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Hmmm...

15 months ago I started learning on a Yamaha CVP 301. I bought it because I thought it was sufficiently like a real piano in sound and feel.

I've been taking lessons and, compared to a real upright, there are so many subtleties that the 301 does not have such as the rich resonance, and not quite the same feel of the keys. I think, over the last year, my musical 'ear' has also developed.

Last week I took my father to buy a digital piano (he used to play as a kid, and wants to start again now he's seen me having fun!)and he settled for a Yamaha CLP 270

It's got four level sampling like mine, but, my goodness it sounds so much better!

It's got the iAC thingy which seems to transform the sound, and the key action seems, to me, slightly better.

Anyway, the CLP270 seems to be two steps nearer the real thing than my CVP301......

So I'm thinking of upgrading.

My question is, are there other Yamaha models (I don't understand why there are so many model classifications) that are even better than the CLP270?

I'm only interested in the sound and feel of the piano - I'm not bothered at all about shiny finishes, and clever stuff like instrument voices, percussion etc.

Anyone any experiences to compare? All opinions welcome.

Thaum.

We have a CVP 301 sharing a room with an acoustic grand (6' Kawai KG3C in good condition). Recently I was playing the CVP 301 with the volume wound up and my wife in another room with the doors open thought I had been playing the grand. She is a music teacher, and wasn't listening that closely -- but she was surprised.

I think the CVP 301 is quite comparable to the grand. The grand is certainly better at ffff (when I hit the right notes!) But I expect with an extra amplifier and speakers the CVP would be comparable there too.

Given the chance to upgrade, (at the right price!) I would do so, probably to a better model in the CVP 300 or CVP 400 range. I like the bells and whistles, but no way fully use the ones I've already got! But I wouldn't expect much improvement in sound quality that I could hear -- and for an old guy, my hearing is still good.

I think the sound of a piano is very subjective, and perhaps you are a lot more sensitive to these things than I am.

Room acoustics have a big bearing on how a piano sounds too, so make sure you are not being misled. If your father now has a CLP 270, could you move your CVP 301 to the same location (it disassembles for transportation) and do a side-by-side comparison?

That will take room acoustics out of the equation and I for one would be most interested in what you discover.

you probably just need a CLP rather than a CVP. but wait till new CLP300 series coming out in a few months. the new CLP380 will have 5-level sampling. i'm sure you'd find the new 300 models would have even better feel and sound than that CLP270.

Thanks for the replies.

bruceee - very interesting observations. What strikes me about digitals is that hearing them is a bit like listening to music on a CD - it's piped at hi fidelity through speakers, but it's not like being next to the real thing (I'm thinking about the resonance you get on a real piano).

Transporting my CVP to my father's house isn't an option, but I agree, it would rule out a lot of variables to make an accurate comparison.

What bothers me is that I play on a real upright (my teacher's) every other week - to my ear at least - it shows up weaknesses in my playing, that don't seem to come through on my CVP, admittedly I don't play on it every day so I aren't acclimatised to it.

What struck me with the CLP270 is that these weaknesses did show up quite plainly to me. For example, I continue to struggle to sound the chords in Chopin's Prelude in E Minor with the subtlety I want to achieve - it sounds ok on the CVP301, but terrible on the real thing. My poor playing showed up in a similar way on the CLP270, and after a few hours of play, I was definitely improving. I had the impression that the CLP was closer to the real thing.

Hardly scientific I know, but my impression is that the the CVP301, although superb, has its limits. Buying a real accoustic is not an option for me (neighbours etc), so I'm looking for the next best thing.

signa - yes I've been trawling the web and this forum and seen that the the new CLP will be coming out this summer. It could well be the answer (although it's frustrating that these things cost as much a the real thing).

I reckon a 5-level sample piano would do, until one day when they release a 6-level sample.......aaagh!!

Thaum

The biggest difference between the two Clavinovas you're comparing is the keyboard. The CLP270's keyboard is much better and more piano-like, so that is why you are finding it more like the acoustic upright you play at your lessons rather than your CVP301.

If you do upgrade, you should check out which keyboard the model has that you want to upgrade to. Generally speaking, the more expensive models in the range have better and more realistic keyboard actions, but it's still down to personal preference at the end of the day.

