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#650688 - 02/21/09 11:37 AM Piano problems encountered.
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Hi,

Thought it might be interesting or fun, to hear what each of you may have run into from day to day this past week or so? For example;

Monday, I had a call that a leg was broken on a grand. It's a Howard grand with the kind of leg that slides into a cast iron plate. Without removing it, I suggested possibly, the screws were yanked out from the force of NONE turning castor's or, it maybe something cracked. I suspect it is the screws. Will figure that one out at a later date when my son is with me to lift it and remove the leg.

Wednesday. Had ordered two strings from well, a well known company. They were 1/4" short of where the wrappings should have been but, happened to sound perfect anyway so, they remained installed.

Thurs: Filed hammers on a Schimmel vertical, spaced and aligned them. Complaint, notes not making the same sound on each blow. Cause? They had shifted just enough to hit between the grooves instead of in the middle of them. They are okay now.

Thurs: Condemned an old Hudson spinet with split bridges and loose tuning pins. Positive side? They are purchasing a new piano instead.

Friday: Tuned a piano in a school that was empty but for the Janitor and secretary. Guess what room he had to work in?

That's my boring week. What was yours like?
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#650689 - 02/21/09 12:40 PM Re: Piano problems encountered.
Matthew Lavender RPT Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/05/09
Posts: 31
Loc: Michigan
Let's see...

Had a clicking sound on a new Kawai UST-8. Thought it was the usual cause which is loose catchers. Surprisingly it wasn't. Turns out that the manufacturer had dribbled a little bit of glue onto the hammer butt leather. Scraped it off with a razor blade and bye bye click.

Had another clicking sound coming from the damper pedal on an old Yamaha P202. The cause was from a loose bracket, cause the metal lever to wobble back and forth as it moved. Tightened the bracket a bit to fit it to the lever. No clicky now.

Been a week of clicking noises. Had more coming from... *gasp* a BALDWIN! Could have been a million reasons for it but this one was from old, hard hammer butt leather. Informed the customer that all of them had to be replaced.

On a positive note I got to tune a nice Yamaha C7. \:\)
_________________________
Piano Technician

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#650690 - 02/21/09 01:09 PM Re: Piano problems encountered.
Dave Stahl Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/07
Posts: 1645
I tuned a 48 year old Kawai that was clicking and clacking like a wagon on cobblestones. Turns out, at least half of the hammer centers were loose in the flanges. It had the Yamaha type flanges with the steel plates, and it was an all wood action: pre ABS. The little plate screws had some rust and some were a bear to get out. I repinned all the hammers in the middle section. In addition, I adjusted the pedals and put a pin in the soft pedal dowel so that it would stay in place in the pedal lever. And the B 2 damper at the break was NOT lifting off the string either by pedal or by key, so I bent the wire, and voila. Tightened all the wippen screws, too.

The piano also had several loose tuning pins...I recommended that they not spend a whole lot more money on it, and put that saved money into a piggy bank for a new instrument. Not quite ready for the graveyard, but it will be in a few more years.

It musta lived in the desert.

Matt, I've seen that butt felt click more than a few times. I have used my chopstick voicing tool to reach in and break up the glue with a fair amount of success.

Good topic, Jerry. I often think about how tedious it would be to do nothing besides tune. I like diagnosing, repairing and regulating. It adds a sense of completion to the job, and it gives your ears a break!
_________________________
Promote Harmony in the Universe...Tune your piano!

Dave Stahl, RPT
Piano Technician's Guild
San Jose, CA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAniw3m7L2I
http://dstahlpiano.net

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#650691 - 02/21/09 01:14 PM Re: Piano problems encountered.
Mocheol Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 527
Loc: Dublin, Ireland
Do the large castors on a grand piano get locked if the piano is left stationary for many years or should the castors be regularly lubricated.?
Just wondering
_________________________
vcz

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#650692 - 02/21/09 01:45 PM Re: Piano problems encountered.
Jay C Stark Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 13
Loc: North Little Rock, AR 72116
Loose pins... a big problem. I tuned (twice) a Howard Piano (not the old Ballwin Howard) but looked like a Korean or Chinese (no names anywhere, about 4”10”. A church gave it to him. This told me something. I replaced several of the wound strings first time tuning, didn’t notice loose pins. Second time there were 3 notes (last of the 3 string configuration) with all pins very loose, so loose that they would back up, would not hold the pull... The piano is ebony with a fine finish and look good and not more that a few years old. All other pins are tight. Daughter plays beautifully (about 16). Modest means. Somebody make a suggestion please.

