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#655486 - 10/31/08 08:20 AM Why are their only 7 notes?
Prima Vista Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/28/08
Posts: 22
Loc: Israel
It is known that Pythagoras has found that harmony exist in 12 notes and that if we choose the 13th voice we end up back to the start.

But what i am asking is how come out of 12 notes system, we actually use only 7 at our most common scales.
Why not 8, 9 or 6?
How come harmony take place only in 7 notes system?
How did Pythagoras found this?

Any ideas...
_________________________
www.PrimaVistaNotes.com

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#655487 - 10/31/08 11:42 AM Re: Why are their only 7 notes?
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11162
Loc: Canada
Prima Vista, the best way to get at the answer is to study music history and also study theory. I started to do that last year and it has been enormously beneficial. I don't think there is a shortcut answer however, because to understand the answer you have to have accumulated some knowledge - at least I had to.

I've used the RCM theory book (Wharram), Dolmetschonline and a light history book that fell into my hands. Can anyone recommend something more suitable?

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#655488 - 10/31/08 12:35 PM Re: Why are their only 7 notes?
eromlignod Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/04/04
Posts: 379
Loc: Kansas City
I'll try to explain it concisely without confusing you.

The musical notes arise because of the overtones of naturally-vibrating objects. Most musical instruments are designed to "resonate", which means that the sound forms some form of standing wave that we perceive as a musical note with a distinctive timbre. That's why middle-C sounds like the same pitch on a piano as it does on a saxophone, yet the two instrments have a different sound.

With natural resonance comes specific, mathematical harmonics. Musical instruments tend to vibrate as a series of harmonics that occur at the fundamental pitch and its multiples. So if you play A-440 on the piano, it will have harmonics* of

440
2 x 440 = 880
3 x 440 = 1320
4 x 440 = 1760
5 x 440 = 2200
etc...

Virtually all musical instruments have these same, natural harmonics in varying relative volumes. Believe it or not, it is these harmonics that lead to the 12-notes of music.

Consonance and dissonance of a two-note interval can be easily shown by how many harmonics "match up" between them. The more matching harmonics, the more consonant the interval sounds.

Octaves sound like the same note because the lower note literally contains the upper one. Every harmonic, including the fundamental, of the upper note is part of the lower one. No other interval displays this characteristic. This is why it has the same sound and this is why melodies sound the same in any octave: because they still have the same mathematical relationship to that "inner note". So a fifth sounds the same as an octave + a fifth.

The interval of a "fifth" sounds consonant because one out of every three of the lower-note harmonics match the upper one. By "matching" I mean that they are literally the same pitch sine wave and match exactly. If you made the musical note artificially by playing sine waves out of individual speakers for each harmonic of both notes the matching harmonics between the notes would be identical and a third of the speakers would be playing the identical wave, even though the notes have two separate pitches.

Now, what does that have to do with twelve notes? Well, if you go another fifth above the higher note, then another fifth above that, and so on, you will eventually reach a note that is an even number of octaves above the first. This occurs after you have produced twelve new notes. Working backwards by including the octaves of these notes you produce the entire Western musical gamut (neglecting the syntonic comma**). Why the fifth? Because it is the most consonant interval other than the octave and the twelve-tone scale allows you to get it between any two notes.

Within these new notes we accidentally created other mathematical consonant intervals with differing numbers of matching harmonics and thus varying degrees of consonance or dissonance. Using these new intervals, we can create the major triad, which is a very useful, consonant chord. Based on this chord and its use in music the diatonic scale evolved as a handy way to break music up into diatonic keys and a whole system of notation and chord theory.

It is because of this mathematical relationship of the harmonics that music is based on ratios rather than differences in pitch and thus why the pitches of the gamut turn out to be exponential.

Hope this Helps.

*You "inharmonicity guys": give it a rest. I'm talking theoretically. Please don't confuse the poor guy.

**Trying to keep it simple kids. Give us a break on the arcane ET stuff for this discussion.

Don
Kansas City

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#655489 - 10/31/08 12:57 PM Re: Why are their only 7 notes?
Prima Vista Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/28/08
Posts: 22
Loc: Israel
You have not answered my question.

We have 12 notes that were build up the way you have mentioned.

You write:

"Based on this chord and its use in music the diatonic scale evolved as a handy way to break music up into diatonic keys and a whole system of notation and chord theory."