If you go for a CLP-280 you`ll find the Natural Wood keyboard, which is an entirely different mechanism also, and for my taste the best action available on a digital piano. For the rest of the features is a CLP-270. This keyboard costs an extra $500 but can be worth, I recommend you testing it.

Andres.

You should also cosnider Roland and Kawai pianos. Many people prefer them to Yamaha.

Thanks for the responses.

The higher spec digitals come with higher prices.

I've just been looking at the Yamaha Silent pianos.

A CLP380 would be about £3200. That's a lot of money for a digi to me. Makes me wonder if it is worth saving up even more for a U1 silent which can be bought for £5175.

Anyone had any experience or views on these silent pianos? They are real accoustics, but you can also plug in headphones to play silently (a digi tone generator kicks in. Sounds like the best of both world, but at a far higher cost.

Thaum

Welcome to the world of piano shopping! When you go shopping for digitals, go with a good pair of headphones -- I should have suggested that before. That way you can factor out room acoustics. One thing you want to avoid is going on an expensive shopping trip, and find that when you get it home, the object of your desire sounds no better than the CVP.

Pianos, especially acoustic, differ greatly in their touch. Some are not very well regulated either, so the touch can be uneven. They can differ widely in sound, and as mentioned before there are room acoustics too.

These factors make it easy to be thrown when you play on a strange piano, in a different environment in front of an audience -- even if only one person! I'm sure every teacher has heard the song, "I played it better at home". I think you would have the same problem even if you had a "fantastic" piano at home.

The only answer to this is practice: every opportunity you get, play strange pianos -- that way you learn to adjust your playing to suit the piano.

I think your CVP is quite adequate, as is mine, but if either of us can find the justification for an upgrade then let's go for it

Hehe,

I've posted on this topic in the real piano forum too.

The problem, Bruceee, is that once you get the idea of upgrading it's hard to let it go.

I have a creepy feeling that no matter what digital I get, the market and technology being what it is, means that every year or two I will be hankering for the next better model on the market in my quest to find a digital that's 'just like the real thing'.

I am supposing that if I went for an acoustic silent, this issue is resolved - you can't get more real than a real one can you?

I've just spent this morning rearranging my living furniture to see if I can fit in an upgright. I'll have to get rid of a reclining chair, and a hifi, lol!

I've found one shop which offers to hire out these silent pianos with an option to buy. Seems like a good way to try what I buy at home, if a trifle expensive.

here's the shop:

http://www.piano-warehouse.co.uk/hire.php

Thaum

You might simply switch pianos with your
dad. But your piano has sound and action
based on a top-of-the-line concert grand,
so it's pretty darned good as is. You
would essentially be unable to outgrow
it, because you can't outgrow a concert
grand-like instrument.

I grew up with many yrs. of classical
lessons and acoustic pianos only. But
since 1989 I have been playing only digitals,
and I have found them to be superior to
acoustic pianos for technique development.
Anything you work up at home should be
transferable to any acoustic piano at
any time. What I suspect is that you
are not being taught properly, which is
very common today. Today, many teachers
spend all their time stressing nuances
and dynamics and feeling the music and bringing
out the unfathomable meaning in every
single note. This is garbage. You need
to hit all the right notes in the right
time at full speed. Try seeing if you can
do that first, before you start to think
about so-called nuances.

These so-called silent pianos, acoustic
pianos with the whole works of a digital
piano stuffed into the interior, are
a joke. Hey, why not just get
a digital piano, for a fraction of the
price of one of these awkward, jury-rigged
monsters?

I would respectfully disagree with your statement. Though you may hit all the right notes in the right time at full speed, ignoring dynamics and nuances will leave you with a totally mechanical, unfeeling piece of music that has all of the interest of a metronome keeping time. Of course, that's my opinion, you obviously feel differently, but I would dare to say that professional and amateur performing artists as well as the almost infinite catalog of recorded piano pieces would be completely at odds with your concept.
Clyde

Wildpaws, can you hit all the right notes
in the right time at full speed in, say,
the Rachmaninoff Third Concerto? Wouldn't
you give your right arm to be able to?
Of course, some measure of dynamics, etc.
can come after you're able to do this,
but just this alone would put you in the
top echelon of players in the world.

A silent piano is not a monster and is more (less?) than a digital in a piano shaped case. It`s a piano action with sensors and samples as well as strings.

What`s the point in learning half of a piece of music that requires dozens of people to play the other half?

