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Derick:
I'm glad to find out about this early in my shopping process. My only concern with the Petrof II, that I otherwise loved, was the extreme brightness in the top 2 octaves. I was told by the seller that that could be voiced down considerably so I temporarily put aside my reservations about it. I had also heard on this forum a lot about voicing, so I naturally thought this would be fixable.

Now, I'm not so sure. I knew the piano had Renner action, I didn't know who made the hammers, I just knew it was too bright in the treble. So would you say that if one thinks the sound of the Petrof II is way too bright for his personal preference it's probably not going to be possible to sufficiently voice the piano with the original hammers?

Thanks,
Brad

To all -

I have probably come on too strong about Renner hammers. Last night I was talking to someone who has an old, completely rebuilt Steinway with Renner hammers which he is very happy with. However, he did say his rebuilder stated that whoever does the voicing on Renner hammers really needs to know what they are doing. I got the impression that the rebuilder was indicating such voicers are few and far between. I have never run into such a voicer, and apparently Mat D. hasn't either; but obviously, they must exist.

Derick

pique -

My experience with my Renners was exactly as you said, they'd be ok for a day or two and then they got bright again.

Not being a tech, I can only say this about the Abel's, very little needling was done to my hammers. My tech worked on the notes around breaks in the strings, other than that he touched very few.

I do not like bright pianos at all. My piano is now rather dark, but if I hit it very hard I'll get that 'metallic' sound out it. Based on what you've said before, I think you'd like the voicing of my piano.

IMO, Steinway makes a huge mistake by not voicing the hammers. An instrument should be right when you buy it, not a year or two later. From day one, M&H sound much better than S&S because you can 'hear' them. But they need to be toned down (IMO) to reach their full potential.

Falcone was willing, and did voice, two pianos to my preference. I think high-end manufacturers should do this, or at least have a selection of differently voiced pianos. My $02.

I certainly am in no position to say what kind of hammers should be put on your piano. But my hammers were Renner Blues and they were replaced with Abels. There is also Tokiwa, they may be a bit softer than Abels, I'm not sure.

Replacing the hammers on my piano cost $2000. Yep, a lot of money.

BTW, you should check out the Stanwood website. There is a graph of the touch-weights of a Grotian-Steinweg showing the how uneven it is. (I am not criticizing your piano by the way. I believe he picked Grotian to show that even very high-quality pianos can benefit from Stanwood).

I also must say that with the new hammers and the Stanwood system ALL the voicing problems vanished. I'm sure the hammers had something to do with it, but I believe that the Stanwood system had maybe even more to do with it.

Think of a hammer moving upwards just slightly faster than the one adjacent to it. Or find two adjacent notes on your piano that sound the same when you hit them. Then just hit one slightly harder and notice the difference in sound. Especially in Octave 6. Try it. I think you'll find a huge difference in how they sound. Let me know what you think.

Derick

Hi Brad,

I think, not sure, that Petrof uses Renner hammers. As I said above, there are techs who can voice Renners but finding those techs may be difficult.

The Petrof's I've played that have had minimal preparation are too bright for me, particularly in the treble as you stated. I have played a few that have had new hammers put on them and they were extremely nice instruments.

Keep in mind that the Petrof's I have played are in my area (where no one knows how to voice Renners!).

Assuming you would buy the piano if the upper octaves were as you liked them, I would ask the seller to tone them down stating you will buy it if you are happy with the sound.

Not being a dealer I don't know how that would fly. But if I were in the market for a piano today, I would find one I thought needed no changing, or ask that they make it right before buying it.

If you purchase that piano and then find out that the upper octaves can't be voiced to your satisfaction, you are going to have to live with it or shell out big bucks to have new hammers installed on the piano. I don't think that is right. And based on my and few other's experience, voicing issues don't seemed to be resolved without spending big $$$.

I hope I'm not offending any dealers. As I said, I'm not in the business and just stating what has been my personal experience.

As the saying goes, YMMV.

