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#650231 - 05/06/02 12:14 PM Re: Stanwood?
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5483
thanks, mark, there may be something to your last conjecture, though assuredly i do not know.

i did ask my tech to work more on that section and he advised against voicing it any further. he said that it would be better to let the piano develop on its own for a year or so, and that the imbalances would work themselves out.

in the meantime, it is driving me crazy. i'm working on a mozart sonata where most of the melody is in that octave, and i just hate it.

do you think it would be OK to remove the felt from just under those strings and see if that made an improvement? is that something you would feel comfortable doing? couldn't you always put the felt back if that section began to get too strident?

i may think about emailing grotrian in germany about it. maybe just to ask them about their design philosophy in this particular case, and the intention for that section.

in the meantime, it is getting tuned at the end of this week (i'm going to ask for tuning at A=443) and i'll see if that makes a difference.

if anybody else has any ideas or info on this, please do post it.
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piqué

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#650232 - 05/06/02 03:04 PM Re: Stanwood?
Brian Lawson, RPT Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/04/01
Posts: 647
Loc: South Africa
"do any of the techs here know what i'm talking about? and is this a common phenomenon due to scale design? and if so, how is it commonly addressed?"

What you may be complaining of is the "killer octave" which is basicly only overcome by better soundboard design

search for it on www.ptg.org/archive/pianotech/
_________________________
Brian Lawson, RPT
Johannesburg
South Africa

http://www.lawsonic.co.za

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#650233 - 05/06/02 08:40 PM Re: Stanwood?
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5483
brian,
thank you very much for sending me to the ptg board. a fascinating reference. i did do a search on "killer octave" there and one of the techs gave a test for it. he said strike A5 hard and time the decay. mine decayed fully in about 22 seconds. he said anything over 15 is a very lively soundboard, anything under 12 is a dead soundboard.

based on this, it would seem that my soundboard is fine. i also checked the crown in the treble area (it's there), and the downbearing has been checked and is fine.

i did note that the length of sustain seems to gradually grow shorter as one moves up the keyboard. (is that normal?) it is quite short at the top of the keyboard. sustain in the killer octave area is around 12 seconds. the tone is much cleaner, clearer, and purer when the strings are plucked than when struck with a hammer. therefore, i am thinking--and hoping!--this is a voicing issue.

but the "killer octave" on my piano does indeed perform as those techs describe. it's too quiet, and does have the "blown speaker" sound.

i do wonder if any of this has to do with the scale design of my piano.

i also wonder how common is the "killer octave" experience? do most pianos have this problem? are some known more for this than others?
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#650234 - 05/06/02 09:18 PM Re: Stanwood?
reblder Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/21/01
Posts: 1237
Loc: Sherman Oaks, Calif.
Pique--

Just a suggestion(besides notifying Grotrian).

Check out www.wapin.com. The wapin system is designed essentially to enhance volume and sustain in a piano short of replacing the soundboard. My partner, Niles Duncan and myself did such an installation about a year and a half ago on a relatively obscure 7' grand and got excellent results with it. It entails modifying the bridge as you'll read on the website.

Mark

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#650235 - 05/07/02 09:26 AM Re: Stanwood?
Simon Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/21/01
Posts: 95
Loc: Toronto, Ontario
Pique, in answer to your question, from my earlier post:

 Quote:
Originally posted by Simon:
...
Is this the range C5 to C6, and is that range what has been called the killer octave? On my piano, I've noticed that that range seems particularly 'sensitive' to voicing or regulation changes, if that makes any sense. After the first voicing and regulation, the tone in that octave went from 'thin' and 'hollow' - as you so aptly described, Derick - to round, fat, juicy. After the second voicing, it has gone just a little bit thinner.
...[/b]
What I perceived as 'thin' and 'hollow' may be the same as what you described as 'wooden' - but that is pure conjecture on my part, of course. IMHO Derick may have had a point when he alluded to the condition of the felt on the hammers possibly having to do with the problem (if I read you correctly Derick, sorry if I haven't). Again, just a guess and probably wrong.