I have to agree with Gyro that a good digital piano can be as rewarding and perhaps more enjoyable for most of us as an accoustic piano.

I have no doubt that for a concert level pianist the nuances and intangible qualities of an acoustic piano amount to very tangible benefits (for the concert level pianist). However, for most of us who are adult beginners, those qualities are lost. I suspect much the same to be true for all beginners, except perhaps the truly gifted. There seems to be a lot of mysticism associated with the touted advantages of an acoustic piano.

To answer Thaum's original question, there are many other Yamaha models to look at, and they are increasingly expensive with an asymptotic curve of sound quality vs price, i.e., as you get nearer the top, the differences in sound quality and touch quality between the models as you go up become less discernible and the choice becomes more subjective, more about available features, and less about quality of sound or touch.

As I waited for my special ordered CGP 1000, the dealer let me use a brand new CVP 309GP for 6 weeks. For my "tin ear," there's not $6,000 difference between the two. But I wanted the CGP 1000, come heck or high water. So that's what I got. I suspect that for touch and sound quality you will not find much to differentiate among the top Yamahas, Rolands, and Casios and that it will come down to subjective preferences. And that's OK.

I would encourage listening and comparing as many pianos, digital and acoustic, as possible. If comparing digital to acoustic, I would leave the headpones at home.

BTW, before I got my digital, I had shopped for two months for a restored acoustic grand piano and had set my heart on a restored M&H A. One day, I got to thinking about adding Pianomation ($6500), a humidity control system ($750), annual tuning, voicing, and regulation ($500 to $1000/yr), and my "tin ear" and I decided a digital obviated most of that and within a week had ordered my current piano. I love every minute of my time at the keyboard.

Good luck Thaum,

So has the CVP 1000 arrived?
If so, what differences did you notice right away. I too am just an adult beginner but have good ears still. Should be they are big enough.
I'm looking to upgrade to the CVP level, though probably not the 1000, in a couple of years from a YDP 223. I hope by then to be playing well enough to TEST DRIVE a few with confidence.
I will find your input very helpful.

So learn how to play the notes while ignoring dynamics/nuances, get good at it, then go back and retrain yourself to start using the dynamics/nuances to perfect your playing skills. Sounds to me like more effort to retrain yourself than to learn to play properly in the first place.
Clyde

I would agree that a good digital piano can be rewarding and enjoyable to for most anyone. My previous responses were not a "put down" of digitals/synths, I have a few of them myself and they are what I primarily play, my disagreement is with people saying that using the dynamics and nuances was not the right thing to do, I use dynamics on my synths every time I play as does most every other keyboard player I know.
Clyde

As I posted earlier, I truly view my aural cognizance of the nuances and fine points that distinguish different musical instruments to be wanting. I am a total "newbie" to music at 61 years of age. Except for many years of enjoying 60s and 70s rock and coincidentally incurring a high frequency hearing loss (above about 8 khz), I had virtually no understandng of music other than knowing what I liked, including a lot classical stuff.

Therefore, I would view with great skepticism any opinions I might offer with regard to a comparative qualitative assessment of different DPs.

That said, I got the CGP-1000 a month ago after having the CVP309GP for about 6 weeks and 5 lessons. I really liked them both. I cannot appreciate a meaningful difference between them with regard to piano sound quality or key touch. I cannot even appreciate the difference between the synthetic ivory key surfaces compared to the plastic on the 309GP. They both look very nice in my living room.

My wife (55 y/o), who is much more piano literate than I (piano lessons for 10 years as a child), likes them both equally and cannot detect a meaningful difference. She is very impressed with the piano sound and the key touch, on both.

My preference for the CGP-1000 is probably best explained by a sense of confidence that I have the best Yamaha has to offer in a DP TODAY. Of course that will change during the next year or two, perhaps sooner with the CLP-3xx. But that's OK for me. So I'm a pretty typical American consumer. I buy what I think I can afford (and perhaps cannot), to get the latest and greatest.

Knowing what I know today, I would still get the CGP-1000 because I can afford it. But the CVP 309GP would have served me perfectly and my emerging (slowly) talent at the keyboard would not have suffered.

I hope that answers your questions.

p.s. I do like the appearance of the sound board in the CGP-1000 better than the black speaker cloth under the top of the CVP 309GP. Whether the sound board actually contributes to the sound quality and dynamics I can't say. I haven't A-B'd them.