Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Repairs to early Schwander grand action.

Hi Larry and thanks! Yes I will share the results and also post some pix on here for you all! I might mention that I bought this grand sight unseen!!!- from a town about 600kms away. What a risk! But having it now in my home and had a good look at it, I like it and will keep it and maybe re-string and re-gild etc etc. Very suprised with the gorgeous sound. Normally I would never buy an English grand, but a 7'4" for $2000AUD was hard to pass up. Tonight was working on trapwork. Will keep us posted.

Let's see. I can add. For small adjustments to hammer line, I say it takes me 10 minutes with capstans so it takes me 20 with rockers. That's 10 minutes each time. I can ease keys with out pulling the stack because I have the proper tools so I rarely have any reason to pull the stack. So I would have to make about 20 adjustments to hammer line and pull the stack several times before I came close to the price to make the change to capstans. Not something I would recommend to any client. There are usually too many other things that can or need to be done for the $500+. Most clients don't have or don't want to spend that money when it really doesn't make the piano play any better. It only makes it easier to service. Replace worn hammers first and old strings. If I eat up their budget doing stuff like that I never get a chance to make the piano really sing for the performer.

Now if the wippens needed to be rebuilt or replaced then it would be the obvious thing to do. Ron Overs had some great posts on placing the wippen heel to the proper height. His action is the race car of actions. So in trying to figure out what new wippen to buy and how to set it up, I would research his posts.

Larry, quit baiting, I'm not biting. If I did the job 100 times it would work well 100 times. The fact that I play at a high level insures that. I'm not a guy that trusts to chance. Every dimension in the action I regard as critical. If you respect that reality, the outcome will be positive. The fact is I HAVE NOT altered that geometry. That's why it works. It serves little purpose to throw stones at the guy that makes things work. And let's face it there's no money in the "rocker replacement business".

Good ole Ron hey! Spent many happy hours at his workshop!! He wanted to rebuild my Baldwin SD10 some years ago and I was reluctant. Pity. I seem to remember in those days he was working on searchlights or lighthouse lamps or something. I would flatter him by suggesting he is/was eccentric - but then, aren't we all? PS I was a member of NSW PTTG for many years in case you are wondering. These days spend most of my time browsing eBay for a Model D Steinway for a song. Pity the song is the whole Ring Cycle!

Oh, and if you are constantly having to make small adjustments to hammer line, then that is an indication the wippens need to be replaced. Essentially on a rocker style, only knuckles, the back rail felt compressing and to some degree the balance rail felt will affect hammer line. After they settle in it is only hammer wear that changes blow distance. I would assume on a rocker capstan piano that all the felts have settled in. There should be NO change in hammer line to mess with except once a year. 10 minutes once a year and you want me to recommend the customer spend $500 and it won't necessarily play any better? He would think I was trying to rob him.

Keith, you are putting words in my mouth. What you do with your customers, or business model is obviously your business, and I would be the last person to advise another businessman on that.

My opinion is purely anecdotal. I bought a 1909 Weber D. It had not been re-strung since 1963, and at that it was not a great job. It was an institutional instrument, showing the usual wear and tear. It would be restrung, refinished, and the action rebuilt. Sure I could have salvaged the rocker action, but as long as it was being rebuilt, it seemed kind of dopey to not address improving the action and making it easier to maintain over the long term, as I intend to keep it. Jag never specified whether the Challen was a customer's piano or a personal piano. If it was a restoration, my thoughts would be the same. If it is a patch job and the customer is satisfied with that then have at it. I am happy with my decision, and when I will the Weber to the next generation, they will likely remain so. If I were to sell the instrument, the improved action would likely add value. Most techs tend to regard the rocker action as a bit of a red herring, and I am sure that if someone was interested in buying this instrument, and brought a tech with them to evaluate it and it hadn't been upgraded, ANY tech in my area would regard it as a liability and recommend against its purchase, or at the very least, would hammer me on the price. Maybe things are different in California?

John, I think you misunderstand me.

Jaguar8888, looking forward to hearing about your journey.

Good Points Kieth ..

I am off to NYC for a couple of days work.

Larry

I'm not putting words in your mouth I'm stating my opinion. Basically changing the capstans is a job that does nothing. By suggesting a person change to capstans instead of buying a wrench is so ludicrous. I believe that is what you suggested and even promoted. Correct me if I misunderstood the gist of your posts.

For 10 minutes a year, if any money is charged to change the parts with no other benefit to the owner, it's a rip-off. That's my opinion.
Get proficient with the wrench and I bet a guy who has done a lot can set hammer line just as fast as a capstan action. Then buy a new set of bass strings and a new set of hammers with the money. The benefits are far more obvious.

I will correct myself. I reread all your posts, John, and yes , essentially you said if the wippens were going to be rebuilt or replaced, then do the change. For me I would rather replace them even if I had to modify the new ones. I prefer the butterfly style rep spring. To do just the wippen heels and capstans would be a major waste of time. IMHO.

Keith, my wips were the Schwander style, very similar to the Baldwin Concert grand wippen. They were straight across the bottom other than the recess for the rocker pivot, so they lent themselves to the modification.They looked like new despite their age. Shanks and flanges were upgraded to a Renner off the shelf part and the mating flange rail was milled to accomodate those shanks and flanges. It renders it easier to replace parts in the future.

We all work in different ways. It made sense to me, and as yet I can perceive no downside to this.

Just on the issue of the value of a Schwander rocker action to a pianist. I have seen very few in good nick, but had for years a c. 1919 Bechstein with this kind of action, original hammers, nothing new except the bass strings.

I've never played a more responsive piano. The tonal control of that action far surpasses any contemporary or other antique action.

Furthermore, once regulated, it will stay that way for long periods. But most of the old Bechsteins I see are dreadful. The action won't do its magic unless you have either original hammers in good condition or sensitively reconstructed replacements which honour the original weight and felt type.

When all is working well, there is nothing to compare to this system. That accounts for the tiny but vocal minority of rocker capstan admirers today.

Not that Schwander's other contemporaneous actions are at all bad. For example, my 1908 Schiedmayer 8'4" concert grand has a conventional, non-rocker action from Schwander. I find it much more responsive than any Renner action available today. But it still doesn't give the control I can get out of a perfectly synchronized rocker action.

There is much to be said also for the Bluthner patent action. Again, where the hammers are featherweight and all is as it should be, the tonal control available is beyond anything available today.

It's not just the action mechanism that's important; it's how it relates to specific hammers and everything else in the instrument. Too often we criticize a part of piano technology without trying to understand the whole.

A couple of years ago a prominent restorer in New York showed me proudly his restoration of an art case Bechstein with the original, painstakingly, lovingly restored rocker action.

"For the final touch, I put in Steinway D hammers!" he ecstatically exclaimed.

The piano was nearly unplayable and I told him why. After some months of no sale, he replaced the hammers.

But someone at that prominent level really should have known better.

I wonder how many technicians out there truly understand how to come to grips with all the questions a sensitive restoration of even a 100-year-old piano entails.

If you have to replace several of those threads, don't bother with toothpicks. Go to your local shoe repair shop and buy a hundred or so shoe pegs. I pay a buck per hundred (a small handful and a guess) at mine, and they work great. They are the right size, thicker than toothpicks, just right for the job.