According to the tech who did the first voicing, the 'killer octave' problem is common.

FWIW.

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#650236 - 05/07/02 12:02 PM Re: Stanwood?
reblder Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/21/01
Posts: 1237
Loc: Sherman Oaks, Calif.
Yes, the "killer octave" is a common enough phenomenon. It can be corrected(drastically however)through replacing the soundboard. My rebuilding partner and myself achieved remarkable success in doing such with a Steinway A3. We felt that leaving the original board intact with the weak sounding octave wasn't doing the piano justice if restringing alone wasn't guaranteed to change it enough.

I've also heard though about a tech specializing in the Wapin system(which I made reference to above) who addressed the same problem in a Steinway D and corrected it because the school he was contracting to rebuild the piano for wasn't in a position to afford a soundboard replacement.

Mark@pianosource.com

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#650237 - 05/07/02 12:21 PM Re: Stanwood?
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5483
mark,
even though the soundboard appears to have crown (though maybe less all the way at the top of the scale--it is hard to tell with so little room to manuever under there), and i'm told it has proper downbearing (maybe too much?) and the sustain at A5 is excellent (though not so great at A6), the "killer octave" as it was described on the ptg board does indeed seem to describe my piano.

this is a brand new piano, under warranty. it should not need a new soundboard. in reading the ptg board, there were quite a few discussions about how common this is, and that usually customers don't recognize there is a problem. there was even a debate about whether or not it was the responsibility of a tech to tell a customer about the problem if they didn't notice it.

these techs were quite cynical about the entire business. evidently, it is not uncommon for new pianos to have bad soundboards. however, getting satisfaction for the customer is next to impossible. the dealer's tech's job is to assure the customer that nothing is wrong. the customer's tech can call the dealer and manufacturer and tell them there is a problem, but then it is his word against the dealer tech's. the customer's tech has no incentive to protect the customer's interests (except his own sense of fairness and integrity) because there is nothing in it for him except aggravation.

another thing that was mentioned on the ptg board is that some voicers are very skilled at temporarily disguising these problems.

so, now, of course, i am wondering if this describes my situation. my dealer sent out his tech, who pronounced there was nothing at all wrong with the piano, and who made it sound wonderful for about one day. and who, when i complained that some of the problems were coming back, said i should just ignore the problems for a while and play the piano, and then get it voiced again in about a year.

i am wondering why the tech on the ptg board said to test A5 for killer octave problems when A5 is not in the killer octave, but A6 is. my A5 has terrific sustain. A6 does tend to drop off, however. is sustain supposed to be consistent across the scale?

how do i determine for certain if i have a killer octave problem?

if i do have such a problem, how do i get satisfaction from the dealer and avoid the "games"? should this be considered a warranty issue? how should a reputable dealer handle it if the piano has a killer octave problem?

i'd hate to think that it is my problem now to remediate this when the piano is under warranty.

also, until i read the ptg board, i did not realize that some sections of the soundboard could be dead while others are alive. my soundboard has tons of crown if you measure along the longest ribs. less so when you get to the very shortest ribs. but wouldn't that make sense, since there is less surface area with which to create crown?

i hope there is some straight shooter here who might guide me in sorting all this out.
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piqué

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#650238 - 05/07/02 12:57 PM Re: Stanwood?
Derick Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3290
Loc: New York
pique,

In a previous post you mentioned a test by striking A5 and timing the decay. You said that yours decayed fully in about 22 seconds.

Is this test performed with or without the sustain pedal?

When you say the note decayed fully, does that mean that there is absolutely no sound coming from the piano?

I just want to try this on my piano.

Thanks,
Derick
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#650239 - 05/07/02 01:16 PM Re: Stanwood?
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5483
 Quote:
Originally posted by Derick:
pique,

In a previous post you mentioned a test by striking A5 and timing the decay. You said that yours decayed fully in about 22 seconds.

