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#65910 - 02/28/07 06:18 AM I called the Steinway factory in Astoria
music32 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/07/07
Posts: 1196
Loc: Berkeley, California
wanted to know their opinion of rebuilders around the country putting Renner hammers in vintage Steinways.. What is your take on this?.
The factory absolutely frowns upon the use of the Renner hammer in the NY Steinway.
The problem seems to be that a lot of techs can't properly deal with developing the Steinway hammer, so they need some kind of advice from the factory...instead of looking for shortcuts...
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#65911 - 02/28/07 07:37 AM Re: I called the Steinway factory in Astoria
CTPianotech Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/06/06
Posts: 1473
Loc: CT
 Quote:
The problem seems to be that a lot of techs can't properly deal with developing the Steinway hammer, so they need some kind of advice from the factory...instead of looking for shortcuts...
I hear some folks in Hamburg have the same problem......
_________________________
Rich Lindahl
Piano Restorations in Central CT
D-C installations, Player-Piano installations/service
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#65912 - 02/28/07 10:04 AM Re: I called the Steinway factory in Astoria
curry Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/02
Posts: 3769
Loc: Hamilton Twp, NJ
Too funny Rich \:D
_________________________
G.Fiore "aka-Curry". Tuner-Technician serving the central NJ, S.E. PA area. b214cm@aol.com Concert tuning, Regulation-voicing specialist.
Dampp-Chaser installations, piano appraisals. PTG S.Jersey Chapter 080.
Bösendorfer 214 # 47,299 214-358

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#65913 - 02/28/07 03:21 PM Re: I called the Steinway factory in Astoria
Keith D Kerman Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/03
Posts: 3314
Loc: Gaithersburg, MD (Washington D...
 Quote:
Originally posted by CTPianotech:
 Quote:
The problem seems to be that a lot of techs can't properly deal with developing the Steinway hammer, so they need some kind of advice from the factory...instead of looking for shortcuts...
I hear some folks in Hamburg have the same problem...... [/b]
Damn it! You stole my punchline! Nice one.
_________________________
Keith D Kerman
PianoCraft
Rebuilding & Sales of vintage and pre-owned Steinway and Mason & Hamlin
New Steingraeber, Estonia, Charles R. Walter, Brodmann, Feurich
www.pianocraft.net
http://www.youtube.com/user/pianocraftchannel/videos

keith@pianocraft.net 888-840-5460

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#65914 - 02/28/07 03:28 PM Re: I called the Steinway factory in Astoria
ASOP Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/08/06
Posts: 144
Loc: USA
Music32, did you ask the factory why its bad for a NY Steinway and good for a Hamburg?

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#65915 - 02/28/07 03:32 PM Re: I called the Steinway factory in Astoria
Keith D Kerman Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/03
Posts: 3314
Loc: Gaithersburg, MD (Washington D...
Now, the actual answer to this question. First of all, I have the option of using an official NY Steinway Hammer, an official Hamburg Steinway Hammer ( made by renner ), abel, Ronson or whatever in a NY Steinway rebuild. If Steinway New York is rebuilding a Steinway, they would be shooting themselves in the foot from a marketing point of view to do anything other than using a NY Steinway hammer.
Now, the answer to which hammer to use on a vintage Steinway rebuild. NY Steinway hammers work well on just about all vintage Steinway rebuilds. They do require a certain skill set to voice properly that many rebuilders lack.
Hamburg Steinway hammers sound fantastic on certain models. Awful on others. They sound differant than NY Steinway hammers no matter what. They also require a certain skill set to voice properly that many rebuilders lack, but they are easier to get to a mediocre level in some senses than NY Steinway Hammers.
Some Abel hammers sound very nice on vintage rebuilt Steinways. They are, in our experience, the easiest hammer to get to an acceptable level for most technicians, but do not ultimately have the color potential of either the New York or Hamburg Steinway Hammer, or the Ronson.
Ronson hammers also work beautifully with vintage Steinways.
A lot of this also is the preferance of the rebuilder and what they are experienced with. In getting a piano rebuilt, even the most expensive and best parts are the cheapest part of the equation. Anyone can order whatever part they want. I am sure that I could buy the most expensive and best scalpal in the world, but you might not want me to use it for surgery, cept maybe on a Pumpkin.
_________________________
Keith D Kerman
PianoCraft
Rebuilding & Sales of vintage and pre-owned Steinway and Mason & Hamlin
New Steingraeber, Estonia, Charles R. Walter, Brodmann, Feurich
www.pianocraft.net
http://www.youtube.com/user/pianocraftchannel/videos

