V-Piano description on Roland US webpage with detailed specs

Roland\'s offical website video demos in 4 parts

NAMM 2009 demo video on YouTube part 1

NAMM 2009 demo video on YouTube part 2

Roland\'s official glossy webpage which is preliminary info at the moment


My initial thoughts...

Wow, just what we've been waiting for - an entirely physical modelled virtual piano (like PianoTeq) in a serious hardware product. If it really works (???) I'll probably buy it later this year when it comes out.

At last! - Roland have finally included digital output on it (coaxial S/PDIF) and since the source is mathematically modelled this ought to be a pure digital waveform, without intrinsic microphone hiss or audio transfer function related issues that you always get from sample based alternatives.

Alas! Roland STILL haven't included pitch bend or modulation wheels, so it's not a master keyboard! So, I'll be keeping my Kawai MP8 anyway. Speaking of which, the resemblance of V-Piano to the look of the Kawai MP8 is uncanny - except obviously, for the real wooden keys which Roland doesn't have!

Kawai MP8 measures 1466 x 442 x 189 mm and weighs 35kg.
Roland V-Piano is 1411 x 530 x 166 mm and weighs 38.2kg.
Yamaha CP300 is 1391 x 460 x 170 mm and weighs 32.5kg.

Yes - it's 530 mm deep!!! That's gonna be a big heavy mother of a flightcase - I hope the gigs are on the ground floor! Yet with all that physical real-estate, why couldn't they squeeze in some loudspeakers, like the Yamaha? Or pitch / mod wheels? (So what I'd really like is for Roland to bring out a V-Piano Rack module version, then I can carry on using my Kawai as the master keyboard.)

I do really like Roland's USB memory stick for handy sequencer midi / wav / MP3 file playback. (There's a 128 poly GM2 bank inside, as well.) You can record to a one track internal sequencer at 120 ppqn and store via this as well.

Roland's V series products using COSM modelling are very good though. I already own the V-Drums (original module TD10 + TDW1 but with metal Pintech pads and VisuLite cymbals) and its user friendly, visual LCD interface is a breath of fresh air compared to so many other hi-tech products. The new full colour animated 3D graphics from V-Piano's user interface (with the optional computer monitor hooked up) are lovely. It already looks much nicer than the RD700SX / GX interface, which offered impressive user parameter options - although it only had crappy 4 layer multisamples that never gave me a satisfactory feel no matter how much I tweaked all those settings, but this thing could solve the issues. Roland's adherence to sampling Model D Steinways bodes well for the V-Piano's modelling algorithms to sound good (whereas PianoTeq used recordings of a 7 foot Fazioli as the basis for their algorithms.)

Can't wait to play it! I'd estimate it will probably cost $2999 RRP, and be in the shops by April / May 2009, then doubtless be superseded by its inevitable "Mark II" replacement (V-Piano SX or GX etc.) as always, just a few weeks after you've finally agonized over your purchase decision and actually bought a V-Piano...!

I knew it! In december (in the ungrateful stubborn child thread) i asked:

"How soon before we can see a digital stage piano with graded keys with pianoteq as the core sound producer?"

I knew it was a matter of time for sampled sound to be replaced by a computer program if it really does produce a better sound.

Saw the product showcase at NAMM: Incredible instrument. They only had prototypes there, so access to it was extremely limited. Looking forward to its introduction.

I guess they didn't add loudspeakers because of weight - 38 kg sounds different from 45 kg, isn't it?

I'm looking forward for the next models. The technology should be cheaper, and maybe they'll make some hybrid, with e.p. and organ sounds, and lightweight action - it would be great!

Something to keep in mind with mathematically modeled sounds for a piano - it's not very difficult to change the parameters to make it sound like an acoustic bass. Pianoteq has already done this and offers a bass preset.

It removes hammer and damper noise to complete the affect. It's not too bad; I've heard lots worse VSTi's.

If you can play bass with the left hand, jazz with the right, with a split for the two sounds, you have 2/3's of a jazz trio!!!

Now consider that a guitar also has strings that are struck, has a wooden soundboard, and that the strings are connected to that soundboard through a common bridge, a guitar sound isn't far away. I've even heard DP's that sounded more like a guitar than a piano.