Is this test performed with or without the sustain pedal?
[/b]

without the sustain pedal. you must strike the key very hard and hold it down. time the duration with a second hand on your watch until the tone has vanished for all music making purposes. (not until every last sound is gone--that took over 30 seconds on my piano).

part two of the test: then, you depress the same key very gently, just enough to raise the damper off the string without sounding it. then take a guitar pick or similar tool and pluck the string, damper raised, very hard, while keeping the key depressed. again, time the decay. it should be the same as when the string is struck by the hammer. if the sustain is longer, or the tonal qualities are different when you pluck the string v. when you strike the hammer, then you can change the performance with voicing. if the results are the same with hammer and string plucking, then you know the problem is inherent and voicing won't help.

i timed the duration of tone as it would be useful for making music. i have extremely acute hearing, so can hear sound vibrations that probably aren't relevant to the test well after that.

i would think, however, that it wouldn't matter that much, just as long as you time the same duration of sound for the plucking as you do for striking the hammer.

please post your results with your falcone. in particular, i'd like to know how the duration of your A5 compares with your A6, and if duration changes in general as you move up the scale. what do you find about the qualities of the tone with hammer strike v. plucking?

also, the test gave a duration of under 12 seconds as proof of board failure, and above 15 seconds as a lively soundboard. i wonder if this duration can be affected by room acoustics, and that a shorter duration could be improved by locating the piano differently?
_________________________
piqué

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#650240 - 05/07/02 01:37 PM Re: Stanwood?
reblder Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/21/01
Posts: 1237
Loc: Sherman Oaks, Calif.
Pique--

One thing you might want to do is return to the dealer and see if other Grotrians(preferably your model too)have that same problem in the same area.
If they do, then as I indicated before this is something intentionally done by the Grotrian makers to keep that area a little weaker for a while until it brightens enough to eventually match the rest of the piano(remember my saying that that area tends to get brightest sooner than the other sections).

I once discovered that excess crown in a soundboard creates problems as well. There was a little model of a soundboard that had a tuning fork mounted on it. When the soundboard had zero crown or excess crown the tone was dead. So the optimum crown is right in the middle of those extremes. However, I'd be astonished if your piano had this excess problem to it.

If you're not getting the satisfaction from the dealer, I think you need to get in touch with the Grotrian company just to find out if there is indeed some sort of flaw that they would need to correct. And you'd need to make sure that a Grotrian authorized factory tech is the one checking it out.

Mark

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#650241 - 05/07/02 10:39 PM Re: Stanwood?
Derick Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3290
Loc: New York
pique,

Here are the decay times on my piano. BTW, there is no difference whether I strike the string with the hammer or pluck it:

A5 - 18 seconds
A6 - 12 seconds
A7 - 7 seconds

I'm surprised your A5 sustains for 22 seconds. Falcone's are praised for their long sustain. Not that I'd expect your piano to sustain less, but I didn't expect it to sustain significantly longer.

Now I'm wondering if there is something wrong with my piano.

Derick
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#650242 - 05/07/02 11:17 PM Re: Stanwood?
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5483
derick,
thanks very much for posting that. it is a big help. this shows me that sustain does diminish the higher one goes on the scale. and the fact that your A6 and my A6 decay at about the same rate is very reassuring to me.

as for my sustain at A5 being longer than yours, don't feel bad. anything over 15 seconds is considered to be a very long sustain, so there's nothing wrong with your piano. one reason i bought the grotrian is for its extraordinary sustaining characteristics. if i had counted until the sound utterly disappeared it would be even longer.

ok, so apparently my soundboard is OK. now what? how do i get this part of the piano to respond like the rest of the scale?

mark, thanks for your suggestion about contacting grotrian, but in light of the contacts i've already made with them and the dealer, i'm thinking my best bet is to figure out what the problem is independently and only go to them if and when the facts show that there is a warranty issue. otherwise, i'll just have to deal with them trying to show me again that there is no problem.

