Hello all, long time lurker and first time poster here. I have sent an email to both M&H and Renner to find out if I could buy a brand new action with keys and keyframe for a 1915 M&H model A6. This piano is owned by a local festival. It has been very badly rebuilt about 20 years ago. The tuning pins actually lean 7 degrees towards the back of the piano and are touching the webbing. It actually takes me more than 2 hours to tune it. ( I can usually tune a decent piano within an hour)The tuning never holds for much more than 2 weeks. The action is very worn, I cannot identify the hammers that were used to replace the originals, and the geometry is completely out. I could probably rebuild it, but the directors are pretty much sold on a new action. I will obviously be replacing the pinblock, probably with a Bolduc. Do any of you know if M&H or Renner sell complete actions for this model and how much I can be expected to pay? Both companies have not answered my email. Thanks

Grandpianoman, I just got your PM. I tried to reply but your mailbox is full. Thanks for the advice and I will wait for your info. The bass strings on the piano now are not original and I have a feeling that the scaling is not right on them. My local suplier in Montreal (pianophile)has software that will rescale any bass section if you send them a rubbing. I have have had great success with them in the past and intend to try them first. Thanks again.

Sorry about that, I just emptied out some of the old messages, it should work now.

As soon as I can get you that info, will send it to you.

GP

I can easily see the need for replacing action parts (whippens, hammers shanks etc.) on a 90+ yr old piano that has already been poorly restored. However, I'm curious, what problems have you found with the keys and keyframe that require their replacement?

Yes, I second Rich's opinion. It sounds like the best fit for you might be to find someone who would take your old action and completely recondition it, replacing worn parts as necessary.

Usually the keys, keyframe, action brackets, and rails are worth keeping, even if the wips, hammers, and shanks aren't. Even geometry problems can be corrected, sometimes just with capstan and knuckle positioning.

--Cy--

Quite often old keysets have gotten gappy, have worn center rail pin holes making them "pully", have bushing mortises that are distorted from previous tech work (or just the wood changing dimension), and in any case need to be reweighted when new wips, shanks, and hammers are put in, which almost never weigh the same as the originals.

Sometimes the capstans need to be slightly repositioned as well.

So there's a pretty good argument to be made for having a new keyset made in a lot of old pianos.

Yes, Brick, that is about the condition of those keys. Also, the board of directors is made up of teachers and accomplished players who are all sold on Renner. I could keep the key frame and rails and buy new whippens, shanks, hammers and keys, but at that point might as well get the whole thing right? I'm just surprised that neither Renner or M&H have answered my email. I just want to compare the cost of labour to rebuild as opposed to a new action. Thanks all.

If the keyframe is still in good condition, then I don't know that I'd say you 'might as well' This is a LOT of very specialized work, and if you don't already have a substantial amount of experience in this area, I'd be hesitant to try for the first time on a clients piano.

Renner, to my knowledge, does not sell keysets, keyframes and action rails.

My impression is that the M&H e-mail goes to PianoDisc in California. I think I e-mailed them once and it took a while to get a response. I had much better luck looking up their phone numbers on the website and calling them. You get voice mail, but the few times I've called they've called me back within a few hours.

Renner does not make keyframes or key sets. They do make completed action stacks and back actions for many manufacturers.
M&H used Renner parts, they never used the standard Renner action stack, but made one per M&H's design.
The Renner factory in Germany will not answer your e-mail. They will only supply large orders to the manufacturers, not to piano techs. For North America you must contact www.rennerusa.com for info or parts orders.
By the way, the cost of a new keyset, key frame, action stack, all new parts, plus new hammers of your choice, will put you in the $8,000 range.

For less that $100.00 you can get a Tokiwa kit from Pacific Piano supply that has all the different sizes of whippens, hammer shanks and whip heals. They will refund your money if you buy a set of whips and shanks from them.
You can get the same kit from Renner USA for $250.00 and they will also refund if you buy the same parts plus their hammers.
Then you can use the samples to get the correct parts for your action. YOu will need to do some experimenting to solve geometry problems.
PianoTek as well as Roseland Piano in Oregon will make an entire new key set for you to include new balance rail and front rail pins and keys. If you talk with Bob Marinelli or Rick Wheeler they will give you prices and can advise you about solving geometry problems. Much of this can be done with new keys.
They will also put new back checks and capstans and key buttons and action cloth and key tops on for you if you want. Might even lead the keys if they know what parts you will use.
Then all you should need do is the assembly and regulation.
I would doubt that you can just purchase a new action - let alone one that would fit without lots of custom work.

Thank you very much Scutch, that is exactly the kind of info I was looking for. Thanks to everyone else too. I actually prefer keeping the original keyframe.

You might consider swinging in and visiting Andre' Bolduc.

He is in Quebec.

Outstanding Reutation

Yes I know André, I have visited his shop a few times over the years and have been using his pinblocks for just as long. Thanks.

Does "accordeur" mean "tuner"?

--Cy--

Yes it does, I'm french Canadian. Thanks for asking.

I'm trying to learn all the Spanish names for piano parts. In Spanish, a tuner is an "afinador".

Keys are "teclas", not "llaves".

And it was bad enough learning the Steinway names for parts! :-)

--Cy--

Hi, and pinblock....clavijero...and pins...clavijas