Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum RCT users..what would you do....

I will be tuning a friends 1898 Chickering upright, one of the tall ones, at lease 54-58 inches...it's going to need a pitch raise for sure...what OTS would you use? Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

Have you ever repaired or replaced broken strings? It sounds like you may be running a risk, if you significantly raise the pitch on something that old -- even just tuning it, really. Be sure you check the condition of the strings and bridges, especially looking for cracks around the bridge pins.

I know you've been tuning your own piano for quite awhile, but maybe this job is risky enough, and will be unfamiliar enough, for you to suggest a pro to your friend? Chickerings to me are special enough to think this way.

But, if you do choose to go ahead, I'd probably try OTS 4, but use Custom Partials to change the partial read in the A0-A1 octave to 10 -- for starters anyway. That's personal taste, but it would also mean you'd be raising the low bass strings less (safer). I'd be hesitant to use any overpull in the bass at all, and if the piano's fairly flat I might first try tuning it to A435 or so, maybe being content to leave it there. I know some on here would advocate going straight for A440, but, especially since you haven't done this much, I see that as unnecessary risk -- especially if your friend doesn't need it exactly at A440.

Maybe some of the pins are too loose to hold standard pitch as they are anyway. You won't know that until you get into it a bit.

The condition of the piano and strings tell so much about what to do in this situation, as would your willingness and ability to change and/or repair strings.

Again, G-man, you may want to refer this one to someone else and watch. Just my thoughts.

Jeff

I would set the pitch at A435 and use the regular pitch raise program. It's a Chickering. Make sure it has a full plate if you think you should go for 440.

I would use OTS 3 or 4 and set for A435. Check the conditions of the bridges and do the bass with no overpull, reduce the treble overpull cap to 20 cents and reduce the overall % by 3-4%. I generally run RTC at - 2% anyways since it almost always leaves me sharp. You will need a second pass before fine tuning but this should be safer. I did a similar aged upright a while back (1905)that was more than a tone flat and I opted to strip mute and do the center string and 1 string of the bichord first, quickly pull up the unisons after by ear and then run the pitch raise after. I have always felt uncomfortable with loading the bridges/soundboard fully from one end to the other in one shot like these programs require you to.

I feel the same way Emmery, if the pitch raise is a big one. I only do an A0 and up ETD pitch raise on a solid late model instrument. I often wouldn't use the bass overpull anyway. G-Man, be sure you examine the plate carefully before you start, to see if there are any cracks, like around the tenor-treble break. On an old piano I'll often use the strip mute "anticipated drop" system (pretty much what Emmery describes, except it pitch raises all strings on the long bridge first (tenor and treble) center string then the others, and does the bass last, going down, one string of the bichords first. But when I do that it's usually by ear, and no overpull in the bass.

Pitch raising is such a delicate and risky thing, it's hard to cover everything that individual pianos will suggest. Lube the upper termination points with ProTek, if you can, especially if there's rust, but use just a little and don't allow it to creep onto the tuning pins or the bass string windings.

When you sample with RCT, take enough time to get all the variances below .10 if you can. Sometimes the treble gets overly high, and I suspect that may have something to do with poor sampling, particularly on A5.

Jeff

Thanks for all your suggestions!

I did not see them till after I tuned the piano.

It turned out ok, thankfully. If I ever do an old piano like that again, I will def use all of your suggestions. I only broke one string, and that was note 88. When I was on note 87, I commented to my friends that I had never broken a string.....LOL...note 88, the string broke at the tuning pin!!......murphys's law

I did use OTS 4, 440, and used Smart Tune with the standard overpull....so I lucked out as far as breaking strings. I was taught to let the sting go flat a bit before bringing it up to pitch, especially on older pianos...that prob saved me.

After taking the front off, it's not a Checkering, but a "Cornish", serial # 9132 puts it at around 1898. It has 4 pedals....it's a nicely carved case in Ebony. Looking up "Cornish" in the Pierce Atlas, turns out it was a mail order company, building organs at first, then pianos.