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#650693 - 02/21/09 02:22 PM Re: Piano problems encountered.
Bob Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 3834
I'm in Ocala all weekend doing rental D tunings for soloist John O'Conor www.johnoconor.com and the Ocala Symphony. The program includes Beethoven's 3rd Piano Concerto.

Andre Watts will play on this piano next week.

I powered this piano up earlier in the week due to lack of volume.

I'm sure I had some nasty pianos this past week, but once tuned, quickly forgotten.

I'm booked solid this coming week and have to tune several pianos and a harpsichord at the university early am before classes, or late eve after classes. Such is the life of a university tech!
_________________________
www.PianoTunerOrlando.com






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#650694 - 02/21/09 04:31 PM Re: Piano problems encountered.
Sam Casey Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/05
Posts: 1135
Loc: SW Missouri
Had a memorable one. Seiler 208 circa 1990. Donated to a Methodist Ch by an uber-rich who attends EXTREMELY rarely. Music minister took tuning course in Penn several years back and tunes church pianos.

Two regular pianists are my customers. Both are piano teachers and HATE the Seiler. For years they've been moaning about getting me to look at it. No way says I. Too many cooks in the kitchen. A month ago the uber-rich donor attends a funeral for a relative and hears the piano. KABOOM, he hits the roof. I get a call, come down here and fix this. I say, clear it with the church, music minister and whoever else. Don't need to step on toes, got plenty of other things to do.

I get to church. 29% RH. Piano sounds like a tin can. Every note has string buzz. No back bearing. Tighten plate bolts and get easy 3/4 turn from each before snugging. Helps the buzzes greatly. Way flat, tuned twice to A440, CLP balance rail, teflon dust knuckles. Some hammers catching on backchecks, check drop off. NONE. Cranked 4 complete turns on rep spring screws before any lift. Did all wips the same. (NO time to accurately regulate.) Helped greatly. Brushed hammers to take the "crust" off and sweetened the voicing quite a bit. All the work was "just to get it playable."

Music minister comes in. "Was it a bad as they said?" "Well...." says I and played a few chords. He says, "there, a octave below middle C. That's out of tune."

I take deep breath, slowly exhale. "If you read your PTG info it suggests checking with 3rds and 6th's for accuracy..." "Oh," he says, "I like it more pure than that."

"Look," says I, "we can argue about a lot of things, but this is how I make the big bucks. The tuning is fine."

Says he, "by the way, who called you?" Oh boy, here it comes. I pointed to the brass plaque on the side, "this fellow."

"Did he say who was to pay for the service?"

"No but he was supposed to clear the way for my visit." At this point, I'm ready to get the blazes on the road. I leave my bill, call the teacher/pianist, tell my tale and wish all involved well, long life and prosperity. Too many cooks in the kitchen.

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#650695 - 02/21/09 07:01 PM Re: Piano problems encountered.
Gadzar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1603
Loc: Mexico City
Jay, use CA glue on those loose tuning pins. Pull out the action and put some newspapers on the keybed before applying the CA glue.
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#650696 - 02/21/09 07:30 PM Re: Piano problems encountered.
Ron Alexander Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/17/03
Posts: 1292
Loc: North Carolina
I had a good week. No interesting stories, no Wurlitzers, just Yammie grands, except for Wednesday. I had to pronounce last rites on a 1903 Mendelssohn Upright. Such a beautiful cabinet, but the the action was absolutely shot.
The owner didnt want to spend to resurrect it, if that is even possible. Like a 1965 Chevy with a brand new paint job, but with a rusty corroded engine. Gone to the junkyard, R.I.P!!!!
_________________________
-----------------
Ron Alexander
Piano Tuner-Technician