unfortunately, i live 2,500 miles away from my dealer, so i can't go play other new grotrians. but i do think i may inquire of the factory if they deliberately dulled down octave six in anticipation of it becoming too brilliant in future.
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#650243 - 05/08/02 12:09 AM Re: Stanwood?
JohnC Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/02
Posts: 1672
Loc: Lower Left Coast
Pique,

Let me offer you some free advice, keeping in mind that free advice is usually worth what you pay for it. \:D

Three to four years ago I went on a piano safari. As I was looking mostly at used, older, quality pianos I made it a point to get as educated as possible on repairing and rebuilding. I spoke with retailers, private sellers, techs, rebuilders, and anybody who would talk pianos with me. I also spent *numerous* hours scouring the PTG archives to learn of repairs, rebuilds, and other things that can cost a lot of money on older pianos.

I found the PTG archive incredibly insightful. But one of the things I came to realize is that building or maintaining a good piano is way more art than science. People with excellent credentials didn't always have answers to issues and problems such as the "killer octave". Their experiences didn't always mirror each other when faced with similar problems.

I too reviewed the archives just now for "killer octave". Some of the things pointed out include the fact that no sound comparisons are legitimate if the piano is not in perfect tune. Many pianos have a killer octave, but not always in the same place. The same piano can have the killer octave move based on changes in household climate conditions such as humidity.

What I am trying to say is that I seriously doubt that a high quality piano such as you have has any major flaw with it. While everyone here is trying to be helpful, keep in mind that no one here has ever seen or heard *your* piano.

My current piano is completely rebuilt including the soundboard. I am of the belief that a new piano does need time (maybe years) to fully settle in. During that time minor changes in sound can occur. I think this could well be what you are experiencing. Factoring that with a piano as it gets slightly out of tune and you can really drive yourself crazy wondering if you are hearing things. I know, I've been there (And more than once ;\) ). I'm not saying you aren't hearing things, just that it could be very normal as your tech told you. My diagnosis (since everyone else seems to have one) is a mere case of "paralysis by analysis". Yes, you are hearing things, no they are are not major problems.

Since it sounds like you have no current "local" tech, I would start trying to find a good one since I'm just speculating that your dealer may not feel the need to fly one out for you every 6 months.........and you will have a life long need for one! \:D
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#650244 - 05/08/02 01:31 AM Re: Stanwood?
Chris W1 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/26/01
Posts: 915
Loc: Boston
Pique, et al,

As an aside, A#5 is the break on the Steinway B, a piano frequently asailed as having killer octave problems. This may be part of why you see so many "A5" references on the PTG site.

Once upon a time you really liked this very piano in the showroom and, whether it is you, or the piano, that has changed, at least there is a good chance you'll find that relationship again with it. Its not impossible, but very hard to believe something has changed that radically. Hammers?

I agree with John C. If two pianos have different tunings, bad and good, the sustain times will differ. A better test would mute off 2/3 strings in a unison before clocking anything.

Chris W
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#650245 - 05/08/02 09:28 AM Re: Stanwood?
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5483
the piano changed radically before my ears in just 12 hours, so it certainly could have changed from the showroom. the tech who prepared it for the showroom is a very skilled voicer, one who is regularly brought in by a lot of dealers to doctor problem pianos, especially breaks in the scale. he himself told me that what he creates is a fragile illusion that quickly deteriorates.

i do have a local tech; he is not, so far as i know, an experienced voicer.

according to the experiences of those on the ptg board, there can indeed be very serious problems with even the very best pianos. and it's not even uncommon. i have, since december, been going along on the assumptions both of you have outlined, and bearing in mind that it is a new instrument that needs to settle in. i'm merely educating myself as best i can so that i can make my own determinations of whether there is a problem or not. i've already learned that just having faith in one's tech is not enough (as has derick).

thanks for pointing out that the test may be meaningless if the piano is not in perfect tune. since the one time the piano did not display the "dead zone" problem was immediately after a good tuning, i am hoping that the next tuning will resolve the problem--and the results will last longer than one night. i have a tuning scheduled with the local tech, so we will see.

can anyone explain why tuning changes sustain?
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piqué

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#650246 - 05/08/02 10:50 AM Re: Stanwood?
Derick Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3290
Loc: New York
I'm confused... Isn't A5 the first A above middle C? If that is the case, I thought the closest break on a Steinway B happened between the C#/D above this note. What am I missing here?