Why do you choose just 7 to build up your scale and not 8?
_________________________
www.PrimaVistaNotes.com

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#655490 - 10/31/08 01:07 PM Re: Why are their only 7 notes?
Betty Patnude Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/07
Posts: 4896
Loc: Puyallup, Washington
Prima Vista,

There are 7 white notes: A B C D E F G
There are 5 black notes: Group of 2, Group of 3

Think in enharmonics: The same note, same sound, different name.

Play chromatically by half steps.


There 12 half steps within one octave of C’s.
Actually there are 12 half steps within ANY octave. The 13th half step (or 8th letter name)is a duplicate (octave) of the first letter name - a stopping point, a conclusion.

C# D# F# G# A#
C | D | E | F | G | A | B
Db Eb Gb Ab Bb

Review: Group of 2 Black Notes Enharmonically Spelled
C# = Db
D# = Eb

Review: Group of 3 Black Notes Enharmonically Spelled
F# = Gb
G# = Ab
A# = Bb

Additionally, Adjacent White Keys are Enharmonically Spelled
E = Fb
F = E#

And, Adjacent White Keys are Enharmonically Spelled
B = Cb
C = B#

At this point every key on the piano within the C octave has been spelled with natural names (A-G) and (b)flat names, and (#)sharp names.

7 # names
7 natural names
7 b names
____________
21 key locations BUT 7 of them have #/b names at the same time - subtract 7 from 21 = 14. Now look at the Circle of 5ths, and you will see 1-7 o'clock (clockwise) and 5-12 o'clock (counterclockwise) with 3 overlapping at the bottom of the clock.

This is where I think you will understand what I am saying.

Your question is : How come we actually use only 7 at our most common scales. Why not 8, 9 or 6?

Do you still have the question?

I hope you can determine the answer by reading (printing) this resource and thinking through at the piano on it. I made no attempt to answer it as notation on the grand staff.

I hope you were able to stay with me throughout the explanation - without human interaction in person, this is not easy to communicate on this forum.

I hope everyone gets something from this post as it was time consuming to write it out for you ;\) but my pleasure.

Betty

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#655491 - 10/31/08 01:19 PM Re: Why are their only 7 notes?
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
This is from Prima Vista\'s website :
 Quote:
Inventor of the Prima Vista Notes.[/b]
Ophir Atar – Piano player, music theorist and a game inventor.
It might be wise to read the Reading piano notes -easy or hard thread in its entirety before devoting time and effort to a response here to what seems on its face to be an earnest question.

Maybe the question is in fact sincere, but it invites a deeper question: why is it necessary to explain music theory to a music theorist?

From Piano Industry Pros - READ THIS :
 Quote:
Stop the Self-Promotion![/b]
It is NOT ACCEPTABLE[/b] for you to create posts thinly disguised as an innocent discussion when in fact they are nothing more than a promotion for your business.
Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#655492 - 10/31/08 01:20 PM Re: Why are their only 7 notes?
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11162
Loc: Canada
 Quote:
You have not answered my question.
It's been answered in the other thread you created. other thread - similar question

Oops - Steven, we posted at the same time.

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#655493 - 10/31/08 02:55 PM Re: Why are their only 7 notes?
Betty Patnude Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/07
Posts: 4896
Loc: Puyallup, Washington
Prima Vista,

Being baited to fulfill your advertising agenda to your web site is an ethical problem in my opinion. It certainly is having a hidden agenda on your part. This is also against policy in PWF. You stand the advantage to dupe any one interested in the subject. I wish I had recognized this before posting. Your tactics are not appreciated.

Betty Patnude

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#655494 - 11/01/08 11:41 AM Re: Why are their only 7 notes?
Prima Vista Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/28/08
Posts: 22
Loc: Israel
I am not promoting anything here and if Steven decided that... well - his wrong!!!
I put this question only because it interest me here and MR. sotto voce has post it forward to the other forum to show some of his points.

So dear Betty,
Thanks for your explanation.
It is a bit hard to understand when not face to face but...

Your answer starts with the fact that there are 7 notes at the beginning. Then your explanation relay on that.
The circle of 5th could present 12 notes using 12 different names just the same.
Still i am asking: Why 7 notes where chosen at that point.

And some thing else:
It is known that the modes before Pythagoras were very similar to the modes Pythagoras has found due to his discover.
How did they know that before him? Was he just proving some thing they knew before him?
As history points out the number 7 was a 'strong' number and made a beautiful relaxing scales that musicians could make music out of it.

What i say is that there must be a different mathematical explanation to the 7 notes system.

