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#646494 - 09/22/06 02:12 AM Temperament, maybe, and minor keys
TimR Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 1810
Loc: Virginia, USA
This may have nothing to do with temperament, and it was on a digital, so I apologize if I'm in the wrong forum, but it might fit.

I spent an hour playing exclusively minor chords last night - weird hymn the pastor picked for this Sunday.

The longer I played the more dissatisfied I got with the tuning of the chords. But when I switched to major it sounded fine to my ears. Whatever temperament Yamaha copied for the digital seemed pretty good sounding on major but either bad on minor, or something else is going on. (ears are going bad, or good, or something)

Any thoughts? Do you run into this kind of thing with acoustics as well? I haven't tried one yet on this piece, I will shortly, but in this area most acoustics have been maintained so poorly I'm not sure I'll be able to tell.
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#646495 - 09/22/06 10:22 AM Re: Temperament, maybe, and minor keys
Cy Shuster, RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/18/05
Posts: 3334
Loc: Albuquerque, NM
Many digitals have the ability to switch between modern tuning and various older ones, which can be very interesting to play with. In your case, try turning it off and back on again, to reset any changes that might have been made.

The Clavinovas with the large LED screen have different stored tunings. Press the "Function" button, then look for tunings. Many of them will be generally unusable ("Pythagorean", "Meantone"), but try the Werckmeister or Kirnberger.

The more sharps and flats you have in the key signature, the more "tension" or "color" you'll hear in the chords.

--Cy--
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#646496 - 09/22/06 03:42 PM Re: Temperament, maybe, and minor keys
Supply Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 2704
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
One big selling feature of digital keyboards (please don't call them pianos) is that they "never need tuning". To which I respond : "They can't be tuned".

A number of keyboards I have checked are actually out of tune! The beats of the thirds do not progress as they should. As well, there were some wobbly "unisons".
So, needless to say,
A) The instrument sound is somewhat out of tune.
B) Playing in different keys will sound different.
C) It is not fixable.


Perhaps the designers found that by reproducing an out of tune piano sound, it would sound more natural to the human ear?

Just guessing
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#646497 - 09/23/06 08:02 PM Re: Temperament, maybe, and minor keys
Bob Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 3394
Loc: Orlando FL
Yep, my Yamaha P-90 has a couple of wild 5ths in the temperament.
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#646498 - 09/25/06 02:29 AM Re: Temperament, maybe, and minor keys
TimR Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 1810
Loc: Virginia, USA
I tried four pianos - none were in tune in enough to tell.

The church organ sounded really good on those chords. It is a digital too (Allen ADC-1000).

So, I dunno.
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#646499 - 09/25/06 01:49 PM Re: Temperament, maybe, and minor keys
Palindrome Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/22/01
Posts: 3858
Loc: Chicago, IL USA
This is a very interesting question - how accurate are the supposedly equal temperaments on electronic keyboards? This admits of an experimental determination, i.e., measure the tonal frequencies with a frequency meter.

Another question - since true equal temperment is really a 20th century practice*, should we be playing 18th and 19th century composers using this temperament? Some discs approach the problem:

Beethoven in the Temperaments

Six Degrees of Tonality

New information on the question of JSB's temperament (the answer to which seems to have been right in front of us for years) is given at:

http://www.larips.com "Larips" is "spiral" spelled backwards.

*Mathematically, equal temperament was known as a possibility in the occidental world in 1636, the equations having been worked out by Father Mersenne. It seems to have been known earlier in China. It does not seem, however, that anyone before the late 19th century or early 20th century actually tuned in such a temperament (cf. Owen H. Jorgensen, Tuning: Containing the Perfection of Eighteenth-Century Temperament, the Lost Art of Nineteenth-Century Temperment and the Science of Equal Temperment, introduction. Much to my astonishment, I find that this book, which cost me $35 or so, now sells for $950+ on the used book market.)
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There is no end of learning. -Robert Schumann Rules for Young Musicians

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#646500 - 09/25/06 01:56 PM Re: Temperament, maybe, and minor keys
Cy Shuster, RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/18/05
Posts: 3334
Loc: Albuquerque, NM
I enjoy Bach and Beethoven in some of the milder well temperaments such as Moore and Valloti. I often use them on smaller pianos, too; makes them come alive a little more.

--Cy--
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Cy Shuster, RPT
505-265-4234
www.shusterpiano.com
www.facebook.com/shusterpiano
Albuquerque, New Mexico

Registered Piano Technician
Dampp-Chaser Certified Installer
PianoDisc Certified Service Technician

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