At one point, I was a middling pianist, but really enjoyed it (mostly Bach). For a while I have been wanting a Clavinova CLP-240 to pick up where I left off, but had not been able to afford one.

Now I finally can, but only just barely! I went to the only local showroom, but prices here in Manhattan are insane and I can't drive elsewhere.

Then I noticed that this particular eBay seller, "RachelMusicInc", consistently sells CLP-240s along with various other brand-new Yamaha digital pianos and other musical instruments. They are offering a NEW CLP-240 for only $2300, which is way cheaper than I will ever get it here in the NYC area.

I am skeptical about buying something this expensive and complex on eBay, but the seller's feedback rating is 99.4% positive, and other people who have bought the same piano gave enthusiastic feedback.

Should I do it? Is there any real reason not to? I am pretty satisfied the seller is legit, but my biggest concern is what if the piano develops technical problems a few months or years down the road. Rachelmusicinc off eBay isn't a licensed Yamaha dealer, I imagine, so I don't expect I'll be getting the thing serviced by them if it develops problems down the line. But will a local seller service it if I didn't buy from them? I just don't want to get stuck with a piece of junk in a year or two.

Also, just out of curiosity, what is the legality of what the seller is doing? Is this thing "contraband" or is it legal to sell new Clavinovas over eBay, and if so how do you suppose they come by them?

Thanks in advance.

If it is brand new then I would not be overly concerned about problems down the line or servicing. Electrical equipment of this type is durable and reliable these days.

I have a CLP280 and it has been shifted across Europe and installed in three different properties so far, without any ill effects whatsoever.

I cannot comment about the legality issues on eBay or the seller's relationship, if any, with the Yamaha distribution network.

With a 99% rating this might be legit. Since
$2300 seems to be what they sell for in Europe,
they might have some kind of European connection
where they somehow circumvent the US dealer
network.

But I'm wondering why you're focusing on
this particular model, when there are literally
hundreds to choose from online. Weighted-key
digital piano technology is now so well-established
and widespread that there are now dozens
of companies that make good pianos. For
example, the models from the lesser-known
companies like Adagio, Winchester, Hemingway,
Diginova, Williams, etc. are apparently
just as good or better than the ones from
the big-name brands. One forum member
considers Winchester digitals to be the
best of them all.

$2300 seems high for the CLP-240 considering
its modest specs, in partcular the 64
note polyphony. For example, you can
get a Casio PX-800 with 128 note polyphony
for $900 online.

There is no comparison between a Casio PX-800 and a Yamaha Clavinova. No comparison. The Clavinova is *worlds* above any of the Casios. Same with the Williams. Those things are absolute junk and sound and play awful. I don't know the other brands Gyro mentions, but Gyro is known for his rather unique view that cheap digital pianos are as good as more expensive ones. Not a view I share, and I've owned both.

I would *not* buy a Clavinova from eBay. No way. And I am (I think) known for my view that purchasing pianos from Internet retailers can be a very good thing, under the right circumstances (I got my acoustic grand that way). The risks are too great with someone like that seller.

I bought my Clavinova from the NYC area Yamaha dealer. They delivered it the next day, fully assembled, and three very nice gentlemen carried it down into my basement studio. It was squeaky clean, polished nice and shiny, and they even plugged it in and made sure everything worked properly. Showed me the manuals. Cleaned up after themselves. And entertained my 3 year old son.

If *anything* goes wrong with the instrument, I can call that dealer and count on their excellent service. I wouldn't want to spend that kind of money without that kind of backup. As Brian indicates, you will not be getting a proper or authorized instrument.

PM me if you want some more useful information about buying a Clavinova. I like mine.

Mark

And this from Yamaha site would seem to apply to Rachaelmusic inc.
--------------------------------------------
Has a copy of the Torah, the Bible or other religious material in the box
--------------------------------------------
That site is saturated with religion and one comment from purchaser even commented that he didn't ask for religious material in his purchase.

