Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad) End Stage Fright
End Stage Fright
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Topic Options
#648784 - 12/21/08 02:20 PM Crescendo front rail punchings
rysowers Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 2340
Loc: Olympia, WA
I just installed a set of Crescendo front rail punchings and when playing the piano was distracted by the abruptness when the key hits the punching. I can see the advantage of having a firm punching but these seem almost too firm.

I'm curious to hear what other's experience with these are, especially piano players.
_________________________
Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net

Top
(ad 568) Win a Year Journal Subscription
Win a year subscription to the PTG Journal
#648785 - 12/21/08 02:36 PM Re: Crescendo front rail punchings
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4182
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Ryan I have installed them on the Heintzman grand I just sold and have also installed them on the Chickering I finished a while back. I found them yes to be quite positive in the after dip, takes a little getting used to, but in the end I like them, planning to install them on my Blüthner too.

You might get more responses to this question if you posted on the main piano forum. Just a thought that’s all………

www.silverwoodpianos.com
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

Top
#648786 - 12/21/08 02:52 PM Re: Crescendo front rail punchings
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 20742
Loc: Oakland
I do not see any point in a firm punching. The point is to make the piano comfortable to play, and the idea of these seems to be to sacrifice comfort for the sake of too much precision.

I replace front rail punchings when they get hard. I double-felt them to keep them from getting hard.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
#648787 - 12/21/08 04:36 PM Re: Crescendo front rail punchings
rysowers Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 2340
Loc: Olympia, WA
 Quote:
Originally posted by BDB:
I do not see any point in a firm punching. The point is to make the piano comfortable to play, and the idea of these seems to be to sacrifice comfort for the sake of too much precision.

I replace front rail punchings when they get hard. I double-felt them to keep them from getting hard. [/b]
Double felting seems like a good idea! I've seen this on some older instruments, but not on any newer ones. Sacrificing comfort for the sake of precision seems an appropriate description. The piano I have used them on was supposed to get delivered this past Thursday but the move had to get postponed due to the snow. I'm curious how the client will react to them.
_________________________
Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net

Top
#648788 - 12/21/08 11:00 PM Re: Crescendo front rail punchings
Dave Stahl Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/07
Posts: 1645
As a player, I prefer the positive and contollable feel of the Crescendos. I really don't like the feel of a "spongy" punching.

As a tech, I like the way Crescendos regulate.

I have them in my piano, and I wouldn't change them. Before these I had Renner punchings, which I thought felt way too nebulous at the bottom of the key stroke.

It's definitely a personal preference, and there are pianos where they work better than on some others.
_________________________
Promote Harmony in the Universe...Tune your piano!

Dave Stahl, RPT
Piano Technician's Guild
San Jose, CA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAniw3m7L2I
http://dstahlpiano.net

Top
#648789 - 12/24/08 04:27 PM Re: Crescendo front rail punchings
RachFan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1301
Loc: Maine, U.S.
I have the Crescendo front rail punchings on my Baldwin Model L Artist Grand (6'3"), as well as the Crescendo balance rail punchings. I like the positive feel of them and believe that they transmit energy to the hammers better and deliver a more focused tone. On some pianos it's said that they can make too much keyboard noise in the higher treble during scalar passages. I've not noticed that on my Baldwin though.

I did have a situation develop where I was getting a hollow knocking sound from the keyboard in the high bass. At first I wondered if it could be the Crescendo key punchings. Upon inspection my tech found that despite his earlier careful procedural adjustment of the key frame bedding screws, that during the summer with its higher humidity the key frame had developed a slight upward warp in the wood causing a noticeable knocking between the key frame and piano case in that area when the keys were depressed, and would push the suspended frame area downward to meet the underlying piano case. A thin shim inserted under the key frame there corrected it immediately. The lower humdity during winter might enable the frame to flatten out there so that the shim can be withdrawn. So the Crescendo key punchings were not the culprit!

Update 12/30/08: The warp corrected itself, the keybed frame is sitting perfectly flat, the shim could be removed and was, and the knocking is gone! All it took was the brutal Maine winter.

Top
#648790 - 12/30/08 04:34 PM Re: Crescendo front rail punchings
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
Sorry for getting in a bit late on this thread. There will always be personal preferences on how "soft" or "hard" a key landing should be, depending onthe piano, the style of playing, the music played etc.