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#650697 - 02/21/09 08:45 PM Re: Piano problems encountered.
RPD Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/07/05
Posts: 961
Loc: Kalamazoo Michigan
Somebody tell me how to post pictures here and I'll show you something you'll not soon forget from MY week...RPD
_________________________
MPT(Master Piano Technicians of America)
Member AMICA (Automated Musical Instruments Collector's Association)
(Subscriber PTG Journal)
Piano-Tuner-Rebuilder/Musician www.actionpianoservice.com

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#650698 - 02/21/09 08:56 PM Re: Piano problems encountered.
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Don't ask me! I've never been able to figure it out! I can tune a planoooo but, I kan't do dis.
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#650699 - 02/21/09 11:28 PM Re: Piano problems encountered.
dherbon Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 37
Loc: Iowa
A long early morning tuning! I was asked to tune a S&S D this morning for a very large all day jazz contest and a university concert in the evening. The piano was to be played from 8:00 am until 9:30 pm. Since the contest was also on Friday, the only time I could get to this piano was before the Saturday contest started. Another tuner tuned for the Friday session. I started tuning at 6:00 am in the auditorium. I was the only one in the building. The piano was not in too bad shape, very uneven, but before I finished tuning, the heating system came on to raise the auditorium to daytime temperature. The room temperature went up 10+ degrees. When I finished the first tuning, the entire piano had dropped 8 cents so I started over. Then someone finally came and turned off the work lights and unlocked the light board and turned on the stage lights. By the time I finished the second tuning, the piano was only 3 cents flat top to bottom. I did a quick touchup and was ready to leave when the contest manager came in and said all the schools except one canceled for the morning session because of the blizzard conditions outside. I said “what blizzard conditions?” What was so strange was that every time the piano dropped pitch, it dropped evenly across all octaves except the very top end. I think I will charge a little extra for this tuning. At least, it was a very nice S&S D and did sound very good when I finished.

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#650700 - 02/22/09 12:13 AM Re: Piano problems encountered.
bernardk Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/13/09
Posts: 8
Loc: KY, USA
Hey, you can post pictures like this:

 Code:
[img]http://www.yourimageaddress.com/image.jpg[/img]
Go to http://www.tinypic.com and upload your images, then copy the link that it gives you and replace it for that link i placed inside the code box. Preview your post and it should be good to go.
_________________________
Free e-course on How to Play Piano at PlayingPianoByEar.com Spice up your music!

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#650701 - 02/22/09 12:58 AM Re: Piano problems encountered.
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
You can upload to Piano World, too.

http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/fileuploader2.html

Ignore that stuff about choosing a contributor or something after you click submit. It doesn't work, and has no effect whatsoever on the upload. You'll get a personal email with the image's location.
_________________________
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#650702 - 02/22/09 07:38 AM Re: Piano problems encountered.
David Jenson Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 2039
Loc: Maine
"Somebody tell me how to post pictures here ..." RPD

_________________

It's a little tricky, especially if you're not familiar with html voodoo. I just put an image on my web hosting server and link to that.

If you do post a picture, try to get the file size under 200K to speed up the loading. There are still a few of us on dial-up connections with smaller monitors.
_________________________
David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----

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#650703 - 02/22/09 11:01 AM Re: Piano problems encountered.
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
I think it's easier for dummies like me to just post it like I did before with the link to my online site. Tried it both bernardk & Horowitzian way and got so dang frustrated after an hour of farting around with it that I got mad and quit.
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#650704 - 02/22/09 11:35 AM Re: Piano problems encountered.
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#650705 - 02/22/09 11:37 AM Re: Piano problems encountered.
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
HAH well, I finally figured out how to post a picture but, deleted it... That's why the practice blanks in here... Sorry! Now, I have to figure out how to resize it cause it was wayyyyy to big!
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#650706 - 02/22/09 01:55 PM Re: Piano problems encountered.
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jerry Groot RPT:
I think it's easier for dummies like me to just post it like I did before with the link to my online site. Tried it both bernardk & Horowitzian way and got so dang frustrated after an hour of farting around with it that I got mad and quit. [/b]
Here's a picture I uploaded to Tinypic:



That's Horowitz's piano CD314503 for those who are curious.