I looked on e-bay too before finding the Yamaha disclosure and was sceptical about them and now would not risk it.
Hope when I'm ready for a Clavinova I can get a fair price from the dealer in my area.

eBay is usually the best place to buy things. However, for a specific case of digital pianos it is not such a good idea and makes little sense. Why? It is easy to understand. How can one possibly win (both buyer and seller) by buying on eBay. Only by breaking those stupid things they call "laws" Namely, all the "good cheap stuff" comes from China or Hong Kong and they declare it as "gift, value 0" so we don't get charged customs and thus everyone is happy --- buyers get incredibly cheap prices and sellers satisfy a remote and otherwise inaccessible to them market.

But, as you can imagine, this only works for things like torches, USB/MIDI cables, gadgets etc etc --- i.e. small things easily passed through the customs without inspection. But you can't do that with a 100kg package containing a DP, obviously!
So that is one of the reasons why it is not a good idea to buy a DP on eBay, applicable to buying a _new_ DP.

A second-hand DP is an entirely different story but again it turns out that eBay is not a place to buy one from (but for a different reason). The reason being --- a second hand DP you would be buying from a person and not a company so they won't have a special agreement with a courier and thus you will have to pay a real (huge!) cost of shipping or will have to collect it yourself (which means you have to buy a car first
(btw, buying a used car on ebay, on the other hand, is not a bad idea at all as none of the above objections apply)

I bought a CLP-280 from a proper Yamaha authorized dealer in London (Chappell of Bond Street) and am very happy with both the price and the service I received. So I recommend to go the same safe way.

I used to own a Casio AP-24 console,
that I bought new online in 2005 for $700
--this is a model with less-than-current technology,
and it now sells for around $600. This is
considered an economy model, with 32
polyphony, but it served well for working
on the most difficult classical repertoire,
like big Romantic Era concertos. I wish
I still had it and regret the day I got
rid of it. When I had it, I once tried
a $15,000 digital piano, and I was unimpressed with
how it compared to the AP-24.

The yamaha warning link was great. I highly doubt the eBay seller will be offended in any way if you forward them that link from Yamaha and let them know your concerns. I'm sure they have answered the same question countless times.

Think about the risk. If the product costs 25% less(after tax, shippingd/delivery), than if every 4th one you bought broke at 1 years with 100% loss, the math is about even. I estimate that the failure rate from eBay is equal to an Authorized dealer and if it does fail, I believe a service technician center could repair the product without 100% loss. So if the price is 25% less on eBay, I think the math is WAY in eBay's favor.

Some people don't like any risk though. If I told you that I'd give you $1000 and then every minute take $5 back for the next 20 minutes, or I'll give you $1000 and every minute flip a coin where heads = me give you $65 and tails = you give me $50 for the next 20 minutes. Many people would take the first option, even though the second is statistically better.

It really doesn't matter how you buy it. You're going to spend much more time enjoying your Clavinova and after a few months you won't be worried about the cost anyway.

My experience with warranty maintenance was that very few authorized warranty repair centers are dealers. They were primarily electronics repair centers that repair all kinds of things, at least in my area. I'm not recommending one way or the other whether you should buy off ebay, but I would guess the repair center wouldn't know or care where you bought the piano, as long as the serial number was legit and not stolen.

If you're going to buy off ebay or craigslist, I would look at something used. The depreciation on higher end pianos seems to be much larger than on stage pianos. I've seen really nice DPs in grand cabinets from all vendors go with no bids even when the prices are rather low.

I am not going to say whether people should or shouldn't buy from the internet. While you can get some real bargains, you are not getting the service your local dealer can provide (which is the reason he can't match the prices of some of the internet cowboys). On the other hand, I do think that, while the facts in the statement referred to in the link are true to some extent, it does contain a significant amount of scaremongering which I wouldn't allow to influence my decision. A lot of the pitfalls mentioned are easily bypassed or extremely unlikely to happen.

If the product actually arrives in one piece and doesn't blow up in 5 years (2years in Europe), you've got yourself a bargain, especially if you consider how reliable keyboards are nowadays.

On the other hand, you may have to assemble the Clavinova yourself (not good if you have a bad back), you are likely to need a step down transformer (make sure you get one with the correct rating) and you might struggle to get any support and advice. If the piano goes wrong, you'll have to pay for the repair (unless your dealer gives you his own warranty - and honours it)and that can be very expensive due to the fact that a lot of 'Service Centres' don't do more than replace circuit boards, which can get very expensive.