keith@pianocraft.net 888-840-5460

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#65916 - 02/28/07 09:18 PM Re: I called the Steinway factory in Astoria
music32 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/07/07
Posts: 1196
Loc: Berkeley, California
Got an answer that will blow you away. Steinway is seriously considering taking Renner hammers out of Hamburg Steinways. Go ahead, do your research fellas.....and keep up the great work you are all doing
_________________________
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You Tube Channel
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NYC HS of Performing Arts
Oberlin Conservatory
NYU, M.A., Steinway M grand and upright
Haddorff console
MTAC Alameda

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#65917 - 02/28/07 10:31 PM Re: I called the Steinway factory in Astoria
fingers Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 799
Loc: Westchester, NY
 Quote:
Originally posted by music32:
Steinway is seriously considering taking Renner hammers out of Hamburg Steinways.
I just hope it's not during someone's performance.


fingers
_________________________
Playing piano at age 2, it was thought that I was some sort of idiot-savant. As it turns out, I'm just an idiot.

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#65918 - 03/01/07 12:18 AM Re: I called the Steinway factory in Astoria
music32 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/07/07
Posts: 1196
Loc: Berkeley, California
Hey fellas, a NY Steinway is NOT a Hamburg Steinway so why all the sarcastic chuckles. Puleeze!!!!!!!!
_________________________
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http://www.arioso7.wordpress.com

You Tube Channel
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NYC HS of Performing Arts
Oberlin Conservatory
NYU, M.A., Steinway M grand and upright
Haddorff console
MTAC Alameda

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#65919 - 03/01/07 12:19 AM Re: I called the Steinway factory in Astoria
music32 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/07/07
Posts: 1196
Loc: Berkeley, California
Surely would not be during a performance, great imagination.
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You Tube Channel
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NYC HS of Performing Arts
Oberlin Conservatory
NYU, M.A., Steinway M grand and upright
Haddorff console
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#65920 - 03/01/07 12:22 AM Re: I called the Steinway factory in Astoria
music32 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/07/07
Posts: 1196
Loc: Berkeley, California
Good answer, Keith, wish many techs would learn seriously how to develop the NY Steinway hammer. There seems to be a real crisis in this area..easier for the rebuilders without great skill to take shortcuts. Opinion shared by many. Have to practice..
_________________________
Piano blog: Performances, Instruction, Interviews
http://www.arioso7.wordpress.com

You Tube Channel
http://www.youtube.com/arioso7



NYC HS of Performing Arts
Oberlin Conservatory
NYU, M.A., Steinway M grand and upright
Haddorff console
MTAC Alameda

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#65921 - 03/01/07 12:34 PM Re: I called the Steinway factory in Astoria
Roy123 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/20/04
Posts: 1708
Loc: Massachusetts
 Quote:
Originally posted by music32:
Good answer, Keith, wish many techs would learn seriously how to develop the NY Steinway hammer. There seems to be a real crisis in this area..easier for the rebuilders without great skill to take shortcuts. Opinion shared by many. Have to practice.. [/b]
Remember that Keith didn't say the NY hammer was the best, but he did say it was difficult to voice correctly. For all we know, he may prefer the Ronson. Also, I believe that NY and Hamburg Steinways use the same scale design--anyone with direct knowledge please chime in. So would you say PULEEZE if it turns out that Hamburg starts using the NY hammer successfully? Maybe the pianos are more similar than you imagine them to be.

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#65922 - 03/01/07 03:00 PM Re: I called the Steinway factory in Astoria
cerulean5 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/05
Posts: 678
Loc: USA
Interesting thread.