It's already listed for sale at http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/599282-REG/Roland_V_PIANO_V_Piano_Digital_Piano_with.html

$5995 US converts to
4069 GBP
4519 EUR
7430 CAD
8906 AUD
546200 Yen

propianist, I whole-heartedly agree - the V-Piano is an extremely exciting instrument. The videos provide an excellent example of what can be achieved through mathematical modelling, while the presence of S/PDIF will surely make it a 'must have' toy among the digital audio crowd too! Lovely!

It is true that the design is somewhat similar to the MP8, however I would suggest that the styling is also very similar to the Fender Rhodes (which the original MP9000 design was also clearly influenced by - see http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/Feb03/articles/kawaimp9500.asp)

I am a little curious as to why the V-Piano case should be so large and heavy, however. I am assuming it is using PC-based technology, yet if this was true (given the small footprint of mini-ATX/micro-ATX boards), the case should surely be no larger than their existing RD-700 GX. Perhaps the new action is longer/deeper?

Well, I shall certainly look forward to seeing one of these units in person, and possibly taking off the lid to investigate what is inside!

Kind regards,
James
x

I think so - that explains the shape, so similar to the instruments with a real action.

And about the price: I hope Yamaha and others will compete. It would be nice to pay 1'000$ for such a instrument, not 5'000$.

Well, tinkle my ivories!!!

Guess I won't be buying it soon then...
Roland's stuff is always overpriced IMHO, but I'm not paying that much for a computer with 88 plastic keys...

Well spotted anyway, Jeff. Although I notice the price of $5995 from B&H also includes the Roland KS-V8 proprietary iron frame keyboard stand. Possibly it may be a couple of hundred dollars cheaper without this.
I'm sure my trusty QuikLok WS550 could handle it, and that looks more discreet and elegant anyway with four vertical straight black legs, and it folds flat for transport. Roland's bendy bar alternative is gonna be awkward to transport - you'd have to unscrew the whole thing each time.

Re: it will be nice to see what competitors produce in response...

Now that Yamaha own Bosendorfer, they must've thought about new possibilities in their digital instruments.

KAWAI James, any insights you can give us from your guys...?

I'd like to see a stage piano made with 97 keys (solid wooden, of course) with professional pitch / mod wheels, 6 zones with faders, AES/EBU or S/PDIF digital out, wordclock, balanced TRS jacks and XLR outs, and an integrated generic VST plug-in host CPU engine and 1TB hard drive that could run any VST plug-ins (including my own SoundFonts and SFZ libraries), plus onboard active loudspeakers for handy stage monitoring like the Yamaha P250. Also a built-in 01V96 digital mixer wouldn't be a bad idea either...

I'll be waiting for the home cabinet version..

Maybe the Yamaha AvantGrand is the Bosendorfer digital in a new case with new label?


Peace.

Well, it costs the same $20,000 which puts it out of reach for most people, and those with $20,000 would probaby rather buy a real acoustic grand instead.

It's got extra loudspeakers to vibrate through the keyboard so it feels right underneath your fingers, and projects main sound from the 4 foot baby grand case in a realistic manner too.
Whenever I want to really feel good vibrations, I just plug in my two 21 inch subwoofers and that always does the trick...

Apologies if this is too off topic but I thought you might like to hear how Pianoteq have reacted to the V-piano announcement.

They have posted a comparison of the V-piano and the development version of Pianoteq on their forum and have also stated that the next version of PTQ will be released before the end of April. Their confidence in releasing within that time frame suggests to me that it must very close to release now so it could be much sooner than that.

The thread can be found here.

If it supports CC#1, then you could hook up a control surface - something like the Novation Nocturn - and control modulation, filter etc. from it, for whatever plugins you are running.

Likely V-Piano will support this (HP-207 does, for example) although I would certainly verify that this will work before buying, trying and then going "d'oh"!

Anyway, that's my plan. Use the V-Piano for piano work and also as a master controller (married with a control surface) for synth work.

Lawrence

Hi Kiedysktos,
I think 97 keys would be better for the definitive master keyboard, since you could then play Bosendorfer Imperial samples naturally across their full range without transposing, plus full pipe organ bass pedal range. Others have lamented the lack of a 97 note keyboard on this forum before. Have a look at this thread. 88 keys is standard of course, but the instrument needn't be any wider than an existing Kawai MP8 if the pitch / mod wheels were relocated to the front panel like the MP5 layout, (assuming the mechanism allowed enough clearance for this.)
97 keys also allows for useful keyswitches below the normal 88, and does admittedly extend your range for split zones.