In the end, you have to chose whether you like a bargain or would rather pay the extra for peace of mind.

Thanks for all your responses so far. I definitely agree that a lot of the ominous claims on the Yamaha warning page are just scaremongering. Fires? Loss of insurance? I doubt it seriously. I'm really primarily concerned with the service, but if these things are as reliable as the consensus in this thread seems to suggest, it appears that the odds are in my favor. Still intend to contact the eBay seller and inquire what their policies are.

As I understand it, the "authorized Yamaha service centers" won't indignantly refuse to fix a "non-US" Clavinova if something goes wrong with it, but it's just not covered under any warranty, so I'd have to pay for it myself -- correct?

I try to use vendors with actual store fronts whenever I buy online and never gotten burned yet.
When I ordered a YDP213 from an online store at Xmas discovered it had a defective key. The store was great to deal with on the phone and gave me several choices on how to replace the unit. I chose to have them shipp a new one out and pick the old one up at that time. No shipping cost to me either way.
I also after having the 213 for a few days wanted to upgrade to the YDP223 and they let me do this no problem. Shipping was prompt and e-mailed me to check on things and make sure I was happy.
The music store I used is listed as a Yamaha dealer on the Yamaha site.
Can't even find Rachaelmusic Inc anywhere but E-bay.
I would avoid them myself.

Thanks, dvs cycles -- the only problem is, for whatever reason, Yamaha refuses to let Clavinovas be sold online by "authorized" dealers (although they do let authorized dealers sell some of their other non-Clavinova digital pianos online).

For younger folks like me who are used to ordering everything from groceries to furniture online, that's a real drawback. And the fact that Yamaha won't even allow their dealers to quote you a price unless you come and ask in person is pretty exasperating for someone with no car and who works every day until 9, 10, or 11 p.m. Frustrating!

J Mark, I can assure you that Casio makes good pianos at affordable price. You surely do not get Yamaha for Casio price but you get a piano comparable to Kawai piano for a lesser price. Means more bang for your buck. I can affirm that because I bought AP500 Casio a month ago for my daughter. I also tried PX200 and PX800 in shops, and I also tried AP33 and AP45. And I loved all of them. Surely you get what you pay for, so I would not compare Casio to same class Yamaha or Roland while cheaper Yamaha does not please my ear at all.

I don't particularly love Yamaha's marketing policies. However, the Clavinova happens to be, in my opinion, a truly fine instrument, and the tone and feel were right for me. Now that I have it, I couldn't care less about Yamaha's marketing.

One further consideration. In my view, with digitals changing rapidly, technology always advancing, and used digitals depreciating in value very rapidly -- it makes sense to me to always buy the lowest level instrument that satisfies your needs.

For me, for a year, that was a mere P70. I barely noticed how limited it was, until I bought an acoustic grand that happens to have a very nice touch and tone. Then the P70 became unbearable. I went to the Yamaha dealer and played every Clavinova made -- repeatedly. I found that the CLP220 (much maligned I'm sure) was plenty adequate for where I am. I also found that the price was not too bad at all.

But more importantly, I now have a 3 year full tradeup option. If I outgrow it, and/or Yamaha releases something that I truly love, I can get my full purchase price toward a trade for that model. I know this tradeup thing is often derided on PW, but I am not an idiot, and I find it very meaningful. The dealer is honest and respectable, and I believe when the time comes they will base the trade on a fair price for the upgraded instrument.

So I now have something that suits my skills and my "ear development," and when I outgrow it ... up we go.

I also think they will give me full purchase price toward an acoustic, if I go that route.

To me, this alone is enough to push me over the line and to deal with the local dealer.

FWIW, I found the Manhattan branch of this dealer less pleasant to deal with than the suburban branches, and I have visited both. Just FYI.

Fires would be possible if you plugged a 240v. device into 120 mains.

We must have been typing at the same time.

I never said Casio didn't make decent DP's for the price. I've owned two of them, the last being a PX-700. I think they are quite decent for the price, and I definitely think they have Yamaha beat in terms of the action, in the sub-$1000 market.