One of several advantages of these punchings which are made from special felt, is that the after-touch remains consistent at different dynamic levels of playing. The pianist plays with more confidence, knowing exactly[/b] where the key will bottom out every time. This has a positive effect on playing and often on tone.

There may be detractors to the notion that front rail punchings can make such a great difference. But mostly these people have little or no personal experience with this product, and their speculation can hardly negate the experience of scores and scores of techs and players.

Here are a few reports and comments from technicians and end userers on Crescendo Punchings:

Technicians on: Crescendo Punchings

Note the slight conical shape - the punchings are larger in diameter on the bottom.
_________________________
Jurgen Goering
Piano Forte Supply
www.pianofortesupply.com

Piattino Caster Cups distributor

Top
#648791 - 01/03/09 05:13 PM Re: Crescendo front rail punchings
James Senior Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/01/08
Posts: 342
Loc: England
Hi guys,

I installed these on an Ibach two weeks ago.

Whilst installing them my INITIAL thoughts were "whoa these are hard - I doubt I'll like them"...

Regulating key dip was a joy. After two weeks of solid play there is barely any change/compaction at all. Very stable, even though brand new.

Pointing out that I did this work in conjunction with lots of friction reducing work, I will stay that I'm VERY pleased with the overal result as a pianist.

I'm not sure if this makes sense, and I may be imagining it, but it's as if less energy is absorbed by the punching, resulting in more of a 'bounce' when playing fast trills, which are suddenly easy to perform on the instrument in question.

I award 10/10!
Cheers Jurgen,

James

Top
#648792 - 01/03/09 05:14 PM Re: Crescendo front rail punchings
James Senior Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/01/08
Posts: 342
Loc: England
Oh yeah,
they're also very reasonably priced.

If you want to find out whether you like them, I'd simply suggest buying a set - that's what I did!

:-)

Top
#648793 - 01/03/09 05:51 PM Re: Crescendo front rail punchings
rysowers Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 2340
Loc: Olympia, WA
The price was never a consideration in my case. I had always heard great things about them. After installing them I'm just not sure how I liked the level of firmness, it just didn't seem as...comfortable. I think I need more experience with them before I make a conclusion. I originally posted this question to see if others shared my experience.
_________________________
Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net

Top
#648794 - 01/03/09 07:49 PM Re: Crescendo front rail punchings
JDelmore Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/07
Posts: 634
 Quote:
Originally posted by RachFan:
I have the Crescendo front rail punchings on my Baldwin Model L Artist Grand (6'3"), as well as the Crescendo balance rail punchings. I like the positive feel of them and believe that they transmit energy to the hammers better and deliver a more focused tone. [/b]
If your key is in any way connected with the hammer's energy when it (the key) reaches the front-rail punchings, you have some serious regulation issues that need to be addressed...

Jurgen's points make much more sense as to any perceived or real benefit.
_________________________
PTG Associate Member

"There is always room above; there is only the ground below."....F.E. Morton (with props to Del F.)

Top
#648795 - 01/04/09 06:11 PM Re: Crescendo front rail punchings
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
John, there is no question that a firm fulcrum will deliver more of the key's energy up into the wippen and hammer assembly. That is where the Crescendo balance rail punchings come in. The commonly used softer BR punchings made from action cloth have a tendency to compress under a firm blow. This acts as a shock absorber, draining energy from the key/wippen/hammer system. Loss of energy = an negative effect on tone.

There are regulation advantages to the firm balance rail punchings as well. Regulation is faster, more precise, and more stable. We are talking key height, key level, dip and aftertouch here - it is all related.

A combination of front rail and balance rail Crescendo punchings works wonderfully in very many instances.
_________________________
Jurgen Goering
Piano Forte Supply
www.pianofortesupply.com

Piattino Caster Cups distributor

Top
#648796 - 01/04/09 06:41 PM Re: Crescendo front rail punchings
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 20742
Loc: Oakland
 Quote:
Loss of energy = an negative effect on tone.
That depends on whether you are trying to play loud or soft.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
#648797 - 01/04/09 07:15 PM Re: Crescendo front rail punchings
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
I am not sure if you are saying that loss of energy is or can actually be a good thing. Can you clarify?

If you read my post, you will understand that I was referring to a firm blow.