Hi BazC,

re: Pianoteq vs V-Piano.
I think that Pianoteq's algorithms have failed to really sound realistic. The technology is very interesting but the proof is in the pudding! Many have asked Pianoteq why don't they produce a new add-on modelled algorithm for the Steinway D, but they basically refuse, and have carried on modelling antique harpsichords or early 19th century pianos in their add-ons.
Now while they have been fumbling the ball, Roland have come and launched the modelled V-Piano which at last does *attempt* to emulate a New York Steinway D and various famous European concert grands - thus could stand a very good shot at giving pianists access to these most sought after makes and models, complete with the holy grail - realistic sympathetic string resonance, sustain pedal cross resonance, duplex scale resonance, soft pedal, sostenuto pedal, staccato behaviour, re-pedalling, proportional pedalling etc. and all the complex tricks that modelling technology can achieve which have proved too awkward to implement realistically using sample based approaches and scripts.
Personally, I just want to reach that final goal of the affordable, portable Steinway D emulation that I can take to gigs in my car. I don't mind if it's Windows software like Pianoteq or a hardware stage piano or rack module, as long as it really delivers the goods. Pianoteq doesn't (yet).
Maybe V-Piano is a step closer, but until I've played it I'm on the fence - I vividly remember Winter NAMM exactly this time last year, anticipating the Garritan Authorized Steinway's imminent arrival, and thinking that product would be the nearest thing to sounding like whatever you played had been recorded live from a real Steinway D, but it was yet another big disappointment. I do have recordings of myself playing a real Steinway D, but I've yet to find any hi-tech MIDI solution whereby I could substitute that source for the Real McCoy and not notice immediately.

Well it's academic for me since the V-Piano is waaaay out of my price range! I'm looking forward to the next version of Pianoteq (which I can afford) and playing a V-Piano in a shop sometime!

When will the SRX-VPiano card be available?

Slightly off topic, but I had a dream the other day in which I was the project manager of a new MP product.

It kept the wooden key action, control knobs and sliders, but stripped away most of the other legacy hardware. In its place, was a nano-ATX motherboard running an embedded Linux kernel, with an interface controllable through a large multi-touch display.

The sound engine utilised synthesis modelling, but also allowed VST instruments to be loaded from an onboard SSD or separate USB flash stick.

It offered analogue and optical output, and could also master recordings to WAV, FLAC, or MP3.

The instrument was relatively small and compact (despite the long wooden keys), and weighed just under 20 kg.

Then I woke up.

Cheers,
James
x

James:

I think your dream will come true within five years.

It makes sense, and is all technologically possible.

Now I have a question - will you keep the escapement action? It was added to increase the possible rate of repetitive strikes by one hammer. Since we don't need hammers any longer, why keep the escapement action?

Kawai James - If you build it they will come!

Glenn NK - because it feels more like a "piano" that way!

How many more years, decades, or centuries will digital instruments keep trying to emulate a centuries old mechanism versus creating new possibilities to the musician?

Today there remains --just as with the traditional typewriter layout on modern computers -- a chicken and egg problem with the conventional technique acquisition methods of students and related marketing need for calling the instruments digital "pianos", yet it would seem to me that if there was a time to start breaking away from the past, that this time is arriving.

Certainly Yamaha and Kawai would find such a developmental direction more threatening than Roland, Korg or others.

Most of pianist learn on an acoustic, and I think it's good for music; it isn't good idea to change it (I know nobody proposed it). So as long as it happens, pianist know the beauty of real string and real resonance, even if such a instrument have disadvantages. This explains the desire, and supply in effect. So still, huge part of "digital keyboarders" will expect to find instrument which emulates beauty of an acoustic as much as possible.

If piano tones sound electrical, first thing I think: it isn't good instrument, because they can't make better. But if it would be an instrument which provides realistic grand piano sound (but never ideal - we know it), and you can adjust it to go even further and create your own sound, it really make sense. I hope V-piano provides it. But - may I notice - it still want to emulate acoustic instruments, not to be digital: GRAND with another strings, GRAND with different soundboard, GRAND with different strings, and so on.

theJourney - I don't think there's a chicken-and-egg problem at all. There already exist all manner of keyboard-based instruments that continue to provide new and interesting ways to interact with sound and, ultimately, music. I don't expect that development to ever stop. Humankind's inventiveness and curiosity will make sure of that.