This may sound provocative, but I ask this in all sincerity: ARE NY Steinway hammers so much better than all the rest, in terms of their capacity to bring out the very best tonal quality of Steinway pianos?

For some people, this is a rhetorical question. A "(NY) Steinway sound" cannot be achieved without authentic Steinway parts, most notably the hammers, and the Steinway-trained voicer to work on them. To suggest using any other hammers in rebuilding a Steinway is a compromise that falls below acceptable standards. There are rebuilders that, though they may not be affiliated with Steinways, adhere to this school of thought.

On the other hand, there are rebuilders who prefer using non-Steinway hammers. For some of them, it may be a matter of convenience/economics. NY Steinway hammers are more expensive. Also (and more importantly), they are difficult to voice decently.

The question is, are there rebuilders who actually
prefer non-Steinway hammers (maybe Ronsen?) because they belive that these hammers have BETTER voicing potential than NY Steinway ones? (I'm thinking Ronsen hammers, since many reputable rebuilders seem to like those.)

Again, my questions are asked in sincerity.
I should add: I own a 1923 Steinway O that has its original hammers (on their last legs!). Honestly, were I to have it rebuilt, I wouldn't mind having the rebuilder use a set of either NY Steinway or Ronsen hammers. For me, what's really critical is not the hammers themselves but the skill of the voicer with that particular brand of hammers.

--c5

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#65923 - 03/01/07 03:35 PM Re: I called the Steinway factory in Astoria
Keith D Kerman Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/03
Posts: 3314
Loc: Gaithersburg, MD (Washington D...
 Quote:
Originally posted by cerulean5:
Interesting thread.

This may sound provocative, but I ask this in all sincerity: ARE NY Steinway hammers so much better than all the rest, in terms of their capacity to bring out the very best tonal quality of Steinway pianos?

For some people, this is a rhetorical question. A "(NY) Steinway sound" cannot be achieved without authentic Steinway parts, most notably the hammers, and the Steinway-trained voicer to work on them. To suggest using any other hammers in rebuilding a Steinway is a compromise that falls below acceptable standards. There are rebuilders that, though they may not be affiliated with Steinways, adhere to this school of thought.

On the other hand, there are rebuilders who prefer using non-Steinway hammers. For some of them, it may be a matter of convenience/economics. NY Steinway hammers are more expensive. Also (and more importantly), they are difficult to voice decently.

The question is, are there rebuilders who actually
prefer non-Steinway hammers (maybe Ronsen?) because they belive that these hammers have BETTER voicing potential than NY Steinway ones? (I'm thinking Ronsen hammers, since many reputable rebuilders seem to like those.)

Again, my questions are asked in sincerity.
I should add: I own a 1923 Steinway O that has its original hammers (on their last legs!). Honestly, were I to have it rebuilt, I wouldn't mind having the rebuilder use a set of either NY Steinway or Ronsen hammers. For me, what's really critical is not the hammers themselves but the skill of the voicer with that particular brand of hammers.

--c5 [/b]
There absolutely are fine rebuilders who prefer non NY Steinway hammers on their NY Steinway rebuilds for no reason other than they think they are better. Right or wrong, they have that option. NY Steinway really doesn't have the option of putting a non Steinway hammer on one of their rebuilds without devalueing their entire sales pitch.
_________________________
Keith D Kerman
PianoCraft
Rebuilding & Sales of vintage and pre-owned Steinway and Mason & Hamlin
New Steingraeber, Estonia, Charles R. Walter, Brodmann, Feurich
www.pianocraft.net
http://www.youtube.com/user/pianocraftchannel/videos

keith@pianocraft.net 888-840-5460

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#65924 - 03/01/07 04:02 PM Re: I called the Steinway factory in Astoria
cerulean5 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/05
Posts: 678
Loc: USA
Dear Keith,

Thank you for your post-- what you write confirms my impressions from conversations I've had with reputable rebuilders.

In addition to the Steinway O, I also own a Fandrich&Sons HGS185, which is a Dongbei piano that is modified by Darrell Fandrich in Stanwood, WA. He does wonders when voicing this piano, which is fitted with Ronsen hammers. I should ask him about his preference for hammers when rebuilding Steinways, since he was originally a Steinway concert tuner/voicer before starting his piano modifying- and rebuilding business. I believe he uses Ronsens over NY Steinway hammers, although a customer can always choose.