Thanks,
Derick
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#650247 - 05/08/02 11:00 AM Re: Stanwood?
JohnC Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/02
Posts: 1672
Loc: Lower Left Coast
I thought the first A above middle C was A4. If Middle C is C4, going up the scale would be D4,E4,F4, etc. or so I thought????

My B actually breaks at what I would call (based on above definition) B4/C5. I know it does not break at A5. I need to double check all this when I get home tonight.
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#650248 - 05/08/02 11:22 AM Re: Stanwood?
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5483
the very first note on the piano is A1. A5 is indeed the first A above middle C, which is C4.
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#650249 - 05/08/02 01:27 PM Re: Stanwood?
Alex Hernandez Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/22/02
Posts: 1966
Hi everyone I didnt mean to crash the thread, but I wanted to perhaps clear up this whole numbers business. the first note on the piano is actually A0, The numbers don't start until you get to C1 the last note is C8.

And BTW sustain times tell you a little but the rate of decay of the true fundemental tells you a whole lot more about the instrument and its refinement.
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#650250 - 05/08/02 02:05 PM Re: Stanwood?
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5483
hi, alex,
thank you for clearing that up. and please do join the thread. we need your expertise.

now would you mind translating "the rate of decay of the true fundamental" for us? \:\)
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piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#650251 - 05/08/02 02:08 PM Re: Stanwood?
Derick Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3290
Loc: New York
Alex,

Thanks for clearing this up. Based on what you just said, what I thought was A6 on my piano is actually A5. This note sustains for 12 seconds indicating my piano has a dead soundboard according to the RPTG test.

Over lunch, I ran over to the local college that has 80+ Steinways. The student practice rooms have M's. Some are a little beat, but there are a few I'd call exceptional. I performed 'the test' and noticed sustain times were shorter than those I posted for my piano - about 1 second across the board.

I wouldn't classify any of these pianos as having a dead soundboard. Can you or another tech expand upon 'rate of decay'? I'd say that the sustain on my piano trails off at a fairly even rate. I don't hear a sustain problem with my piano, but maybe I'm used to it? Can you perform "the test" on a Bosie and post the results?

Thanks,
Derick
_________________________
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#650252 - 05/08/02 02:20 PM Re: Stanwood?
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5483
a bluthner would be OK, too. ;\)
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piqué

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#650253 - 05/08/02 02:30 PM Re: Stanwood?
Alex Hernandez Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/22/02
Posts: 1966
 Quote:
Originally posted by pique:
hi, alex,
thank you for clearing that up. and please do join the thread. we need your expertise.

now would you mind translating "the rate of decay of the true fundamental" for us? \:\) [/b]
I'll give it a try \:\) , When a string is put into it's excursion it produces a fundemental( the lowest frequency it is capable of producing ) and the rest of the overtone series. If the string maintains a true vertical excursion and the soundboard transitions to a state of rest evenly then the rate at which the fundemental decays should be consistant with the rest of the overtone series traling off only before the string stops its excursion.

If either the string excursion or soundboard travel are not true or experience an interuption in a smooth transition to a state of rest you may hear the string change character becoming somewhat nasely in it's sound. This is reffered to as a longditudenal (sp?) roll.

This is something that hammer shaping and bridge seating of the string can have some influence over but in fact is a greater indication of bridge/soundboard/rim relationship and its overall construction ethic.

I hope it helps ;\)
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#650254 - 05/08/02 02:46 PM Re: Stanwood?
Derick Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3290
Loc: New York
I'm not sure I completely understand, but thanks for the explanation.

I thought you sold Boesendorfers for some reason. Sorry about that.

Derick
_________________________
Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.

