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rick wrote: "Incredible. You can't make this stuff up."

and you still can't read.

i said lisa might consider using these methods as a last resort. that is not the same thing as saying that "the" purpose of those methods is for a last resort.

sheesh.

lisa,
like with anything, use your best judgment. take what works from what any of us suggest here, and forget the rest.

i wish you luck with your piano. please do post here the outcome. and i hope rick baldassin can either help you or send you to someone who can.

If I remember correctly, the one who is "writing the book" is Pique. Not from any personal experience she herself has on the subject, but as she once argued to me, and has said again here, "she has talked to lots of techs".

Rick couldn't be more accurate. Pique, who is not a technician, and who has never voiced a set of hammers herself, has presented herself in this thread as an "expert". She has stated in the past that she is writing a book on pianos, and has a publisher lined up. Could Pique be using this forum to "boost her resume" in preparation for making the claim that she "participates in technical discussions" as a "recognized expert"? I sure hope not, because she isn't qualified to speak with the slightest bit of authority regarding technical matters, and has absolutely no expertise in technical matters regarding pianos.

Lisa, you and anyone else having questions regarding hammer voicing should listen to the technicians on this forum such as Rick, Keith, Brian, and the others here who have identified themselves as technicians - not piano players who have appointed themselves "experts" and are in the process of writing a book. This is where lots of bad information ends up in the public arena. We have enough piano books written by the unqualified to contend with as it is.

Go to the ptg web site at www.ptg.prg and try to locate a technician experienced in voicing that can help you out. Any type of treatment to the hammers is destructive in the long run. If voicing is done improperly you can destroy the hammers very quickly. A good voicer can use a combination of needling, lacquers, steam to tweak hammers but again there is a point where the hammers may need replacement. Hammer replacement may be done in the shop but the final fitting and regulation needs to be done in the piano. Voicing also needs to be done in the piano because the effects need to be tested out and then matched on every hammer so the tone is even.

Sometimes just a light refiling/sanding and/or shaping of the hammers to restore the strike point can help because new felt is exposed to the strings. Has this ever been done ? How flat are the hammers ? How much string grooving is there ?

Eisenhower said, "the hardest lesson to learn in life is that even complete idiots are right sometimes".

I sometimes take "pot shots". at a question based on things I have read in my studies. I look at the other posts and if there is an angle that appears to have been forgotten in the considerations, I add my post. In a way, a basic researcher of these lists can be quite annoying in that they are merely showing us what was previously said. The annoying part is, it was probably me who said it in the first place.

The Balwin hammer problem is talked about somewhat by Roger Jolly who use steam voicing as part of the "cure for the overly bright Balwin hammers"

kpiano

Excuse me "temporary cure"

kpiano

The Balwin hammer problem is talked about somewhat by Roger Jolly who use steam voicing as part of the "cure for the overly bright Balwin hammers"

A light filing of the hammers to restore the strike point and steaming is exactly what a 6 year old Baldwin needs - not new hammers.

that's right, larry, i'm not a tech, don't pretend to be a tech, and do not seek credibility or credentials as a tech.

i am a consumer that has dealt extensively with voicing issues. i speak from the personal experience of a consumer, and offer the viewpoint of a consumer who has the experience of seeking a good voicer in a remote geographic location.

i am not advising how to voice, have never done any of my own voicing, nor would i do my own voicing or tell someone how to voice.

i have worked with many, many voicers, have watched top voicers work, have sought and heard their opinions and philosophies on voicing.
and, i am perhaps more aware than most techs, who live in major metro areas, of the challenges facing someone in lisa's geographically remote situation.

i speak here as a consumer sharing her experience with a consumer's challenges, and do not claim or pretend to be anything else.

my experience has shown me that good voicers are hard to find, and one must be conservative in both in choosing one's voicer, and in thinking through what one is choosing to do.

nobody here, no matter how vast their knowledge, can diagnose lisa's problem without playing or listening to her piano. and i certainly wouldn't attempt it.

since i live in her region, and know of someone close to her who she can trust and who can either diagnose and treat the problem or send her to someone else who can, that is the main point of my advice to her.

my mention of other voicing techniques was intended merely to give her hope that she can avoid replacing the set of hammers.

some of you are ridiculously territorial about your role as techs, ime. feel free to correct me when i'm wrong about something, but this bristling about my speaking up at all is quite ridiculous and just makes you guys look very insecure.

i'm simply what i have claimed to be in this post, and there is no earthly reason that any tech should feel threatened by that.

fwiw, i have the greatest respect for good techs, and consider them to be the unsung heroes of the piano world. i also happen to know, from experience, that there are plenty of clueless and inexperienced techs out there, and consumers need to be cautious--especially when they live out in the sticks!

