Hi Guys,

I've just tuned a Sojin 108. It wasn't tuned for the past 1 year. The A4 is 438Hz. So I decide to do a proper pitch raise back to 440.

Tried my best to set the pins right everytime...
But still gets called back, "sir can you come back to retune a few notes". Some of the unison is out. That means i haven't perfected my pin setting technique yet. I did some test blows, but not through i guess as it quite noisy and the family is watch TV.....

Is it normal to return after a few days?
Btw the customer is a grade 8 student.....
Any help and encouragement would be helpful.

Thanks

Are you tuning in Singapore, if so, I would have thought Sojin/Daewoos to be more stable in the tropics.
You might actually have set the pins perfectly and had ok unisons- it might be the string to hammer mating is not correct, which could cause one of the strings to vibrate in interference with the others, defeating your nice unison.
There is no such thing as a guarrantee'd tuning. Some pin blocks are too green and flexible, some pinblocks bleed water (especially tropical pianos that found there way to California).
If it was a 9 cent pitch raise, I would expect something to happen to the tuning. Its not because your not setting the pins, it because the owners are not buying enough piano service.

When I meet the customer, I make sure they know exactly how many cents the piano is off by, and if it needs a pitch raise, that they should be tuning it more often, and that it takes a few tunings to stabilize it. If they don't know what cents are, I explain it in whatever technical depth they are up to understanding. If they are rocket scientists (we have a lot of those here), I give them the physics of it. Mathemeticians and engineers get the spiel about the 12th root of two. If they are accountants, I use percentages.
After a pitch raise, I would let at least a few more notes to go out of tune, let the strings stretch to get the kinks out.
After all 438Hz is severe. The burden should be on the owner, not on you! You're probably doing great work if you can stand to tune with TV in the background. I wouldn't allow it!! If something else is happening, I just say that I will need some silence in order to complete the tuning, especially once you get into the treble!

Also, by the way, how many passes did you do in your pitch raise, and are you overpulling?

Greetings, thanks for the favorable reply. Indeed the pins are quite easy to tune. Oh no.. i did it in 1 pass. I would humbly admit my lack of PR in this instance. But this sojin sounds nice, as usual, it had a "voice by world class..." After i learn that one of the user is grade8, i didn't dare to play any music pieces - lack of courage and confidence... hehehe

Anyway is the % of pitch raise cal as 440/12 = Hz per semitone = 36.6Hz. 2Hz raise = 2/36.6 = 5.4%?

Thanks


Tunelab saves the day.....

Calculate frequency ratios to cents here http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-centsratio.htm

The pitch raise percent or "cent" is 100 equal tempered divisions of the semitone, or 1200 equal tempered divisions of the octave.
As frequency is on a logarithmic scale, the factor for semitones is 2^(±1/12), positive power series for ascending and negative for descending In terms of cents 2^(±(1/1200)^cents)).
By my calculator, 438Hz is almost 8 cents flatter than 440Hz. To overpull, you would raise the pitch above your target by 5-40% (1 to 3 cents) in your first rough tuning, which can be done as fast as possible without going for perfect unisons. Then in the second pass, you will be closer to 0 cents, and really spend the time to focus on fine tuning. Overpull less in the bass and more in the treble.

No matter your performance skill level, its good to play for any customer, at least something to highlight the qualities of your tuning. I always hear my tuning when I play piano, but when I listen to someone else play it, the sound is much more relaxed. All the more reason to trade tunings for lessons with piano teachers and practice!

tunings after a pitch raise won't last,.. the strings will always hide some tension or slack,.

After i touch up the slight disonance, the piano sounded nice. I did play some bach this time.

But customer remark about strange twang and wowing on the bass(single wound) and G5 , "harmonics". I then know what we are talking about now. It's 10 years old(although still nice to me), the hammers impact areas are flaten and some are misalign. I explain about it and somehow got through it.

Another thing i notice is the hard harmonics sounds more obvious when the to lid is open.. hehehe that's the culprit.....

Thanks for all the good tips, i'm much encouraged.

If you make more than a slight change in the pitch of a string, you have to be very certain that the tension of the non-speaking portion of the string is equalized. Strong blows while setting the pin help. Sometimes you need to overshoot and go back, so if you start at too low a pitch, you need to go over pitch, back down, and to the final pitch. Learning the proper way to do these things are what makes a good piano tuner.

Indeed. Great advice!
I believe that'll take a considerable amount of time.

BDB, what's a reasonable tuning duration for a typical pitch raise like 438 to 440? The Sojin took me 2.5hrs + 1.0hr(PR, after sales service)..

Thks

It depends. Pianos vary, and so do the abilities of tuners. The time you took was reasonable.