The piano, on the other hand, antiquated though it may be, is a pleasing and useful musical instrument. Unfortunately it's also heavy, expensive, environmentally sensitive, and requires constant maintenance. Hence the development of digital pianos which are portable, inexpensive, reliable, and durable.

My point being that if you want a next-generation keyboard-driven musical instrument there are many available and more will come. If, however, you want a piano that you can afford, lift, and maintain yourself you buy a digital piano that attempts to emulate as closely as possible the experience of playing that 19th-century beast we all know and love!

The second you get away from hammers and strings, and digital representations of such, it ceases to be a piano.

Let's assume we get a really daring piano maker that makes the soundboard, plate and entire action out of carbon fiber. String it with piano strings, and I bet it'll be clearer, more powerful then a wood piano -- but it'd still sound much like a piano. You cant' get away from the nature of the beast, and that's why digitals emulate the physical. we *wanted* them to. There were other attempts -- early synths, Rhodes tine pianos, Wulitzer electrics.. honestly.. they didn't sound a bit like a real pianos.

Digitals sound close to real pianos.

To see a vivid illustration of what I mean, hit Luis and Clark\'s website . They make carbon fiber violins, viols, basses, cellos, etc. And I don't mean wood covered with a thin veneer of carbonfiber, I mean the entire instrument sans pegs and bridge is made of carbon. The tone is dry and powerful, yet you can still tell it's a stringed instrument descended from almost 1000 years of stringed instruments.

You can't get away from the nature of the beast.

But I maintain -- the second you drop the strings and hammers, or digital representations of them, it's not a piano anymore. It's something else.

This made me think... why don't I see carbon soundboards? Actions? (entire actions, not just little bits of it..) Why don't I see carbon-fiber bourdons in organs? Can you imagine an entire windchest, pallet and action built out of carbon instead of hand-carved wood?

I can imagine a piano that's 100% carbon except for the strings.

But then, some would still complain that it's too old-school because it still has hammers and strings.

I don't want to see the piano go away. Ever. Same with the organ.

By all means, innovate -- build new instruments.

But again.. if that new instruments still has hammers and strings.. it's a piano. And if a digital system emulates that phsysical instrument, well, it's still a digital piano.

What is sacred about the piano? - it's a relatively new instrument, and it was conceived to replace the clavichord.

And compared to most other acoustic musical instruments, it's very expensive, very heavy, and requires a tremendous amount of care and upkeep.

And it's still evolving - a modern grand really isn't much like Cristofori's pianoforte. I was discussing the changes made in pianos over the years with my piano-rebuilder friend, and he thought that carbon fibre would make much better keys and hammers. By using carbon fibre, the rotational mass of the key and hammer system can be made lighter which would improve the repetition rate possible on a piano. CF is dimensionally stable when subjected to humidity changes - wood is not. As a structural engineer, I do some considerable design with wood - it's a constant problem in terms of stability.

I truly love the piano (and have for more than 62 years), but I recognize its limitations. It's going to evolve some more.

Apparently someone also recognized the limitations of the acoustic guitar - other than six strings and a bridge and tuning pegs, the electric guitar used by rock musicians doesn't sound or look much like an acoustic guitar.

Glenn - nothing is sacred about the piano! I love the idea of a piano re-designed from the ground up to take advantage of 21st century advances in materials and production. However all of the instruments that are still called pianos and their variants (Rhodes, Wurly, CP70 etc), stick with the " press the keys, fast attack and a full sounding sustain" paradigm.

I think the question is how much can one change the instrument and still call it a piano? Could you still call it a piano if you pulled on the keys, the attack was slow and the sustain portion sounded like a horn?

^ That's called an organ ;o)

To me the sacred bits of the piano are:

1. Hammers
2. Strings
3. Soundboard

Do the hammers and strings and soundboard need to be physical? Not in my book. But they need to be present, even if in virtual form. Which is exactly what a digital piano is. Doubly so with those who are 100% model-based.

The materials and execution of such sacred bits is not sacred. I really honestly want to see a carbon fiber soundboard, hammer heads, hammer shanks, well, the whole action really, including keys. Why not? Because a bunch of fuddy duddies will declare it a nonpiano? Bull. Build it, people will try it, and if it's good, people will buy it.