"There absolutely are fine rebuilders who prefer non NY Steinway hammers on their NY Steinway rebuilds for no reason other than they think they are better. Right or wrong, they have that option."

I think the key word here is "option." It's good that there are excellent rebuilders out there that are experimenting with different materials, without being stifled by tradition.

--c5

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#65925 - 03/01/07 04:50 PM Re: I called the Steinway factory in Astoria
Chris W1 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/26/01
Posts: 915
Loc: Boston
I think what's sad is that the hammers chosen are more a reflection of conveinience to the tech than they are the preference of the user. NY Hammers are cold pressed, not hot pressed. Not sure its important what this means, but the process and results are definitely different. If you are in the market for a piano, you don't go in and spec out one Abel, one Ronson and one NY Steinway build to then choose from. FBOW, You generally go around and find Abel or Renner. Piano rebuilding is a tough business to make a buck in. Paying hundreds more for S&S hammers is also part of what's at play.
_________________________
Amateur At Large

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#65926 - 03/01/07 06:18 PM Re: I called the Steinway factory in Astoria
cerulean5 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/05
Posts: 678
Loc: USA
Hi Chris W1,

The fact that NY Steinway hammers are cold-pressed doesn't make them unique, though. For one, Ronsen hammers are also cold-pressed.

I do believe some rebuilders will let you choose what hammers to use, although it's probably a smart idea to let the rebuliders work with what they are most experienced with. (BTW, I'm referring to situations where an owner of a vintage piano has his/her piano rebuilt, rather than cases where people go in to buy an already rebuilt piano. If a customer insists on a NY Steinway hammer before a rebuild process, he/she can pay for the difference to cover the extra cost.)

In my case, the tuner/voicer will be likely a different person than the one that does the rebuild. So, as long as the voicer has extensive experience with that particular set of hammer, I have no problems.

--c5

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#65927 - 03/01/07 06:34 PM Re: I called the Steinway factory in Astoria
curry Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/02
Posts: 3769
Loc: Hamilton Twp, NJ
Actually, when addressing costs for a piano rebuild, the hammers are not going to be an area where a rebuilder is going to make a big profit. The costs of the most popular hammer brands is not a that wide spread. For the seasoned rebuilder, his/her choice is usually based on their experience and the desired results achieved with using a specific brand.
I checked prices, and Steinway hammers are only nominally more expensive than the other top rated hammers. Approximately $110-140 more.
_________________________
G.Fiore "aka-Curry". Tuner-Technician serving the central NJ, S.E. PA area. b214cm@aol.com Concert tuning, Regulation-voicing specialist.
Dampp-Chaser installations, piano appraisals. PTG S.Jersey Chapter 080.
Bösendorfer 214 # 47,299 214-358

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#65928 - 03/01/07 06:40 PM Re: I called the Steinway factory in Astoria
Norbert Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14138
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
It would be interesting to hear what Hamburg Steinway would say if they would be asked to do the same in reverse:

"Put a New York action and their hammers into one of theirs.

service@steinway.de or try UKorte@steinway.de

Norbert \:\(
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
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#65929 - 03/01/07 06:45 PM Re: I called the Steinway factory in Astoria
curry Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/02
Posts: 3769
Loc: Hamilton Twp, NJ
They'd go Postal.
_________________________
G.Fiore "aka-Curry". Tuner-Technician serving the central NJ, S.E. PA area. b214cm@aol.com Concert tuning, Regulation-voicing specialist.
Dampp-Chaser installations, piano appraisals. PTG S.Jersey Chapter 080.
Bösendorfer 214 # 47,299 214-358

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#65930 - 03/01/07 06:47 PM Re: I called the Steinway factory in Astoria
cerulean5 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/05
Posts: 678
Loc: USA
A German going Postal? That would be interesting. \:D