And that is what I am looking for.
_________________________
www.PrimaVistaNotes.com

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#655495 - 11/01/08 11:48 AM Re: Why are their only 7 notes?
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11162
Loc: Canada
Prima Vista, have you looked at the explanation in the other thread as per my previous post?

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#655496 - 11/01/08 12:49 PM Re: Why are their only 7 notes?
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Prima Vista:
What i say is that there must be a different mathematical explanation to the 7 notes system.[/b]
You hold yourself out to be a music theorist (and I'm still waiting for answers about your education and qualifications).

What are your own theories, then?

How do they account for non-Western musical systems in which scales are organized differently and octaves divided differently?

FWIW, Mr. sotto voce didn't broach this topic of scales and modes in the other forum, and, while Steven may have an opinion about whether a marketing agenda is being pursued here, he doesn't get to make that decision.

But moderators do—and one of them has already stated that a warning has been given. As mentioned previously, "posts thinly disguised as an innocent discussion when in fact they are nothing more than a promotion for your business" are no more acceptable here than overt advertising.

So, when a music theorist asks questions that evince a lack of familiarity of the fundamentals of music theory, what is one to conclude about motive? If you're a theorist, your questions make no sense; if you're not a theorist, you shouldn't be saying so on your website and giving unfounded credibility to your product.

Consider your very first post at Piano World:
 Quote:
Originally posted by icanpiano:
Hi all,

Check this out. I found this web site with a new approach to piano notes.
It should make life easer to most pianists.

www.PriamVistaNotes.com [/b]
What motive does that suggest? After you were called on the brazenness of that tactic, you changed your name and returned with this post :
 Quote:
Originally posted by Prima Vista:
Well Well Well...

Got my self a new name so it will be 'pure' to start over again.

Dear friendly members.
I am new here and sorry if it was a pitch of some kind.

[...]

If you feel i have tried to sell or advertise something then i apologize. You may complaint and ask to take these massages out of the forum....[/b]
Has your motive changed, then?

You invited people to complain if they felt you were engaging in a marketing ploy. Why would you now say "if Steven decided that... well - his wrong!!!"? Without question, I would have made my opinion clear in any case—but you asked for it!

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#655497 - 11/01/08 01:13 PM Re: Why are their only 7 notes?
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11162
Loc: Canada
 Quote:
What i say is that there must be a different mathematical explanation to the 7 notes system.
Since you're a theoretician, what are your thoughts? Can you extend them past the piano since the notation system was not created for any one instrument?

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#655498 - 11/01/08 02:08 PM Re: Why are their only 7 notes?
Gary D. Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4645
Loc: South Florida
 Quote:
Originally posted by eromlignod:
I'll try to explain it concisely without confusing you.
For the benefit of others, let's go with your idea, but make it even simpler.

C D E F G A B C

Harmonic series: C, C, G, C, E, G, Bb, C, D, E etc.
Harmonic series: G, G, D, G, B, D, F, G, A, B etc.

Brass players need to know this series backwards, since we play so many notes with the same fingering, using only our lips.

By looking at the series coming from the 1st and 5th notes of any scale, anyone should be able to see fairly easily where the notes represented by letters came from.
_________________________
Piano Teacher

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#655499 - 11/01/08 07:00 PM Re: Why are their only 7 notes?
Prima Vista Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/28/08
Posts: 22
Loc: Israel
Come on steven - give it a break...
Let us be friends \:\)

Keystring
You wrote
"Historically there was a philosophy of things being in balance, a kind of idealism around the time of the Greeks. That leads into modes which precede our music. There is this lovely balance in any major scale which actually consists of two equal sides. It goes a bit like this: You'll know that W = whole tone, H = half tone, and that the major scale goes:
*WWHWWWH.
If you imagine the one W as a kind of bridge between two halves you get
WWH(W)WWH
See? Same thing on either side. This in a sense is the history behind why our notes are divided up the way they are now."

It's a nice way to put it. The philosophic of the Greeks do lead to calm and relaxing music for the mind and soul but this idea suggest that they where finding the modes by looking for symmetric idea or maybe even trail and error.
Pytagorass was a man of numbers and i a wonder how numbers can go here.

So...my idea for this issue.

I assume that before Pythagoras the Greeks knew about the Octave. I assumes that because it is known that there were modes similar to what was found by Pythagoras and also because an octave is easy to recognize by the ear.
Now - if you have an octave you can fill it with many notes and create music. 2,7,9,12,13 or any other number...

But what will give me the best music? How would I know?

