune for money.

Your situation is different, as I recall. If you have a well-scaled piano, and just want to tune it yourself, you may very well like the results you get with any ETD. But again, why spend all that money on an ETD when you could have a pro do it for less? Moving the pins around a lot does put wear on the pinblock; a professional will likely make smaller movements.

I have no problem showing people how to touch up unisons between tunings, if I think they can do it without damaging their instrument. That's what often annoys people the most. But a good, stable tuning takes lots of training, even with an ETD.

You've come this far; why not sit in at a meeting of your local PTG and learn more? It's really fascinating...

--Cy--

GP, think of it this way....

The SAT is technology from the 80's. The SAT III is souped-up, for sure, but it is still based on the models developed early-on for electronic tuning gear.

Can you get respectable results with it? Of course. Does it respond well to the broadest range of situations? It depends what you mean by "responds well". Can you follow-up a tuning, or save a "master's tuning" to be repeated later? Sure, I've known people that do that. Will it provide the best tuning for your instrument? I doubt it.

It is a new century, go with the modern gear.

Ron Koval

Cy, thanks for the explanation. I do want to expand my knowledge of tuning so I will definetly try and sit in on a ptg meeting or take some lessons from a pro tuner. Working with the ETD I have now has been a rewarding experience and have enjoyed being able to keep my own piano in tune.

Ron, thanks, and when I do eventually decide to upgrade, I will take a serious look at the Veritune. Since I will be working only with my own M&H BB, I am going to see how well my ETD does with it before I buy another one. One of the 10 or so pre-loaded tunings in there were based on a M&H BB, so it should be interesting to see how well it does on mine.

GP

I've been experiementing with TuneLab for 3 weeks after tuning aurally for 25 years. Of 20 EDT tunings, I was happy with maybe 8. Some of this is inexperience using an ETD, I'm sure. I am least happy with the bass which sounds funky to me, even though Tunelab samples bass notes. I am most happy with the temperment octave. The treble is sometimes very nice, sometimes not. My tuning standards are high, and perhaps I hear issues that the average customer might not. I want to be able to play nice arpeggios in any key the length of the keyboard and have them all sound nice and even. I'm not yet achieving that with an ETD.

Bob,

Try sampling A1, A2, A3, A4, A5, A6. This avoids wound strings at the break. Make sure you listen to just one string. Take at least three samples per string, soft and loud, and discard any out-of-bound readings. I put the microphone within a foot of the string in the treble.

Editing the tuning curve, try 6:3 octaves in the bass and 4:2 in the treble. Tweak the deviation curve until it's as flat in the middle as you can get it. This represents how TuneLab is "feathering" the changes in octave style between bass and treble: the number of cents difference from the beatless octave you specified. This is just like "extending the temperament" down and up through the midrange.

A nice feature is to let TuneLab switch to the loudest partial it hears in the bass, especially for small pianos. You can specify the highest note to automatically switch partials. It defaults to A0, which turns it off.

There's a TuneLab mailing list with lots of advice available:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TuneLab_Users

There are many strategies for using it. The pitch raise feature is priceless, in my opinion.

What style of treble do you like: pure single octaves, twelfths, double octaves?

--Cy--

I've been using Tunelab for about 5 months after tuning aurally for 7 years. At first I ran into problems with the battery on my IPAQ not lasting through the day. Then I bought a car charger off ebay for $9 shipping included. I just plug this into the cigarette lighter between tunings or on my lunch break. I find Tunelab to be very helpful also on pitch raises.

Thanks, Cy. I was sampling C's because they said to in the manual. I just turned on the auto partial as well, set for E2 to partial 7. That's got to help in the bass, I'd imagine.

When you say the deviation curve should be flat in the middle, do you mean the top stretch curve, or the lower curve?

BTW my Std battery on the Dell X51 V seems to last though the day - I charge it for about an hour each night. (I tune 4-5 a day, but Tunelab isn't on for the entire tuning) Dell also has an extended life battery for about $100, which I don't think I'll need to buy.



My octaves on aural tunings depend on the piano, because I balance the octaves and the corresponding fifth - both as pure as I can get them.

The top curve is the actual pitch of each note, plotted against a zero line of the mathematical values for a mythical piano with zero inharmonicity.

I was referring to the bottom curve, which is how far away from beatless TuneLab has put each individual note, as it transitions from the bass octave style to the treble. On most pianos, you can keep the highest deviation below five or seven cents (on some, below three cents).

This is the power of being able to model the tuning before you do it. If 6:3 bass, 4:2 treble doesn't work, try 6:3 and 3:1, or another combo. This was a lifesaver for me when I had to tune three pianos together for a concert...

--Cy--

Just went to my first PTG meeting in years. The demo was pitch raising using Cyber tuner. After one pass (30 minutes ) that piano was at pitch and ready for a final tuning. Any comment on how this program rates against the Tunelab or others? Does the pocket version contain the same features as the lap top version?

RCT has a few more features than TuneLab: you can set the octave style for each octave of the piano, instead of just bass and treble options in TuneLab, and so forth. RCT gives you better guidance about measuring a piano initially.

I prefer TuneLab. It's kind of a personal preference, like tuning levers. It also does a great job of one-pass pitch raises, and you don't need mutes at all (nor do you for RCT, but I like TL's display better in this situation). And it's timed note switching means you don't have to manually switch up to the next note, even if the piano's 100 cents flat. Lastly, it's a third of the price.

Yes, the pocket version of TuneLab has the same features as the laptop version. Unlike RCT, you can try out both versions, and the documentation is downloadable, too.

I suggest actually using each program to tune an octave in the bass, midrange, and high treble, to see how it feels for you. You'll spend a long time staring at that display... Verituner has a Pocket PC version out now, too. Links to all these are on my site (see Tech Links).

--Cy--