--c5

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#65931 - 03/02/07 01:09 PM Re: I called the Steinway factory in Astoria
Keith D Kerman Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/03
Posts: 3314
Loc: Gaithersburg, MD (Washington D...
 Quote:
Originally posted by curry:
Actually, when addressing costs for a piano rebuild, the hammers are not going to be an area where a rebuilder is going to make a big profit. The costs of the most popular hammer brands is not a that wide spread. For the seasoned rebuilder, his/her choice is usually based on their experience and the desired results achieved with using a specific brand.
I checked prices, and Steinway hammers are only nominally more expensive than the other top rated hammers. Approximately $110-140 more. [/b]
As I have said many times, the cost of materials in non art case pianos is a tiny % of the overall costs. It is mostly labor.
The most expensive hammers that I am aware of?
Yamaha.
_________________________
Keith D Kerman
PianoCraft
Rebuilding & Sales of vintage and pre-owned Steinway and Mason & Hamlin
New Steingraeber, Estonia, Charles R. Walter, Brodmann, Feurich
www.pianocraft.net
http://www.youtube.com/user/pianocraftchannel/videos

keith@pianocraft.net 888-840-5460

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#65932 - 03/02/07 05:57 PM Re: I called the Steinway factory in Astoria
Axtremus Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/03
Posts: 6176
 Quote:
Originally posted by Keith D Kerman:

The most expensive hammers that I am aware of?
Yamaha.
So... have you tried putting Yamaha hammers on a rebuild Steinway?

Any rebuilder out there who prefer putting Yamaha hammers on rebuild Steinways?
_________________________
www.PianoRecital.org -- my piano recordings

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#65933 - 03/02/07 06:36 PM Re: I called the Steinway factory in Astoria
Derick II Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/13/05
Posts: 1426
Loc: New York
I bet there are hundreds. But getting them to 'fess up to it is going to be difficult ;\)

Derick
_________________________
"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid."[/b] - Soren Aabye Kierkegaard (1813-1855)


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#65934 - 03/02/07 10:18 PM Re: I called the Steinway factory in Astoria
LJC Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/04
Posts: 1516
Loc: New York
Keith, do the Ronson hammers sound like the S&S NY hammers? Music, where did you get your information about Hamburg possibly not using Renner hammers?

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#65935 - 03/03/07 01:17 PM Re: I called the Steinway factory in Astoria
Keith D Kerman Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/03
Posts: 3314
Loc: Gaithersburg, MD (Washington D...
 Quote:
Originally posted by Axtremus:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Keith D Kerman:

The most expensive hammers that I am aware of?
Yamaha.
So... have you tried putting Yamaha hammers on a rebuild Steinway?

Any rebuilder out there who prefer putting Yamaha hammers on rebuild Steinways? [/b]
We have not put Yamaha hammers on a Steinway Rebuild. They are too expensive. We stick with the cheap stuff from NY Steinway and Hamburg Steinway mainly.

By the way, I am speaking of Yamaha C series hammers that we have bought to put on Yamaha C series pianos. I think the S series hammers are more expensive still. I suspect that Yamaha jacks up the price on these because they do not want to be in the parts selling business.
_________________________
Keith D Kerman
PianoCraft
Rebuilding & Sales of vintage and pre-owned Steinway and Mason & Hamlin
New Steingraeber, Estonia, Charles R. Walter, Brodmann, Feurich
www.pianocraft.net
http://www.youtube.com/user/pianocraftchannel/videos

keith@pianocraft.net 888-840-5460

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#65936 - 03/03/07 01:19 PM Re: I called the Steinway factory in Astoria
Keith D Kerman Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/03
Posts: 3314
Loc: Gaithersburg, MD (Washington D...
 Quote:
Originally posted by LJC:
Keith, do the Ronson hammers sound like the S&S NY hammers? [/b]
The ronsen hammers have their own sound, but it is more like a NY Steinway hammer than a Hamburg.
_________________________
Keith D Kerman
PianoCraft
Rebuilding & Sales of vintage and pre-owned Steinway and Mason & Hamlin
New Steingraeber, Estonia, Charles R. Walter, Brodmann, Feurich
www.pianocraft.net
http://www.youtube.com/user/pianocraftchannel/videos

keith@pianocraft.net 888-840-5460

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