Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum 100 y.o. Lauter baby grand

I thought I'd post a quick overview of where I stand on my project. For reference, I'm a noobie, started off interested in learning how to tune. Got a baby grand cheap (seemed like it would be easy to tune/work on), and then found I was in deeper than expected. I got a 100 y.o. Lauter, I think it was a middling piano when built. But there were some important places they fell short: they never fit the block to the frame, so I'm guessing that caused perpetual tuning problems. To cope with those, the drove about half of the pins in so far they were coming out the bottom of the block. Then the slathered the whole thing in some kind of pin-tightening fluid...

I wrote a quick catch-up to a guy who's offered me some help on email, and I thought I'd post it here. I just got some of my tools, and am expecting my block material any day, but I haven't actually done any work on it for a week or so.

Some of the things I've done:

I had to measure all the strings, in order to order new ones (the old ones were very rusty, several broken, and especially the bass sounded "dead". Also, the bass bridge came unglued and moved, so I'd have to take the strings off to fix it. I wasn't going to get them off and back on without breaking more, I suspect). As I was preparing to order them, I thought "gee, what's the chance these strings are really optimized for this piano?" I mean, middling piano built 100 years ago... So that got me learning about scale design (not that I knew what that was), and I bought some software called pscale (actually, I bought some other software called something like rescale your piano which was useless for me so far, first), and spent a good part of yesterday measuring strings, entering the numbers in a spreadsheet, and learning a little about scaling. After I'd finished what I thought was a half-decent effort, I called up the guy that wrote the software (Tremaine Parsons, I'd talked with him briefly when I bought it, and he indicated his availability and interest in looking at my project), and we talked for quite a while on the phone, each of us at our computers adjusting the scale for about 5 different reasons which I barely understood. He later sent me a few more adjustments. The reality, of course, is that it's a little 4'7" piano, so it's not going to sound like a concert grand, but I think this is going to be much better than it would have been otherwise. And hey, if this is primarily a learning experience, I'm learning!

Meanwhile, I ordered a bunch of supplies, and a handful of tools. I decided that there were some significant design flaws of this piano, especially the fact that they never fit the block against the plate, and that a 100 year old 5-ply pin block that wasn't fit to the plate might haunt me forever. So I ordered a new pin block. (this was a hard call, and I'm not sure I made it right: I think I could've epoxied/shimmed the existing pin block, and upsized the pins, but I have no desire to revisit the pins/block later -- I hope this gets it working well and tuning smoothly). I've got an adventure in front of me now! I also ordered pins, bushings, etc. Just not strings: I'll wait until I've got the pin block installed to be sure that I'm really moving this forward at a decent rate before I plunk down the $500 (yikes) for new strings. I still have to take some more measurements, and do rubbings of the string terminations, to prepare for ordering new strings. Oh, you might be interested: I had 6 trichord wrapped strings on my long bridge originally, and to address both inharmonicity and tension issues, and simplify tuning, we changed them all to bichord and added 4 more (this was with Tremaine's help, of course). At least on paper, it'll make the mid-range of the piano a lot more... consistent? harmonic? I don't know what the word is, but hopefully it'll sound better, and be easier to tune... woo hoo!

I see that the pin block is not mortised into the frame. I don't think it's even glued in, but it's a little hard to be sure, there's some sloppy glue or varnish in there. I think it won't be hard to remove, but I'll find out soon enough (I'm waiting for a pin socket to unstring it, my tuning hammer would be ridiculously slow)! I had what I thought was a brilliant idea of fitting the new pin block pretty well, and then using epoxy to fill the remaining spaces, and then Tremaine suggested exactly the same thing before I mentioned it. He gave me some good specifics about how to do it easily and reliably. I am still nervous about drilling the block, but I've done a lot of precise work so I actually suspect it might go well. Many people seem to be suggesting about a 3 degree pin angle, but I notice the angle on the bass/short bridge is far higher than that of the treble/long. Actually, I just did some checking, and have changed my thinking on this as well. Throughout the long bridge, the pin-to-saddle angle is LESS THAN PERPENDICULAR (!), if you assume I mount new pins and keep the wires up higher (they are currently smashed all the way down against the plate). The reason this works is, there's a Capo D'Astro bar throughout that entire range. So I will drill all those pins perpendicular, I do believe. I like that a lot better...