I will use the number 12 as an example:

First I draw a clock that have 12 hours.
We can put numbers 1-12 on the clock.
But we can also put the number 1 at the 12 hour. Count 5 lines and put number 2 in the 5 hour.
Count 5 more and put number 3 in the 10 hour etc... etc..
Finally we will get all the 12 numbers in a different order.
We can do that using the number 7 as well.

So we can say that we have managed to number the clock in 3 different ways. Every 1, Every 5 and every 7.

This is what i call harmony in math.
And the numbers that work out are harmony numbers. In this case the harmony numbers are 5 and 7. (the number 1 is good for all circles so i don't count it as a harmonic number)

In other words 12/7 and 12/5 is a working fine in music.
Actually it is the only way It works.

Now, if the Greeks wanted to build up a 13 or 17 hour clock for an octave they could find the harmony numbers that is needed to fill it.

The assumption i make is that if a clock of 12 curry a harmony number of 7 then by picking up 7 notes we might get harmony.
The 7 notes can be picked up by order starting from the first one we draw.

This assumption is where i have a hole. I need a stronger mathematical connection there.

Any way we can pick up the first 7 no matter where we start.
If we do that - Start counting clockwise at 12 hour and mark it as 1, count 7 and mark the 7 hour as 2, count 7 more and mark the 2 hour as 3 etc.. up to 7 numbers we will get a circle with 7 marked notes out of 12.

If you look at the circle you will find interesting things.
The 7 notes that we marked representing our scale. Number 1 will be F for that matter and number 3 will be G and so on.
What we get is the Lydian mode.
This way we get the 7 modes.

If we look at the numbers of the marked notes starting from 1 we will see this:
1, 3, 5, 7, 2, 4, 6
These are all the degrees that make up the chords. 135, 246, 357 ….

Another interesting thing is that we've got the Lydian mode at first place.
In terms of harmony, if we play all the notes
1, 3, 5, 7, 2, 4, 6
we will have no harmonic collision. This is the only scale out of the 7 modes that all of the notes in that order can be play together.
In a way that might be the first mode.

As history point out the modes Pythagoras found sounded like some modes before him and I ask:
if they where formed out of math rather then physics then the modes might have sounded like what we here today. Not harmonic but out of an equation.

Did the Greeks had pop songs before 450AD \:\) ???
_________________________
www.PrimaVistaNotes.com

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#655500 - 11/01/08 07:37 PM Re: Why are their only 7 notes?
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11162
Loc: Canada
Prima - not that I know much about it - but are you coming from a jazz context by any chance?

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#655501 - 11/02/08 01:35 AM Re: Why are their only 7 notes?
Prima Vista Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/28/08
Posts: 22
Loc: Israel
Keystring - It's harmony - not just jazz.
Jazz harmony is more advance using 2 octaves to describe relations between notes (that's part of it) and classical is using one but what i describe here is before Jazz or classical. It is where it started and it can describe both jazz and classical because they are build up from the same stones.
_________________________
www.PrimaVistaNotes.com

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#655502 - 11/02/08 02:11 AM Re: Why are their only 7 notes?
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 20743
Loc: Oakland
The reason there were originally 7 notes is that if you start with a major triad, and add the notes of triads of the dominant and the subdominant, you get the 7 notes of the scale.

F-A-C (Triad of the subdominant)
C-E-G
G-B-D (Triad of the dominant)

That is sufficient for a lot of music.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#655503 - 11/02/08 05:22 AM Re: Why are their only 7 notes?
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11162
Loc: Canada
They didn't use harmony or triads originally. Those triads are essential and work within our modern scales, however.
 Quote:
That is where it started ...
No, it didn't. Harmony came many centuries later. If I'm mistaken I would like to be corrected.

PV, I asked whether your context and background might be jazz or non-classical. Obviously harmony is a major component of modern music. But the way or angle of approaching it can appear different.

I think that you wrote about modes and harmony in one breath while looking at the history of modes. That is what puzzled me.

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#655504 - 11/02/08 05:38 AM Re: Why are their only 7 notes?
Prima Vista Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/28/08
Posts: 22
Loc: Israel
Yes Bob - but that does not explain the same 7 notes modes that the Greeks were using before the discovery of the 12 notes harmony and overtone.

I suggest there was another way of finding those modes and it is not on the physics side.

Keystring - Harmony was in use many years after but it was there from the beginning although it was not in use.
_________________________
www.PrimaVistaNotes.com

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#655505 - 11/02/08 05:48 AM Re: Why are their only 7 notes?
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11162
Loc: Canada
 Quote:
Keystring - Harmony was in use many years after but it was there from the beginning although it was not in use.
You will have to define what you mean by harmony.