But, thinking about it and taking it a step further, I think that this could apply to any level of playing. Surely soft playing is not negatively affected by "non-loss" of energy.

Or, put another way with fewer negatives: even at low playing intensities a retention of the energy in the (key/wip/hammer) system is desireable.

The player puts energy into the "user end" of the piano. The more of this energy that is transformed into sound production, tone, and projection, the better, even at low playing levels. The feedback to the player is more direct when the piano is more responsive.

Compare it to driving a car with play in the steering and a hand brake that is 1/4 on. This will not enhance your driving at any speed. This may not a perfect analogy, but the idea is similar.

Losing energy through poor regulation will impact negatively on touch and tone, and using materials that bleed off energy such as flexing keysticks etc will have a similar effect.

The firm balance rail punchings plug one more leak to the energy system, this one at the fulcrum. 1% here, 2% there, another 2% somewhere else - it can really add up in the end.
_________________________
Jurgen Goering
Piano Forte Supply
www.pianofortesupply.com

Piattino Caster Cups distributor

Top
#648798 - 01/04/09 08:15 PM Re: Crescendo front rail punchings
JDelmore Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/07
Posts: 634
Oh, I agree, Jurgen...both with the regulation issues and the desirability to limit energy loss at all playing levels.

I was speaking only of the front-rail punchings. It's the old "aftertouch affects tone" thing. After letoff, the hammer is effectively decoupled from the key, so I'm quite skeptical of that...to say the least. The chemist in me would need a whole bunch of data showing otherwise, not someone's 'feeling'...
_________________________
PTG Associate Member

"There is always room above; there is only the ground below."....F.E. Morton (with props to Del F.)

Top
#648799 - 01/04/09 10:12 PM Re: Crescendo front rail punchings
Keith Roberts Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/04/04
Posts: 1984
Loc: Murphys, Ca
No it doesn't matter whether you are playing hard or soft. There is negative effect on the tone with any loss of efficiency that results in a loss of energy. Loss of energy results in loss of control at ppp especially on soft trills. As the loss increases, all soft playing becomes impossible because the energy required to over power the problem becomes excessive.
_________________________
Keith Roberts
Associate, PTG
Keith's Piano Service
Hathaway Pines,Ca

Top
#648800 - 01/04/09 10:33 PM Re: Crescendo front rail punchings
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
JD,

I've not used them (yet) but, it seems to me that if after-touch and all other regulation is correctly regulated using the Crescendo punchings, it would not matter. In fact, with no give, logic tells me that it would be easier to regulate dip, after-touch and everything else too for that matter having no give for a more consistent, even regulation. Obviously then, also having a more reliable outcome.

Whereas, using the other type that we're all accustomed to using, it seems to me that some front rail punchings seem to have more give than others making dip and after-touch a bit more touchy and mushy.

Settling is not a good thing either with the balance rail punchings. No give, makes even more sense at the balance rail to me.
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

Top
#648801 - 01/04/09 11:23 PM Re: Crescendo front rail punchings
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
 Quote:
Originally posted by JDelmore:
I was speaking only of the front-rail punchings. It's the old "aftertouch affects tone" thing. After letoff, the hammer is effectively decoupled from the key, so I'm quite skeptical of that...to say the least. The chemist in me would need a whole bunch of data showing otherwise, not someone's 'feeling'...
How about your own 'feeling' or hearing? Hopefully you can attend the National Convention in Grand Rapids. If convention organization goes ahead as planned, you should have the opportunity to play, feel and hear for yourself if there is a difference. Or not. ;\)

Regarding the old (but interesting) aftertouch debate: high speed photography clearly shows that in a firm blow, the key hits the front rail punching before the hammer hits the string and under certain conditions even before let-off. The reason is compression in felts and flex in the key and action parts.

Don't think that the front rail punching comes into play only after everything is said and done...
_________________________
Jurgen Goering
Piano Forte Supply
www.pianofortesupply.com

Piattino Caster Cups distributor

Top
#648802 - 01/05/09 12:24 AM Re: Crescendo front rail punchings
rysowers Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 2340
Loc: Olympia, WA
Firmness of front rail punchings is but one more of many aspects of custom piano work that is adjustable now. I think the next time I do an action job that requires replacement I will dialog with my client and bring samples of front rail punchings and let them decide what they like the best.
_________________________
Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net

Top
#648803 - 01/05/09 11:17 AM Re: Crescendo front rail punchings
JDelmore Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/07
Posts: 634
I am planning to be in GR in July, Jurgen, God willing and the Creek don't rise...and this is one more thing to look forward to!!