I just did some geometry, and in the bass section/the short bridge, the closest pins would require an angle of 9.6 degrees for the wire to leave the pin perpendicularly, and the farthest ones would require 4.3 degrees. I might split the difference and drill these at 7 degrees, as recommended in Reblitz I think. There are Agraffe's in this section, on the other side of the bridge/saddle (I'm not certain of correct terminology here).

The other big unknown is the bass bridge. There's something going on there, a crack or something. I'll be able to see a lot more there when I take the plate off... I hope it's easily repairable, I haven't really assumed I'd have to do a lot of soundboard work (nor do I have any experience, equipment, or space to do so!). It looks like the bass bridge was built in two layers, and the top piece appears to be somewhat delaminated from the bottom. I think it might have slipped backwards to rest against the frame there -- in fact, I just confirmed that it does, which is probably why the bass strings on that end sounded absolutely terrible... I really can't see what's going on here, but this is another reason I'd have to remove the plate one way or another...

Well, that's where it stands for the moment. I haven't really given a thought to the action, I've looked it over and dabbled, I know some hammers are largely worn out (the highest few treble) but everything else seems ok-ish. I think it could stand a good regulating... Looks like the knuckles are in ok shape, which is good I think, it seems like they'd be a hard replacement. The action was made by The Comstock & Cheney & Co, Ivoryton CT. I haven't found a date stamp, apparently the Lauter company operated from 1903-1918 according to one source (I think the Piano Atlas), but I notice a Lauter at the Piano Museum online listed as 1919-1920. My serial number is 50991, it's serial number is 56503.

I took some pictures today, I'll attach a couple. The soundboard cracks are really just small checks, I don't think I'm going to worry about them.

I'm increasingly aware that, as a 4'7" grand, this is sorta like putting a ton of work and money into a spinet. Oh well, it does fit in my living room well! Maybe I'll try an upright next time... Though I think I might really like working on the grand form factor, everything seems so accessible. Of course, I've never even opened an upright...

Thanks for your interest and help! I think I'll probably post this to the Piano World forum... well, maybe.

Warmly, Keith

Hey Keith - nice to read about what your project entails. See, you now know a whole lot more about scale design and such than I do, as I've not delved into that subject at all yet.

I know my Starck is not a concert grand by any means either, but both of the pianos we're working on are great for learning, right? Post some pictures when you get the chance - I'd love to see what you're looking at and how it progresses over time. And by doing this, we can probably learn a lot from each other.

Cheers -

Dave

"I think it could stand a good regulating... "

Keith, this would be a very good idea prior to attempting pin block replacement or removing the plate - espeically if your pin block is not anchored to the case as you have said.
The pin block determines plate hight and plate hight determines string hight. Any changes could make the action difficult or impossible to regulate.
Be sure to make several reproducable registration marks/patterns that locate plate to case and plate to bridges before you take the plate out - make them very precise.
Measure plate hight at the rear of the piano as well.
An additional thought is that the existing pin block could be not a factory job - something that someone did at some time in the piano's history? Do not assume the string hight is correct. Another reason to regulate the action first.
You should seriously consider the alternative - stabelizing the existing pin block with epoxy and wedges and using oversize tuning pins. You may not need to remove the plate to do the bass bridge work.

Well, thanks, I've been distracted and just got back here, but had some free time yesterday and today so worked on the piano. I don't know if I made enough marks of plate height, etc. Hopefully I'll get it worked out.

I've now removed strings & pins, pinblock, plate, cut a new pinblock, punched out all the bushings, and gently pried off the unglued bass bridge. The bridge will reglue easily. The pinblock was 4 1/2 plys (one thin ply) of maple totalling about 3/4", and 1/2 of some rather soft wood on the bottom. Someone had literally poured CA all over the top of the plate, so it had dried into drips off the bottom. I'm replacing it with a 21 ply pinblock, I think it is, so it should be a huge step up. Plus, I'll try to mate it to the plate tightly. I think that was the origin of what has probably been 100 years of tuning ordeals!