Please define in a lot more detail. Please explain how the music was created and toward what in each period. How did the Greeks use it? What about the early church in the Middle Ages? What did their music consist of? If harmony involves a tonal centre, how did it figure in the period before tonic music?

I don't understand what you are saying by what you wrote.

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#655506 - 11/02/08 05:50 AM Re: Why are their only 7 notes?
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11162
Loc: Canada
 Quote:
I suggest there was another way of finding those modes and it is not on the physics side.
What is your suggestion?

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#655507 - 11/02/08 06:29 AM Re: Why are their only 7 notes?
RogerW Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 430
This thread is so full of false assumptions... The answer to the question is so long and complicated that I'm not going to bother to write it all out, but if you read AND Understand the following articles, you should be able to figure it out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_intonation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meantone_temperament
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagorean_tuning
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_temperament

As for your assumption that dividing the octave into 12 different notes is the only right way, here's some info on other useful equal temperaments:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/19_tone_equal_temperament
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/31_tone_equal_temperament
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/41_equal_temperament
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/72_equal_temperament

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#655508 - 11/02/08 07:08 AM Re: Why are their only 7 notes?
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by RogerW:
This thread is so full of false assumptions... [/b]
I believe they begin with the title itself. Why limit the discussion to Western music?

Although the OP invited complaints and questions, and I'm accused of unfriendliness for offering them, my questions remain unanswered. I'd like to know what the angle is here!

How can this be an innocent discussion? Why would a music theorist have these misunderstandings of, or make these erroneous assumptions about, music theory?

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#655509 - 11/02/08 07:19 AM Re: Why are their only 7 notes?
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11162
Loc: Canada
The sig on the bottom is a link to a paid product. Each post is potentially an advertisement.

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#655510 - 11/02/08 07:43 AM Re: Why are their only 7 notes?
David Jenson Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 1947
Loc: Maine
I think we devised the "western" scale by singing it. What sounded good in the human vocal range was decided long before math folks got interested. 'Sorry theorists.
_________________________
David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----

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#655511 - 11/02/08 08:43 AM Re: Why are their only 7 notes?
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11162
Loc: Canada
Here's a start:
History - Dolmetschonline It begins by covering other cultures as well, such as China.

I've been given a fascinating book called "Music in the Western World - a History in Documents" which is probably meant as a companion book to music study. It gives snapshots through the writings of people of the period as they argue and think their way through the trends of the day, with some small explanations. It's like being there.

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#655512 - 11/02/08 11:26 AM Re: Why are their only 7 notes?
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 20743
Loc: Oakland
Tuning triads has nothing to do with harmony. The strongest relationship of two notes is the octave, 2:1. The next strongest is the fifth, 3:2. The fourth is a cognate of that, 4:3. Then comes the major third, 5:4. These are the easiest intervals to tune. They arise naturally on horns. They can be played on bugles. You can make them on strings by making nodes.

Tuning three triads results in enough notes for all the Western ecclesiastical scales. It is not the equal-tempered scale, although it is similar. But you can still do a lot with just those notes.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#655513 - 11/02/08 03:35 PM Re: Why are their only 7 notes?
Betty Patnude Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/07
Posts: 4896
Loc: Puyallup, Washington
Mathematical and scientific it definitely is and not just from usage of humans in making music over time.

The solfeggio was in place by Guido d'Arezzo singing Gregorian Chant in early time.

Go back even earlier, folks! Antiquity calleth with the lute and the drum.

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#655514 - 11/03/08 07:30 AM Re: Why are their only 7 notes?
David Jenson Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 1947
Loc: Maine
"Go back even earlier, folks! Antiquity calleth with the lute and the drum." BP

You got that right! I've worked as a piano technician for 35+ years and played guitar on the side for relaxation. I was always fascinated by the versatility of the "western" scale in playing music, and had to deal with the mathematical complexities in my work as a piano tuner.

I got quite a shock when I finally decided to investigate origin of the 12-tone scale. Apparently, we just sang it. No music theorists pondered it. No Math types labored over it ... until later. We just opened our collective mouths and belted it out.
_________________________
David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
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#655515 - 11/03/08 07:35 AM Re: Why are their only 7 notes?
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11162
Loc: Canada
Are we discussing 12 tones or major and minor modes? Betty, did you mean to imply that since antiquity we simply sang and the scales just happened? David, are you refering to the major and minor scale as they exist now with the "7 notes" or the fact of the division of the 12 tones, the properties of P4 & P5 etc.?

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