It even will resize for you. Are you having some problem on your end preventing it from working, do you think?
_________________________
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#650707 - 02/22/09 02:44 PM Re: Piano problems encountered.
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Jerry in your Picasa3 you can use different sizes of pictures. The best would be the smallest size.....I think it is 640 X 480 or the other way around....the smallest one try that for starters..........also take Horowitzians picture for example. Right click on top of the picture. This will open up a window...go to the bottom and click on properties. This shows Horowitzian's picture of 500 X 332 pixels. You can right click on any picture on the internet and grab the details of the photo under properties....

Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#650708 - 02/22/09 02:57 PM Re: Piano problems encountered.
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Are you having some problem on your end preventing it from working, do you think?[/b]

Uh huh.... ME... \:\(
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#650709 - 02/23/09 06:00 PM Re: Piano problems encountered.
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Thought I would bring this one back to life because I never got a chance to respond last week. Well, last Wednesday 3 new customers for tunings. Spent the time tuning, and the initial consulting that happens with new customers, so about 2 hours for each customer.

Well today I got all three cheques back in the mail NSF. One was a doctor who wrote a cheque on an account that does not even exist. Another is a person two blocks from my shop. You know I should be plenty angry about this but I am not. I guess the storm is coming in later.

Now what? $125.00 per tuning plus taxes, and now I have to stop other work and chase these people down.
By the time I get a dime it won’t be worth a nickel………Sometimes it is not the piano that is giving problems……

Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#650710 - 02/23/09 06:10 PM Re: Piano problems encountered.
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Man Dan, sorry to hear that. Some people have no morals at all do they? Maybe you can put a hold on their funds at their bank somehow?

My day: Arrived at my college to fix sticking keys on a Kawai GM-10. Fixed them and more and then discovered the pedal lyre on the Steinway B was coming unglued. Took it home. it is clamped and drying now..

Next: I run into a gal with more Steinway problems. 2 notes hitting at once. I find a whole bunch of them. Hammers had shifted from all of this dry weather and heavy use so, when the soft pedal was used, it was striking the neighbor's. Fixed this.

Next: I go tune two nice pianos across campus. HEY, no problems!!! Whaddayaknow?

Next: I go across the street to the other side of the campus to tune two more. Tuned them, find that the pedal lyre on another Kawai RX-3 is coming unglued too!!! Left that one. Will return later when I more time and my clamps are freed up...
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#650711 - 02/23/09 06:45 PM Re: Piano problems encountered.
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Thanks Jerry,

Can’t put a hold on funds that are non-existent. First time customers will not be very happy with themselves, and plenty embarrassed, so I don’t have to do too much.

You have to wonder though why they are new customers. Maybe they got told to buzz off by the last guy because of the same thing……

One thing about those college contracts they keep you busy with a variety of repairs. What is coming loose on the lyres is it the vertical stems or the plate under the pedals?

The reason I ask is if the repairs are out of site you might want to slip a couple of wood screws in too….not seen you know….like stealth screws….. ……

Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#650712 - 02/23/09 07:43 PM Re: Piano problems encountered.
Les Koltvedt Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/05
Posts: 3195
Loc: Canton, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by Silverwood Pianos:
... One was a doctor who wrote a cheque on an account that does not even exist. .
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com [/b]
My wife is an independent medical transcriptionist...we always have problems collecting from doctors in my world, they are the CHEAPIST bunch around...
_________________________
Les Koltvedt
LK Piano
Servicing the S. Eastern Michigan Area
PTG Associate