I also agree that the cheaper Yamahas do not sound particularly good.

So I'm not sure what your point is, or what it is that you are arguing with.

What I said was, there is no comparison between a Clavinova and a lower-end DP by any maker. I said that in response to the suggestion that one is just as well off with a cheap DP. I stand by those statements quite emphatically.

I think you mean that the other way around but either way the electonics will be damaged by under voltage too and probably smoke the circuit board or a fuse at best with high voltage.

I hear you there about online shopping. I too buy most things online where I can compare prices and look for no tax and free shipping.
Wish Yamaha site would at least list MSRP for all models for comparison.
While I was able to muscle the 160lb box my 223 came in into the house and set it up myself the Clavinova's are almost twice that heavy and I would like the responsibilty of assembly and test on the shoulders of the dealer next time.
Was a pain trying to put the 213 back in the box to ship back. It was put in like an ancient Asian puzzle box. Only one solution to solve it.
Seems here in SoCAl that only one chain has the lock on Clavinova's. Keyboard Concepts seems like a good place but I would like to find other dealers for comparison in the area and have came up dry.
Good luck and keep us posted how you do.

CLP240 is a great instrument. Yamaha upgraded the warranty to 5/5 a year ago. You will miss out on this protection on internet purchase. Can't believe you are that far off of a retail purchase from your local dealer. Work with them a little more. Would you pay another couple of hundred for protection and peace of mind?

LesCharles and dvs, when you say there is a danger of fire, I assume you mean without the proper adapter or transformer? I don't imagine there is any danger of fire, etc., or frying the instrument, if one uses a proper voltage converter?

Correct if the customer is aware of voltage differences. As an electrician I've seen all sorts of screwups.

Question for you Craigen?
Is there a list somewhere of all the Yamaha authorized dealers in SoCal? Yamaha site will only give me one at a time on the locator using Zip Code. And though I haven't sat down with a list of all zips in the LA to SD area all I get locally is Keyboard Concepts. Seems like a fine store but I like to shop.
I would appreciate any info you send my way.

Keyboard concepts in LA and Orange county.
Yamaha Music Center, Riverside.
Green's Music San Diego.
Waltrip's, San Gabriel?

J Mark, i agree 100% with you. and i am sorry, as it seems i misinterpreted your former posting. as the saying goes, you get what you pay for.

Thanks. Looks like Keyboard Concepts has a lock on my area. I will have to venture out to the 909 and down south to look around too.

If you can get to a Jacobs Music www.jacobsmusic.com You should be able to get the CLP-240 for $2500 delivered. Special sale going on NOW. You can get a Roland HP-203 for under $2500. Many prefer the Roland to the Yamaha. The HP-203 has about 200 sounds plus has a connection for a standard PC DVD. They sell DVDs that you can play along with. Roland is also built in Japan. They are both good digital pianos.

Advice? ... Get a brand new clp-270

I bought a piano on line that was destroyed in shipping. Damage to the box was almost unnoticeable. The carton had been droped on one corner, and it twisted the entire case. The keyboard looked like Lettermans front teeth! Fortunately, I bought it from a major internet retailer and they replaced it without any hassles.

After that incident, I decided never to buy a fragile, expensive item from eBay. Had I bought the instrument from eBay, I might have had to deal with the damage claim myself. Because the damage to the carton was minimal, the shipper may have contested the claim. I could have gotten stuck for a $2000 instrument. When you buy shipping insurance for an eBay purchase, it's never clear exactly who has the burden of filng the claim. If you bought the insurance, then you, as the "policy holder", would probably have the burden of dealing with the shipper.

In my opinion, the potential problems of shipping override the savings. Even if the seller has a good rating, you could get stung by a shipping incident like mine.

If you have an instrument shipped to you, open and inspect it before you sign the release. If the driver will not wait, then note that on the waiver when you sign it.

A note on styrofoam packing - it transmits a lot more energy than you might think. Factory cartons are designed for palletized, across the ocean shipping and warehousing. They are not designed for the rigors of shipping once individual units are removed from the pallet.