A perfect opportunity to sell your hammer re-shaping and voicing services.

That's what i had in mind ....
I getting ready my table-tennis bat...

I have a related question about determining how many cents a piano is flat (or sharp). Obviously, if you are using, say, a Verituner, you can see immediately the number of cents flat or sharp, but when you are tuning aurally how do you tell?

When it's your serve, point out that the hammer shaping alone won't give the desired results. It's the subsequent regulation and attention to detail in this phase that makes the piano play with expression. This is atleast 5 hours of work to 2 days. Yamaha told me a week to properly regulate and voice one of their pianos.

You cannot effectively voice without regulating first. So shape the hammers, this takes me two hours. This is when I teflon the knuckles and Mclube the jacks and rep levers and let off toe. Then check key level and dip, Yamaha is 10 mm dip. If that is good or can be fixed by bedding the frame properly, Take 4 hours off the two days. Now you still have to set blow distance which will mean the jack position needs to be set. Check rep lever height. Let off gets moved so drop has to follow. Checking distance will be low so set that. If you are lucky the rep springs will be right.
Review; You are setting blow distance, jack position, let off, drop, and checking on 88 notes. Then make a refinement pass.

You might get it done in 8 hours. Good luck!

Then start thinking about voicing the hammers.

Hello Snoopy

If some of the hammers are mis-aligned, this will cause a problem with the tuning....they must be hitting the srings exactly in the middle, exactly at the same time(on each string of a bi- or tri-chord)and exactly square to the strings. Try travelling ans spacing the hammers first, and then voice if you must.
Also, I would recommend NOT trying to do a pitch raise in one pass.....take 30mins and do a really quick rough pass first, raising the pitch slightly, followed by a fine tuning.
Also.....can you really tune the piano adequately with the TV going? Consider asking the family politely to give you some quiet so you may do your job for them to the best of your ability.

Best Regards

Mark

Mark, I totally disagree with you on the pitch raise. In response to a post about breaking strings on a pitch raise, Most of the guys on the Caut list say to go all the way to the overpull calculation on the first pass. I do this regularly with no problem.

The hammers need to be shaped before trying to mate them to the string.

Keith......sorry....i didnt explain properly. I think to pull sharp on first pass also....but any pitch raise I have done like this always needs another pass....a fine tune.....as the strings settle.Well...it's how I was trained to do it anyway.

Regards

Yes sire.. point noted - otherwise it'll wobble . I'd also need to align the hammer face too - if it doesn't look twisted first.

You guys really did contribute good information!! i'm filled with excitment to take up more challenges.

Otherwise it will wobble????

Shaped means to file and remove the string grooves. Then regulate the action, then voice to string.

got it, thanks a lot. yes i meant, i'd have to reshape the hammer face before realignment. otherwise the groove face cannot hit the strings properly..

Hi Keith,

Good advice, but I think the Sojin 108 is an upright...

Dave

Snoopycar,

You're right. The grooves need to go before hammer alignment happens.

After you get the hammers aligned,you'll want to mate them to the strings to ensure even contact with each string of the unison. On an upright this can be realitively quick and simple.

I simply place a strip of medium grit (usually 600) sandpaper between the string and hammer--facing the hammer of course!-- then push the hammer to the string. I drag the paper out and back toward me while firmly holding the hammer against the string. This method usually works pretty well if the hammers are shaped decently.

Now if I could only figure out how to do this method in a grand....

If the piano has gone untuned for a long time, the customer cannot expect it to be stable immediately, especially if he/she is a hard player.

Speaking of pitch raises and Singapore, I just tuned a Broadwood upright that spent its first 40 years or so in Singapore before moving to California. Needless to say, the piano was flat by a fair margin. And there was this weird metal filing/fungus-y looking stuff up near the pressure bar/tuning pin area. It was hard to tell what planet that stuff was from!

Other than breaking 2 strings, the pitch raise went pretty well. One of the strings was a single hitch-pin loop jobber way down in the understrung wire section.

Needless to say, a fine-tuning was not forthcoming on that particular day!

Nice tips, thanks alot guys!!

Dave: any pics of the Broadwood piano?
It must be very special for it to be ship to the US. Is it with the same owner?

Well breaking 2 out of 200++ string is not bad... Brave level 10 !!

Snoopy,

It's a nice piano, but it's tired. It is with the original owner, whose kids played it when they were little, and now they're doctors.

I wouldn't call it special, but it certainly is to her, though her willingness to pay for services rendered wouldn't make one think so....

No pics. It's not fancy, sort of a typical English upright, dark brown mahogany. Understated like many of the Knights that I've seen.

wow! very inspiring to know there are still many people who treasure pianos.. thanks