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#650713 - 02/23/09 10:57 PM Re: Piano problems encountered.
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
It's the wooden stems coming apart from the bottom or top of the lyre. On Kawai's, I don't think they use enough glue. The Steinway is a B and was built in 1961, rebuilt a few times since then but, first time the lyre came loose on that one. Plus, it is miserably dry in there at 21-22 % RH which doesn't help anything.
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#650714 - 02/23/09 11:05 PM Re: Piano problems encountered.
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21287
Loc: Oakland
 Quote:
Can’t put a hold on funds that are non-existent. First time customers will not be very happy with themselves, and plenty embarrassed, so I don’t have to do too much.
Writing a bad check is a serious thing. Here is a list of penalties in the states.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#650715 - 02/25/09 02:06 PM Re: Piano problems encountered.
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Today. Tuned a nice Yamaha C-7, replaced humidifier wicks. Sweet tuning piano..

Next: Drive to the college and returned the pedal lyre for the Steinway B with my son. Never could figure out how to get those damn things on by yourself with the braces n all. What a fricken pain. Anyway, with the two of us, done in 10 minutes.

Someone finds me in the college. More sticking keys on another Kawai K18. Another warped key slip.

Someone else finds me, "twanging notes when you play C and C# together with the sustaining pedal down." That's a new one on me. I giggled and said, is there actually music written like that as she was playing all sorts of no nonsense stupid sounding chording with 3 or 4 notes played together side by side. Maybe a new kind of rap crap? Sounded like a Chimp hopping around on the keys to me. "It only does it when you play it really hard and with the sustaining pedal down." I wanted to say, well, don't play it like that then. Play real music. But, I resisted...

Didn't fix it. Not enough time to do what that thing needed anyway. Voiced it down some but gee, if you play any piano THAT hard, it'll sound icky.

This afternoon, off. Have a Dentist appt. YUCK!
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1153967 - 02/27/09 02:34 PM Re: Piano problems encountered. [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
Josef Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 190
This week has been interesting.

I went to tune for a lady who had a great baldwin upright but insisted on telling me her life story as I worked.

A nice lady called me to work on her piano which was an Aeolian Vose and Sons console. She had to had it tuned in twenty years cause she stopped giving piano lessons on it. Four Strings broke in the pitch raise which I had fun splicing them cause I left my stringing kit at home. I am thankful to have a paint can opener to my rescue.

The real fun came when the dealer that I employed by is going out of business as of this week. The companies second store has been bleeding the company dry and now we can't keep up.

I got caught in the middle of a sale went arry because when the salesman and a snooty talkative teacher clashed over a nice Used Yamaha C3.

The rest of the week was spent reuglating and preping three grand pianos.

On the brighter note. I tuned a amazing Bosendorfer 9'2" grand and a Bosendorfer 52" upright this week.

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#1154084 - 02/27/09 05:09 PM Re: Piano problems encountered. [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
Scooters Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/03/09
Posts: 227
Loc: N.E. Montana
Just wondering,

Do you guys (and Gals) see funny characters in the text of the posts here on the forum? I wrote the Piano Forum contact email address asking about this but I'd like to know if you see them too?

Don't have any real stories yet. Still studying my R. Potter course. I retired from the phone company last year and thought I'd give this Piano Service buisness a go. In the Early '70's I was an apprentice until I landed a Tech job with MaBell. Worked there for 33 years. It will be nice to be self employed for a change.

I'm enjoying your stories though! I've never even seen a Boesendorfer. I do have the tech sheet and Regulation info. Very Very impressive write up! smile

Scooter
_________________________

Scott
Associate Member Piano Technicians Guild
RsgPianoService
We love to play BF2

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New Topics - Multiple Forums
casinitaly! Many happy returns of the day!
by malkin
07/29/14 08:30 AM
T.J. Rochford Piano, trying to uncover some history
by Mikey Bob
07/29/14 07:58 AM
How to study harmony through Bach
by ttttcrngyblflpp
07/29/14 07:58 AM
Gustav Lutz?
by MartaG
07/29/14 06:37 AM
Can anyone help me identify Bach's music in this soundtrack?
by WellTemperedPizza
07/29/14 05:30 AM
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