It could use a complete rebuild, but they can't afford it. The tuning turned out ok, the bass notes are very tubby, strings are somewhat rusty, and the hammers are as hard as rocks. It was not so far off that RCT was asking for a Pitch raise. It was last tuned about 4 years ago, and at that time, the tech used Krazy Glue on the pinblock. I will def take all your suggestions next time, if there is a next time I was helping them out, single mom raising a kid, she could not afford a pro tuning..the kid takes piano lessons every week, so it get's used.....thanks for the suggestions!

Emmery and Jeff and whoever else, have you tried tuning RCT in Smart mode yet? It's a fantastic addition and during pitch raises from 435 it will bring it very close! Much MUCH better than the regular pitch raise mode..

G-Man,

Glad things worked out fairly well for you. I've never seen you talk about tuning anything except your grand, so I was wondering if you'd ever tuned a vertical before. With the very different hammer technique, that was another reason I was concerned about string breakage.

Maybe it's best you didn't read all our cautionary remarks before you tuned it -- might've just made you choke.

Jerry,

Yeah, Smart Tune is fantastic, particularly the new updated version that just came out a few weeks ago. Is that the one you're using? I like the new one better at least, but I notice the overpull numbers are a bit higher, at least in spots. I think the overpull numbers change more as you go up, too. If you really liked the first version, I wonder if you'll end up liking the new one as much. Didn't you say once that RCT's pitch raises often were too sharp for you? I didn't find that to be true all that much for me, so maybe our different techniques influence that or something.

You may remember that the first RCT version with Smart Tune changed the Pitch Raise mode overpull numbers for some reason, I think lowering them to the same as Smart Tune. For me, that was too little overpull for a lot of pitch raises. I was glad when this new version came out a few weeks ago and changed that. I haven't really used the new version enough yet to take note of the exact differences that now exist between Pitch Raise's overpull and Smart Tune's.

I haven't tried the new Smart Tune version on anything approaching 20 cents flat yet, so I can't really comment on that; but in the 5 to 10 cent range, maybe with the treble dropping off to 15 or so, Smart Tune often has done tolerable one pass tunings for me. I think that's an incredible asset to have -- hard to overstate that, really.

That guy Dean is constantly working on something, isn't he? I bought RCT around October of '07, and I think I've downloaded three updates so far.

Jeff

LOL, you're right Jeff, I would most certainly have choked!

That's correct, I have only tuned grands since I started tuning for myself and friends...this was the first upright. Had never broken a string until this upright, but it was in the worst shape I have ever seen a piano in. It's a lot different having to stand there for hours pulling etc. My hat's off to you pros out there, it's not an easy task!

I sure hope Don G. perfects his self-tuning piano device, as I would relish the thought of just pushing a button and having my piano tuned perfectly.

Jeff, no, not yet. I'm still using the original version of Smart Tune. Very satisfied with it. Dean has been inundated with questions and emails about it too. Usually, I just drive out to his house and have him update it for me, it's free. He lives only 15 minutes away from me but, I thought I'd let him work out the email answers and other stuff before I bothered him with my update.

Yes, the "regular" pitch raise mode almost always raises it up to far and the lower mode likewise so, like Emmery, I've always had to either + or - it by 2 % and that still, was no guarantee that it would wind up where it should be especially on Kawai's for some reason.

This whole week, I was tuning 5 a day, all, Kawai's at the college I service for here. Smart tune mode worked perfect for that. I found that I could do a fine tune with it in one pass at the same time. Sometimes, only touching up a few here and there. Saves a tremendous amount of time for sure.

I use Smart Tune for 20 cents flat and sometimes more. It still brings it up pretty darned close.

Try doing a fine tuning with it on a piano that is around 435 or, 432 once. See how you like the outcome.

I have the full version or RCT and was told several months ago that the Smart Tune wouldn't be ready for it till late in the year. It kind of peeved me a bit since you pay more for the full version and then feel dissed when they push their update priorities to the palm version they sell more of...oh well ...so turns the wheels.
Either way, the pitch raise has worked pretty good for me once you do about 50 pianos with it and get the feel for what needs tweaking.