Keith, who is Roger Jolly and where can I read about this "cure . . "?

Lisa

. . I mean . . TEMPORARY cure, that is.

Oh, and one more thing -

HAPPY BIRTHDAY, PIQUE !!

I hope you have a wonderful day.

Sincerely,

Lisa

p.s. how the heck do you put that little line over the "e" in your name???

thanks, lisa! you type alt + 0233

Here are few references, happy reading


http://www.ptg.org/pipermail/pianotech/1999-September/052248.html

http://www.ptg.org/pipermail/pianotech/1999-September/052236.html

http://www.ptg.org/pipermail/pianotech/2001-March/083142.html

Pique...

You are right on many counts especially about finding good voicers. This is a real talent and takes a long time to develop the right skills. You do not want to turn someone loose on you piano so they can learn the skill and it is a skill. One of the problem we as techs have is convincing owners that their pianos need more than tunings. Some basic regulation to a piano can do wonders for it yet piano owners often do not want to spend the extra money. I have no problem with someone relating their experiences or making recommendations and they do not have to be a tech to be knowledgeable. There is no way that a tech can know everything in the world of pianos. To get proficient at something you need to be trained properly and then practice over and over again. Voicing techniques are the subject of many technician convention sessions but you need the hands on practice to get good at this. By the way, not all of the information or advice given by technicians is always accurate or the most up to date. We need the input of consumers and piano owners because they are the clients.

To Lisa... Roger Jolly is extremely knowledgeable and often presents at Piano Technician Conventions. I may have some info from past conventions that I can dig up. I will also try to go through some other resources. I would not give up on your piano- the Hamilton is a good piano. I hope you read my earlier post about filing the hammers.

thank you, jim:

"We need the input of consumers and piano owners because they are the clients."

you are my kind of tech.

Thanks Jim. And I did read your earlier post about hammer filing. It makes total sense. I have learned a LOT from everyone's comments in this thread. I wish I would have known about this forum years ago. It would have saved me a whole lot of unnecessary suffering. . . . and its good to hear a positive comment about the Hamilton. I was beginning to wonder. When I bought it I didn't have a lot of piano knowledge under my belt, but I was very picky with tone and action so I tried out a lot of uprights. This particular piano had a very sweet clear tone and I knew it was the one I wanted. It was such a disappointment when the tone changed . . . and then after failed attempts to fix it and not knowing where to turn next - (and lacking in "extra" money, too). . . . well . . . "extreme frustration" pretty much sums it up. So - its wonderful to have some hope again.

Some day when I'm ready to buy my dream grand piano I will definitely be using this forum to add to my education.

Thanks
Lisa

The links that Brian posted are very much worth reading. I believe I have some handouts and notes from a convention I attended in Boston about a year and 1/2 ago. Hang in there. Some of these techniques are worth trying but make sure it is by someone who knows what he or she is doing.

my mention of other voicing techniques was intended merely to give her hope that she can avoid replacing the set of hammers.

Ah, I see...... I guess when you wrote

that's true, they can just pull the action and replace the hammers

you really meant something else.....

Lisa,

It sounds like your Hamilton's hammers lack the proper elasticity.

When a hammer makes contact with the string it pushes the string into it's excursion. This process is the energy transfer from the key stroke to the string.

If the hammer is too hard then the hammer won't compress properly and skip or recoil to quickly from the string.

This will promote the high partials in the overtone series, kind of like turning the mids and bass all the way down on your stereo.

The hammer will promote a greater fundemental by mating with the string longer ( through compression ) and thereby cranking those bass and mids up.

That is a quasi technical explanation for what is happening in your piano.

When I was a college tech I took care of many Hamiltons in the practice studios. A warm satisfying tone is possible but it will require extensive pre-voicing.

Avoid chemicals or steam until all the proper leg work has been done.


Good luck!

Lisa,

It might a little late to get into this fray but....
It seems odd that your Hamilton would be that bright after only 6 years. Do you play a lot? Do you consider your touch hard? It is bright all over or just in the middle?

Utah is a dry place and your Hamilton was made in Truman ARK, definiately a damper place. What is the humidity like in your home? Voicing is as much a matter of acoustics as manipulating the hammers. Is your piano in "live" room, like hard floors, non curtained windows, spare furniture?

Is the tone thin sounding, kind of metalic? Are there buzzes in the treble an octave or two above mid C? Did you need the action screws tightend to eliminate noisy clicks after owning it a year or so? How does the tuning hold up and how often is it done?