Derick

hm, derick, i'm not sure what you are driving at here, but i tried what you suggested and they really don't sound any different.

actually, my problem is that octave 6 sounds weak and thin, kind of wooden sounding, strikingly different than the lush sound of the rest of the scale. there's no depth, the bell-like richness of the rest of the piano is missing. it was not like that in the showroom, and it was not like that right after my tech came out and worked on it, but it soon went back to being that way again.

my tech said that 99 percent of what he did to rectify the problem was giving the piano a good tuning (he tuned it twice in one day, and it sounded incredible that night). there was very little voicing involved. he said voicing at this stage of a piano's life has a very short shelf life, and it really has to wait at least six months, maybe a year is better.

at this early stage, the piano begins going out of tune almost immediately after tuning (of course, you have to have a very good ear to hear this, i don't think it would be readily apparent to most people) because it is still an infant piano.

anyway, if i can stand to wait until the season changes stabilize, i'm getting the piano tuned again in june and i'll be better able to judge then if tuning is 99 percent of the solution, or if i need to get my voicer back out here sooner rather than later.

i don't doubt from what everyone has written here that the stanwood is a fantastic system. sounds like it would have been worth it to buy a kawai and then fit it with a stanwood--you'd save a lot of money!

but even if they do improve the grotrian action (which i am willing to allow), it really cannot be by very much. i played a lot of pianos during my search, and i did not find an action as fine as a grotrian's on any other piano. it is much nicer than a steinway or m&h action. sorry to sound like a grotrian snob, but don't knock it until you have tried it!

the grotrian's biggest weakness is that section of the treble, and i wonder if the make of the hammers is really the issue. if it were, then wouldn't all the hammers sound as bad?

i did ask my tech the next day if he would work on that section some more, but he declined, saying that at this early stage of the piano's life it is important to just play it, enjoy it, and live with it as it is until the instrument has stabilized in its new environment. only then does further voicing become appropriate.

if any techs here have comments on any of the above, of course i'd be very interested and appreciative.

I really don't think the problem is Renner per se---If I'm not mistaken, Renner makes the hammers that are used in the Hamburg Steinway C & D-----Obviously these are made to the STeinway spec---Mason & Hamlin (Petrof, for that matter) ought to take note & have Renner make some 'cold-pressed' for them like the Steinways in Hamburg.

If anyone knows more about this, I'm curious.

As for the Renners I've come across, they sound fine for a while, but after a month or so, go right back to the nasal tone we all hate. I know that M&H had some techs go around to the dealerships to teach them how to properly voicce a Renner hammer, but I haven't noticed too much difference in their more recent pianos.

I think that voicing technique has alot to do with the sort of tone a tech can get. In my own case, for instance, I've tended to expand on what was the conventional multiple jabbing approach(directed primarily at the shoulders and crown)to a more complete technique that encompasses the entire hammer which is done in a radial fashion. I first learned of this when attending a class given on voicing which was presented by a Schimmel piano factory tech at a Piano Technicians Guild Convention years ago. Subsequently I came across an article on this same technique in an issue of the Piano Technicians journal whose author is a well respected tech in Connecticut. Following this, I didn't suddenly abandon the way I was voicing but periodically would try out this new method. I've found that it is especially good in creating a "rounder", more expansive sort of tone but actually supplements the more traditional approach that's geared toward cutting down on excess tonal brilliance.

Mark@pianosource.com

To the guy who emailed me earlier:

I tried replying but my email was returned as undeliverable. However, the tech you named is not the tech that 'worked' on my piano. I have not heard of the tech you mentioned.

BOL,
Derick

Great thread. Hammers mean so much.

-Abel's don't sound that much different from Renners, IMO. They are widely available to techs, they are cheaper than Steinway hammers and are good right out of the box. So, their popularity isn't all about the final result.

-I recently checked out the new Bechstein dealer nearest me and was amazed how bad a b-208 sounded with its Renners. It was completely outclased by the Walter 190 next to it. The renners found on Bosie's are phenominal. Its mostly staying on top of voicing. I do wonder how long a Bosendorfer would keep that sweet full, incredibly dynamic, sound over the course of 100 plus hours of heavy playing.

-While I have heard it said that top quality hammers can be voiced to sound alike, I would tend to disagree. Cold pressed hammers with lacquer take on a resiliance all their own, IMO. I know of an old piano where the hammers are dirty, they are grooved, but they sound fantastic, as if worn in like a perfect set of 88 baseball gloves. That's what I want.

Chris W
...just signed P&S on a house that will finally fit a grand!

Steve,

I, as a non-piano tech, can buy a set of Steinway hammers with walnut molding for $325 at stevespianoservice.com. I don't know how much Abel's cost since I couldn't find any place willing to sell them.

If Abel's are readily available to techs, Steinway's must be even more so as they are available to the general public.

Regarding the sound... replace the Renners on your Schimmel with Abel's and let me know if you still believe there is no difference in the sound.

In addition to comparing my piano with Renners and Abels, I have also played 3 Steinway L's, one with Renner, one with Abels, and one with Steinway hammers; same store, right next to each other. Tone is a matter of preference so I won't get into that, but I will say all three sounded different.

Derick

derick,
your hammer experience sounds really neat. can you try to describe for us the differences in tone between the three different steinway Ls? how would you characterize steinway v. abel v. renner hammers, from that playing experience?

very curious.

Keep in mind that all three pianos were rebuilds done by three different rebuilders. I was not particularly impressed with the action of the piano with Steinway hammers as it felt like the key dip was too shallow and the action was very light. The actions on the other pianos were more to my liking.

The Steinway with Steinway hammers was the darkest of all the pianos. Not dark (i.e. muffled) as a new (NY) Steinway's, but too dark for my taste. I found it difficult to get much volume out of the piano and impossible to get even a slight 'metallic edge' out of it when I layed into it. But, the complex tone that Steinways are famous for was there in abundance. It was the 'lady' of the bunch. Quiet, refined, always minded her manners. Exactly the girl Mom wanted you to bring home. Action aside, if the hammers were a little brighter, this probably would have been my favorite of the three.

Next was the Steinway with Abels. This piano was a just a little too bright for my taste. The action on this piano was the best of the three and the piano could be played softly to very loud. It had that slight 'metallic edge' I like when playing hard; although it came on a bit sooner than I would have liked. The fundamentals were more prevalent in this piano than in the former, but they didn't overshadow the other harmonics. It was this piano that convinced me to go with Abels. This piano was the girl who would know her place in front of your mother, but a heap of fun when out of earshot of your mother.

Finally, the Steinway with Renners. This piano was too bright for me. The treble had far too much 'ping'. The rest of the piano was ok, but it was just about impossible to play softly. The base had a "thunky" sound when played hard. The notes seemed to fly out of the piano and it was difficult to hear anything other than the fundamentals. Perhaps, because of the ping, it seemed like the treble was lacking sustain. This piano was the girl you secretely desired but knew you'd kill your mother if you ever brought her home. What it lacked in refinement it made up for in 'curb appeal'. It was clearly the favorite of everyone who entered the store.

Again, three different rebuilders did these pianos. Had the piano with Renner hammers been voiced by someone who knew had to voice Renners, the results may have been different.

Derick

Derrick,

Steve?? I guess you meant me.

There is no other site like Stevespianoservice on the internet. Who knows how he gets his S&S hammers. They are probably fine, for all I know, but, from what I've read and, sorry, I can't remember where, S&S hammers are the hardest of the three brands to come up with. I've seen abels used by the majority of S&S rebuilders, so they must be widely available for these people. I don't think availability is important, anyway.

You wrote:
>If Abel's are readily available to techs, Steinway's must be even more so as they are available to the general public.

I think that is a pretty rapid conclusion on your part.

FWIW, I wasn't putting Abels down by saying they are more like Renners than S&S. After all, don't you agree? You comments in the above description seem to bear that out. Personally, I think Abel does make a better hammer than Renner, but even that is debatable on every Bosendorfer I've ever tried. I've heard some Estonia's sound poor with Abels, too. You don't know unless you've found the quintesential voicing expert for each one.

My Renners do harden up. I am not a tech, but I still selectively needle them to tame things down about every 40 hours of playing. You can never, and shouldn't, needle hammer crowns too deeply and, as such, you are always left with things eventually brightening back up. If you don't pick up a set of needles, or call a tech every so many hours of playing, than you are living with a piano whose voice becomes imbalanced. I happen to play a few things in C# and G#. Its no mystery to me why I am in there occasionally needling down at least the tonic/dominants, etc.

With regard to my Schimmel, perhaps the Abel tip (triangles) are less stiff and would sound better. I don't know, but am happy with my own results through needling. YMMV.

Chris W

Chris,

Yes, I meant you. Sorry, I had Steve on my mind from stevespianoservice.

It sounded to me like you were saying that Abel's are the "blue-light" specials in the hammer world because they were "readily available" and "cheaper". I guess you weren't.

As for Boesendorfer and Hamburg Steinway, I can't find a thing wrong with the way they sound and wouldn't swap their Renners with anything else.