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#650255 - 05/08/02 02:51 PM Re: Stanwood?
Alex Hernandez Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/22/02
Posts: 1966
Hi Derick, feel free to give me ring perhaps I can do a little better on the phone.
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Blüthner USA, LLC

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#650256 - 05/08/02 03:32 PM Re: Stanwood?
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5483
i may need some help on this, too. alex, may i attempt to recast your explanation, and you might tell me if i got it right or not? disclaimer: i am guessing at the following!

 Quote:
When a string is put into it's excursion it produces a fundemental( the lowest frequency it is capable of producing ) and the rest of the overtone series.
when a string is struck or plucked it produces the "fundamental"--its lowest frequency tone--plus a series of overtones.

 Quote:
If the string maintains a true vertical excursion...
if the string vibrates correctly for the duration of its sounding...

 Quote:
...and the soundboard transitions to a state of rest evenly
and the soundboard reflects the tone evenly for its full duration.

 Quote:
then the rate at which the fundemental decays should be consistant with the rest of the overtone series traling off only before the string stops its excursion.
then the fundamental tone and the overtones will decay at the same rate, and trail off only just before the string finally comes to rest.

 Quote:
If either the string excursion or soundboard travel are not true or experience an interuption in a smooth transition to a state of rest...
if either the string or the soundboard are not vibrating correctly--they are not in sync or the decay is not smooth...

 Quote:
you may hear the string change character becoming somewhat nasely in it's sound. This is reffered to as a longditudenal (sp?) roll.
the tone will turn nasal during the duration of its sounding. this is called a longitudinal roll (sp?)

voicing and seating of the strings may help, but it usually indicates an improper relationship between the bridge, soundboard, and rim.

whew! how did i do? and good thing this ain't a final exam. \:o

so, alex, does this mean that the quality of the tone is more important than the duration? and how does one test for this?
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#650257 - 05/08/02 04:08 PM Re: Stanwood?
lb Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 1731
Loc: Indiana

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#650258 - 05/08/02 04:13 PM Re: Stanwood?
Alex Hernandez Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/22/02
Posts: 1966
Pique,

Whewww...Let me further try to splain myself.

Excursion is the travel of the string, If the string has a shallow excursion it wont produce a proper fundemental.

A true vertical excursion means that the string vibrates up and down and resist vibrating at a diagonal angle.

Soundboard transition means that from maximum throw, movement it comes to a state of rest evenly and without a drastic change. I.E. good movement to an immediate stop or shallow movement.

The soundboard doesnt reflect sound, its the rim that is responsible for that. the soundboard thru its impedence amplifies the the vibrations transmitted via the bridge ( I know you know this I am just trying to be clear ).

Strings and Soundboard are never in sync, its more a question of proper movement in conduction.

The bottom line is that a fine instrument demands these issues be addressed at the point of production.

Why is a $60,000 grand so much better then a $14,000 grand when both have the same basic types of design and perhaps the same actions and hammers? How can it be that 'roslau strings and solid spruce soundboards dont automatically ensure top performance every time out.

And the answer is......craftsmanship, One string can produce proper excursion while an identical design with the same materials will not perform as well. The reason is the care , expertise and attention to detail that a craftsman put into it ( such as ensuring proper downbearing).

I know I have digressed here but to me this is the larger issue when it comes to understanding the difference in quality between manufactures.

I hope I havent added to the confusion.

Oh and I almost forgot..The quality of tone is subjective. But it is widely acknowledged that the duration of the fundemental contributes to the quality of tone.
_________________________


Blüthner USA, LLC

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#650259 - 05/08/02 04:37 PM Re: Stanwood?
Derick Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3290
Loc: New York
pique,

Can you email me? I need to ask you a question.

Thanks,
Derick
_________________________
Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.

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#650260 - 05/08/02 07:41 PM Re: Stanwood?
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5483
hi, derick,
i sent you an email a few hours ago, but there appears to be a problem with my server. alert me here if you don't get it.
_________________________
piqué

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