I can conceptualize the firm-blow situation your talking about, and can well see how striking before letoff would affect the tone produced...but wouldn't it be sort of a "doink" like a blocking hammer? I guess that could be 'desirable' in certain situations...

I well realize that five times the five years I've been at it is hardly enough to scratch the surface of what there is to know in this business. But the "surprises" are what makes it so fascinating! And also what makes this forum and the PTG list so valuable. So, even though the 'aftertouch' question seems like a no-brainer, I'm certainly open to "tightening up my wig"...hmmm...I think I'll bring this up at chapter this Saturday (trying to 'revitalize'...this oughta stir up the old codgers!! And that's said with the utmost respect and affection.).
_________________________
PTG Associate Member

"There is always room above; there is only the ground below."....F.E. Morton (with props to Del F.)

Top
#648804 - 01/09/09 05:45 AM Re: Crescendo front rail punchings
delacey-simms Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/14/08
Posts: 114
Loc: Kirkbymoorside N.Yorks UK
I don't know how to get hold of them over here but I inherited a set from a retired tuner and they were the right depth for a recent restoration. At first I thought the keys were landing with a hell of a thump but for regulation purposes they cut out hours and hours of work, particularly with the sharps! The customer is an accomplished pianist and he greatly prefered them to other types. He did mention though that after a few hours practice his fingers ached more than usual!
_________________________
delacey-simms
piano tuner, technician and enthusiast.
All my comments are posted with the utmost respect to the other technicians

Top
#648805 - 01/09/09 09:33 AM Re: Crescendo front rail punchings
Ed Foote Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 969
Loc: Tennessee
John writes:
>>If your key is in any way connected with the hammer's energy when it (the key) reaches the front-rail punchings, you have some serious regulation issues that need to be addressed...<<

The key is often still coupled to the hammer when the front rail punching is contacted. Different levels of action saturation occur. Anders/Askenffelt in "Five lectures" demonstrate a whole range of chronological changes in the way an action operates, depending on strength of blow.
The noise associated with the harder punchings becomes part of the overall signal being produced by the piano.
Regards,

Top
#648806 - 01/09/09 12:46 PM Re: Crescendo front rail punchings
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
 Quote:
Originally posted by delacey-simms:
I don't know how to get hold of them over here but I inherited a set from a retired tuner and they were the right depth
Delacey, if you inherited something from a retired tuner I doubt it would be Crescendo Punchings, as these have only been on the market for about four years.

I have shipped these to Scandanavia, the UK, Australia, you name it....
_________________________
Jurgen Goering
Piano Forte Supply
www.pianofortesupply.com

Piattino Caster Cups distributor

Top
#648807 - 01/09/09 01:20 PM Re: Crescendo front rail punchings
delacey-simms Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/14/08
Posts: 114
Loc: Kirkbymoorside N.Yorks UK
Thanks supply, This guy has actually emigrated to New Zealand, a lot of the stock i got off him was brand new and these are definately Crescendos, I'm going to ask my regular suppliers if they can get them in future... If not you'll be hearing from me!
_________________________
delacey-simms
piano tuner, technician and enthusiast.
All my comments are posted with the utmost respect to the other technicians

Top

Moderator:  Piano World 
What's Hot!!
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
Download & Print Sheet Music Instantly
sheet music search
sheet music search

sheet music search
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Who's Online
175 registered (adanepst, 36251, accordeur, 51 invisible), 1757 Guests and 51 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
74206 Members
42 Forums
153501 Topics
2249419 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Question about monitor speakers with keyboard
by peabody
2 minutes 27 seconds ago
Disklavier to replace digital piano?
by Big Cheese
19 minutes 37 seconds ago
Happy Birthday TwoSnowflakes
by gooddog
Today at 02:23 PM
Troubleshooting the Gravity Drop/Weight Transfer etc.
by bledredwine
Today at 11:16 AM
Stories in SoundBook 2 Valerie Roth Roubos
by DameMyra
Today at 10:48 AM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission