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Derick--

Without actually being there to see the New York Steinway I can only conjecture what I would think is the problem here--an unthorough voicing job.

The Bosendorfer's construction involves the use of spruce rims so that in itself has a palpable effect on the tone(the tone is absorbed in this case as opposed to being deflected back out). As far as the Hamburg Steinways go, they're properly very painstakingly and meticulously voiced by a factory expert until it satisfies his(or her) most rigorous expectations.

Does that "sound" right to you then?

Mark@pianosource.com

Yeah, I think you're on the right track. More or less.

Derick

Derick--

Interestingly enough, the tech at the local piano supply house here in Van Nuys(who's actually the son of the man who established the outfit)now supplies wippens that have auxiliary springs so as to make action weight adjustments. Till then, he was not so "taken with" the Stanwood system and thought that his hammers alone(called Pacific Gold, they're actuall "modified" Tokiwas)would be sufficient to make any needed action weight changes. That together with removing key leads I would say.

Mark

Derick & Rebdler

This thread is very informative and intriguing. In some respects I wish I never read it.

Bill--

But in this instance, ignorance needn't be bliss.

Mark@pianosource

OK, I'm not a tech.....but I have been thinking.

If each brand of hammer is obviously different, then they would produce different sounds in the same evironment (piano). Taking it one step further, they would then, obviously, create different sounds in different environments (pianos).

Therefore, if you were trying to achieve a particular sound/tone in any given piano, wouldn't the needling required be different for each hammer brand/piano? And so, techs who are more familiar with a given brand of hammer and piano combination would conceivably be able to achieve this better than a tech less familiar with the hammer/piano combination?

In summary would my logic not hold that every tech is not as capable of voicing Renner, Abel, or any other brand based on their experience with that brand? And that one size (voicing technique) does not fit all?

Did any of that make sense?

John--

Consistent with what I had stated earlier, it is simply NOT the case that a particular hammer requires some sort of voicing technique altogether different than another. So in other words, one size DOES fit all.

Y'know it's rather interesting at our shop for instance, that once we voice the hammers to our satisfaction in any rebuilt piano, it sounds good enough(and we're using the standard voicing procedures) and we wouldn't even be able to tell whether it was an Abel, a Tokiwa, or even a Renner hammer that had been installed. However, we haven't used Steinway hammers as yet. They do require more attention in the voicing process(lacquering in addition to needling)so THAT might produce noticeably different acoustic results than the others.

So you might then say(based on what I just said)that yes, the Steinway hammers DO seem to call for a voicing procedure quite different than the other brands. But if I happen to come across ANY sort of hammers that are weaker sounding, the lacquering process is a standard treatment anyway to be followed by needling once the lacquer's dried enough.

Gets a little confusing, doesn't it? No wonder Bill couldn't figure it out!

Reblder

Is there any particular reason why you haven't used S$S hammers yet? Are they proprietary, too difficult to use, or just not worth the effort?

rebldr - In my earlier post about the 3 Steinways I stated:

a) three different pianos
b) three different rebuilders

For whatever reason, all 3 pianos sounded different. And, based on my familiarity with Steinway and Renner (hammers), I could easily distinguish what piano had which hammers.

If the Renners on my piano were voiced to sound like the Abels do now, I wouldn't have paid 4 different techs over $1K to voice the piano. And a 5th a heap of money to put on new hammers. Perhaps none of the 4 knew proper voicing techniques? I don't know. But, as I said, Faust-Harrison gave me the name of the guy who ruined my hammers and said he was "the best in the area".

I'm not doubting your statement about Renners, I'm simply stating my observations/experiences.

Bill G. - You (or I) can buy Steinway hammers over the internet for $325. I spoke to the guy who owns the website and he swears they are the 'real deal'. He certainly sounds legit.

Derick

Derick--

In the final analysis I pretty much have to say "I dunno". It's a rather complicated issue what with perceptions, labels, expectations and "wut knot" involved. I'd be willing to bet though that if that Faust Harrison recommended tech had been more thorough he "might" have been able to achieve the results you wanted(for instance if he had also used the radial technique I've already described which makes use of the single needle).

Bill G.--

We can of course install Steinway hammers if that's what a customer requests. However, it does require additional time with an additional expense which we would point out to the customer.
Actually, my partner Niles has considered using them on a B he acquired last year that will get rebuilt soon.

Mark

Derick--

I re-read your post and realized you had this experience with four techs and then that Faust Harrison tech really added insult to injury.

The Renner hammers are pretty much metallic sounding to begin with, that much I'll concede.
But I still would maintain that any really thorough tech could have transformed them into a sound that you would have found certainly more agreeable than they were in their "raw" state.
But it's also possible that you were so acutely aware of the initial metallic aspect to them that even when that was corrected to what I would perceive to be a sufficient extent, you'd still not have liked them(this then referring to my last post about the role of "perceptions" in what we hear).

Reminds me of a customer that we just had that came to check out our pianos quite recently. He already owned a Schimmel grand he wasn't all that content with and said he always wanted a Steinway, his "dream" piano. He did observe though that the new Steinways at his local dealership were too muffled sounding for his ears.
When he came to our place, he rather liked the two model B's we have for sale. One in particular he commented on favorably but said that he'd have to put his Schimmel on consignment.
But he wouldn't commit to buying. After I didn't hear from him for a couple weeks, I decided to call to find out what happened. He then said he wound up buying a new one, this in spite of his favorable experience with ours. It demonstrates to me that there are people too uncomfortable with "hybrid" Steinways, the ones that don't have the Steinway hammers in them. And I've also observed that the more accomplished players really don't give a **** about this either. In his case, though, I'm sure he was offered money on his Schimmel as a trade in and hopefully the tech there worked on the hammers to his satisfaction as well.

Mark

Mark,

You could be right about my perception of how my piano sounded versus how it actually sounded. Particularly with regard to the metallic sound.

But one thing these techs never were able to get rid of was what I earlier called a "boomy" sound in the bass. Perhaps a more appropriate description is a "thunky" sound. Basically a very sharp attack followed by sustain at a much lower volume. Almost like the note was 'clipped'.

I checked out a number of things: hammer not rebounding from the strings, dampers not clearing the strings, etc... but that wasn't the case. If I held up the damper and plucked the string the note had plenty of sustain, so I always suspected voicing. As I said, none of the techs were able to fix it. And that Steinway L with the Renners had the same "thunky" sound as do a lot of Petrofs that I've played on showroom floors. Maybe the problem is more where the hammer is needled? The problem was very evident when playing hard. Just rambling here...

But I do think the tech I now have probably could have eliminated the problem - but I found him after my hammers were shot.

FWIW, there was one (just one) rebuilt Steinway that I really liked. Everyone talked me out of it saying "it's not a real Steinway". That stuck in my head. Of course, now I know differently and would respond "Yep, it's not. It's better." Nevertheless, I am finally very happy with my Falcone.

Derick

Mark & Derick

My (limited) experience with new and factory rebuilt Steinways (L,B) is exactly as you both describe them, muffled in the treble. Steinway claims the pianos develope over time as they are played. Is there some intrinsic benifit to using soft hammers that harden thru playing?
Thanks again for this thread.

Bill

Derick--

Based on your description here, it's just possible(and of course I'm speculating)that the piano has too much downbearing and if so cannot be remedied through voicing. I mention this because when this phenomenon is present(this excess downbearing)there be will an "overtransfer" of energy from the strings to the bridge and soundboard resulting in too strong an attack(also called "prompt sound")and a concomitant weaker sustain as well. Technically this is also known as "improper impedance matching" but I don't want to go into the details of that. This would have occurred in the manufacturing(or rebuilding if this were done instead). But I imagine none of those techs checked for that. And even if they had, they might have not even have known how much downbearing was too much.

Bill--

Yes, one school of thought has it that even if you start out with weaker sounding tone from the Steinway hammers, just leave well enough alone and in time, the tone will mature. Well, trouble is that's gonna take some pretty constant playing over a number of years. And I remember a former customer I had with one(during the 80's, possibly Steinway's worst period)and during this time, the sound never improved one wit. Matter of fact, even lacquering didn't help all that much(a more strident tone from this doesn't do anything for the lack of breadth to the sound, it's much too shallow sounding). But the customer didn't want to go to the expense of replacing the hammers either since they had just bought the instument.

hm. the side by side comparison i did was with two seasoned pianos. maybe i just like the renner sound. though it would seem there are both makes with abel and renners i like and abel and renners i don't like. so the hammers must not be a factor.

hey, much appreciated. i have a new tech (local) who is coming to tune next week, and if i glean any ideas from this forum from any of you here as to what might address this problem, i will be thrilled.

well, it arrived with this problem, but then, the plate was loose, too. but tightening the plate didn't fix it. the tech who flew out from new york gave it a quick fix with some laquer and needling, and also a double concert tuning. after his tunings, my piano was absolutely sublime, much better even than in the showroom. but, true to what the tech predicted, by the next morning it was sliding back to its previous condition. he said nothing he could do would have a shelf life longer than 24 hours, as the piano is changing constantly at this stage of its career. when i raved about how much better the treble was, he said 90 percent of what he did to address the problem was the good tuning, and that the piano would go out of tune again almost immediately, because it is brand new.

grr. this is so hard to answer. the tone could also be described as thin or hollow, though i call it "wooden" sounding. it doesn't project, it lacks the resonance of the rest of the keys. but if you pluck the strings for those notes, they have excellent sustain.
and yes, since you ask, there is some sort of a break in the scale right where the shift happens, around E5. the agraffes stop at the beginning of that octave. and yes, i do believe that must be where the duplex scaling begins, as there is felt under the strings right behind the pins for the upper octaves, but not below d5.

so what does this tell me about my problem with octave 6? and what can be done about it? anyone???

Another completely wild guess/idea...

In a post above I described a problem I heard with one of the Steinways as having a sharp attack and then sustain at a low volume in the bass. Mark mentioned that it could have been due to too much downbearing. I wonder if too much downbearing in the treble could manifest itself in a way that you are hearing on your piano? Tightening the plate would have some affect on downbearing, right???

What I don't understand is how tuning could affect it THAT much. But, as I said, I don't know a thing and am just taking shots in the dark.

My piano has a break between C# and D. If i listen VERY carefully, I can detect a slightly different tonality between the two notes, but then the rest of the octave sounds like the rest of the piano. I wish I had some other stupid thing to throw out as a possibility...

Derick

P.S. Have you ever written to Grotian?

pique,

One more stupid question...

You said that octave 6 had a "wooden" sound. Is such a sound characteristic of one might imagine a piano to sound like if very little felt were covering the hammer core (don't know if that's the proper term).

Again, just trying to help; I readily admit I don't know what I'm talking about.

Derick

the sound in just that section lacks dimension. the round, full tone of the preceding octave is absent. it is a flatter sound, lacking depth. it doesn't sound wooden in the sense of hearing wood striking string. it sounds wooden in the sense of being dull.

it is interesting that this shift in tone occurs just at the point that the agraffes stop, and there is more felt under the strings by the pegs.

do any of the techs here know what i'm talking about? and is this a common phenomenon due to scale design? and if so, how is it commonly addressed?

thanks a bunch.

Pique--

Yours is a real mystery gotta say. At first I thought that the felt under the strings was perhaps overdamping the string harmonics and thus causing the condition you describe. Then I went to my own piano(a Yamaha S4 grand)and saw that I have the same exact style and it has no effect whatever on that region tonally speaking. I do remember that years ago Baldwin had a patent on this frontal aliquot system with no string underfelt that allowed the front segments of the strings to vibrate with the idea that it could enhance the overall tonal color. Similarly Bluthner has these supplemental aliquot segments though I feel the result is no negligible as to be non-existent(as far as enhancing the tonal harmonics goes). But maybe in your case the effect of that string underfelt is TOO effective causing that undesired muffling effect you've described.

Mark Mandell
www.pianosource.com

Pique--

Just an afterthought. It's possible that this was intentionally done BECAUSE the Grotrian makers realize that that section has a tendency to get rather strident sounding relative to the other piano sections. This is because the shorter string segments vibrate to a greater degree vertically relative to the horizontal component unlike the longer strings in the preceding tenor area. It's for this reason that this section always requires a more aggressive voicing. So Grotrian's philosophy might be that it's better to have that section tonally on a par with the rest of the piano.

But I also wish to emphasize that this is conjecture on my part and I too could be way off base. Might be worth your while to contact the Grotrian company to see if this has been done for this reason.

Mark