I'm not interested in investing much time in aesthetics, and so I'm torn between spending time cleaning up and repainting the plate (it's now or never!) or just moving along. It looks really gross with all that CA dried all over the top of it. The cabinet is in pretty nice shape.

I'm wondering if anyone ever gets their plates plated, i.e. chromed or something. It'd probably be more expensive than I'm interested in...

BTW Gene, I do appreciate your advice, and of course it may prove to have been right ;-) (of course, the advice to just go get a better piano might prove to be right too!). But I think this block was likely to cause perpetual headaches. The real question in my mind is, when all is said and done, is the piano going to be playable? I don't honestly know! I'm going to try to make a careful assessment before I buy strings, I think the major question is the action, which looks to be pretty well regulated (the hammers are nicely aligned slightly above the rest, the jack pops off the knuckle at just about the same moment on all keys: I don't really know how to judge any of this yet, of course, and I don't know the jargon, sorry!). As I've said before, It's a learning process!

I think it proved true that doing anything at all entailed replacing the strings: some were rusted nearly all the way through up at the hitch pins! It looked like the felt there had gotten damp or held humidity or something. There's no sign up water damage elsewhere, though there may have been water exposure to one side of the soundboard -- it doesn't look damaged.

Here's a question: it looks to me like the bearing surface of the Capo d'Astro bar is not very well finished, sometimes sharper and sometimes rather flat. Would it make sense to clean it up/grind it to have a somewhat sharper string bearing point? And, does anyone lubricate that bearing before restringing?

Oh, and another question: The bass bridge was two parts, one fairly thin piece that served as a cantilever holding the bridge itself out floating in air. Is that normal? I've not seen that detail, but I haven't looked either! That's the dilemma of being right at the beginning of such an adventure...

Thanks as always!

Keith

Hey Keith -

Nice to see your progress on your Lauter! I can't comment on much else, but based on my current occupation, I can make a well-informed comment about chrome plating for the plate.

WAY TOO EXPENSIVE!

Take a look at this site: http://www.chromeprosplating.com/wiki/CPP/chrome_wheel_prices

That's for motorcycle wheels. Think about how much bigger the plate is (surface area, compared to wheels). Not worth it to plate it, I'm sure.

If I remember correctly, Reblitz mentioned spraying lacquer on a plate if you are restoring a piano. I'm thinking that's the way to go. If you're not used to doing any spraying of paints, practice first! The stuff WILL run if you spray to heavily, and then you'll have to strip it cause it'll look as bad or worse than it does now. Two or three very thin coats are MUCH better than one heavy one.

Okay, that's my $0.02. Take it (or leave it!) for what it's worth. Looking forward to your progress on the pin block!

Dave

Plates are bronzed, which means sprayed with a lacquer with powdered metal in it. If you use metallic paint from an aerosol can, that is one way of bronzing a plate. Some plates may have additional coats of clear lacquer over it, but as one coat melts into the next, it really does not make a lot of difference. Aerosol cans are sufficient. You can do that for $10 worth of spray cans. Plus the cost of respiration and ventilation!

I would not grind the capo bearing surface or reshape it. Just carefully eliminate the string grooves with emery cloth or a file - no lube required.
The cantolevered bass bridge is normal but the design is questionable.
If you spray the plate do a test spot first. I have been suprised by lacquer reacting with the existing (unknown)finish - you may need a sealer coat. A good cleaning with TSP will help too. You will be much better off with the aerosol cans - if you have never used a spray gun or lacquer, a plate is probably the most difficult thing to learn on.
Also, please do not spray the agraffes. If you take them out (agraffe wrench needed)to clean and polish make a pattern, and do not get finish in the seats or threads.

Thanks Gene!

Interesting point about spraying the plate: it seems like it has at least 2 or 3 prior finishes on it, and perhaps as a result they are sort of soft, and chip fairly easily. I can't clean the CA off the pin area easily, I would have to grind down to bare metal -- which would be hard to do cleanly around all those holes... If I leave it, it's REALLY ugly. Though as I've said, this piano isn't for show, I want to get it playable as quickly and cheaply as possible, while not totally sacrificing quality...

I guess I'll keep thinking about the plate...

Keith