However on the limited number of other pianos I have played with Renner hammers (Falcone, M&H, S&S, and Petrof), I have not been particularly happy with the sound. Or, more precisely, I felt those pianos had a lot more potential.

I've never encountered a Schimmel, but if it's like every other German made piano, I'm sure it's fantastic. Nevertheless, I still maintain that if your Renners were replaced with Abels, you would hear quite a difference. Whether that difference would be for the better is questionable.

Derick

derick,
thanks for the review. very interesting.

so which pianos come standard with abel hammers? this might help me understand if i like them or not. i've played new york and hamburg steinway side by side and prefered hamburg. i was told the real difference between those two was the hammers.

my current voicing problem actually doesn't have anything to do with brightness, but with lack of power in octave 6. any ideas on what that might be about? my tech showed me how to voice down for brightness, and that wouldn't address this issue.

Derick said:

If the piano with Renner hammers been voiced by someone who knew how to voice Renners the results would have been different.

Personally I don't buy that, that Renners require a "special" sort of technique. I've already indicated above what my own method is and I could use that for Renners as well as any other hammer make.

Reminds me of the time I attended a class given by Bosendorfer on voicing their piano. They were rather adamant that it had to be done the conventional way, i.e., repeatedly jabbing the hammers's shoulders. Well, yes that can do it so I have no argument with it really. But so can a tangential approach which in fact is my favored technique when working on especially hard hammers. And I also indicated that the radial single needle method is quite effective in creative a rounder sort of tone.

Mark,

Can you tell me why pianos with Renner hammers such as Boesendorfers and Hamburg Steinways sound so nice, whereas other high-quality pianos sound awful with Renners? The NY Steinway I mentioned earlier was VERY rough around the edges. If voicing/the voicer wasn't the problem, what do you think it was?

Thanks,
Derick

pique,

Estonia comes with Abels as does Sauter (I believe). The Hamburg Steinway has Renners, the NY Steinway has Steinway hammers.

There is no comparing a new Hamburg to a new NY (IMO), because (NY) Steinway doesn't bother to do much (if anything) with the cotton balls it puts on their pianos. I have played 'seasoned' NY Steinways that I prefer to the Hamburgs.

Getting back to your piano, I have a few questions. Not that I know anything, but no one else is volunteering so I'll play amature piano tech.

If I have this right, you really like the way your piano sounds except for octave 6, right? So right there I don't think different hammers are the answer. I believe you also said that that octave was fine in the showroom and when you first got it, but later on developed this problem, correct?

A few more questions... Where does the duplex scaling begin on your piano? Are there any breaks for supports in or near octave 6? Could the change in tone also be described as 'thin' or 'hollow' rather than lacking in power? Or it it strictly lacking in power?

Derick

Octave 6...that almost sounds like a new drink mix, or even the next blockbuster movie (reminds me of The Thirteenth Floor, for some reason)!

Is this the range C5 to C6, and is that range what has been called the killer octave? On my piano, I've noticed that that range seems particularly 'sensitive' to voicing or regulation changes, if that makes any sense. After the first voicing and regulation, the tone in that octave went from 'thin' and 'hollow' - as you so aptly described, Derick - to round, fat, juicy. After the second voicing, it has gone just a little bit thinner.

Also, along the lines of playing amateur piano tech!: Pique, I would hazard that the Stanwood mod might help more than you think, as a result of smoothing out the strike weights in that region. Or at any rate, customizing the hammer weights to your preferences. Now I know someone might just come knock me on the head for that!

Btw, Derick: Would you possibly be able to send me a copy of those scans of your Stanwood charts?

Simon,

I will try to scan those charts tonight and send them to you. Last week I tried to scan something and kept getting an error message from my scanner (it's an all in one; scanner/printer/copier/fax) that I hadn't configured something correctly. But this gives me the incentive to fix the darn thing.

Although I never had an entire octave that sounded hollow, there were two notes on my piano prior to the upgrade that bothered me. F# one of the first few copper wound strings when decending the keyboard and after the largest support brace. And D in the 5th octave following another brace. Both notes sounded hollow.

Since I changed two things at the same time, I can't say with 100% certainty what eliminated the hollow sound, but I think it had more to do with the Stanwood system then the hammers. The reason I say that is because I complained about those two notes to every tech who voiced the piano and the problem never got any better.

Derick