Interesting... http://www.rainsong.com/deal/

^ Yea. like that. That's two acoustic instrument families in carbon. The Luis and Clark fiddles, and now these guitars.

I want one!

It's interesting that two out of three essentials of a piano are the same as a guitar and the violin family (and other stringed instruments).

Guitars would be the closest because the strings are struck or plucked - often with a hard object such as a fingernail or a pick.

When I was much younger, I played the ukelele, and my favourite pick was felt (why does this material seem familiar? ).

What has often struck me is that more than a few digital pianos have a sound that resembles a guitar. Of course if we think about the physics of the two acoustic instruments and how the sound is produced by the physics, the similarity is less surprising.

As you say, "build it, people will try it, and if it's good, people will buy it".

This will be the test, not whether it meets the criteria of any expert. This must not be construed as a put down on anyone, it's just a statement of reality.

As with any instrument that produces pleasant musical sounds, the real test is that the sounds are pleasing; not what the instrument looks like or how it produces these sounds.

I think Roland (and Pianoteq) are on to something, and the rest had better try to catch up.

Glenn

I've tried the Pianoteq demo version for the past several days. It is very nice to play - responds smoothly, but, it is not accurate in terms of what a piano should sound like. So, it's off of my list at least until the next major version is released.

I'm hopeful for the V-Piano, but of course it's not yet available to try out. You can't really judge based on compressed audio from online video, and I frankly have to laugh at comparisons between the V-Piano and Pianoteq. How can you compare? You can't until the V-Piano is actually available for us less fortunate to try out!

However, I personally know someone who was privy to the private demonstrates of the V-Piano at NAMM, and I have great faith and respect for this individual's opinion.

His observation? It is absolutely mind-blowing what this piano does and how pure a sound it can produce. What's great about V-piano is that you can make sound EXACTLY the way you want, on a note-by-note, hammer-by-hammer, string-by-string basis.

So, it will be interesting to get to try out the V-Piano (and also the Pianoteq update when it arrives). In the meantime, I'm saving my money pile.

Lawrence

Interestingly enough there is an ad to the right of this forum for Wessell, Nickel and Gross composite action parts.

I am not familiar with them but it seems to fit in this discussion.

Most of the shops here in the UK are now advertising V-Piano for £4,999.00 GB pounds. Ouch!
It has ETA of April 2009.
There is another 10 minute video to watch about it here .

So how realistic DOES it sound?

Does anyone have a list of exactly what parameters the user can edit?
I'd like to know if you can adjust the string's overall sustain duration and peak attack to average level ratio for a struck string.
I like the fact that you can make your adjustments over a specific keyboard range only, unlike Pianoteq where everything is global and you keep fighting it because tweaking the bass messes up the treble, etc. Roland have got it right in this respect.

Does anyone know what digital audio rates it supports? It obviously has coaxial S/PDIF output, which we would expect to be a full 24 bit wordlength true stereo signal, but I wonder if it can generate 96kHz or 192kHz output from the theoretical maths processing going on?

What is the virtual listener's position with respect to the audio generated?
I assume they've at least included player perspective plus a distant / ambient audience perspective, as seems fashionable these days. It does have some built in reverb / ambience effects, which are likely to be convolution based. It would be nice however (if the ambient soundstaging were also the result of pure mathematical modelling rather than a sampled convolution reverb (which would defeat the object by colouring the whole audio with the convolved audio recording of the sampled reverb impulse anyway!)) if the listener perspective was user adjustable in a virtual 3D environment whereby you could move your "ears" up / down, closer / further away and all around the virtual modelled instrument using your choice of (X,Y,Z) axis Cartesian co-ordinates in millimetres.
But I doubt that the V-Piano model maths includes such spatial radiation patterns from the instrument into a virtual environment like this.
That would be ideal for totally customisable stereo soundstages, and even 5.1 or 7.1 surround perspectives, although the V-Piano doesn't have any 5.1 outputs of course so obviously the technology isn't there yet.

So far, I haven't heard very much mention about the piano's spurious mechanical noises, as Roland's theoretical model seems to begin with a felt hammer striking a string? I'm sure they have included pedal squeaks, key movement knocks and scrapes and so on, but I don't remember seeing it.
To me when I close me eyes and listen to V-Piano demos the bass and middle of the keyboard sound great (extremely convincing) but just at the top octave or two of the keyboard I can somehow tell it's a digital instrument and not quite real.
Obviously, this could just be the low quality internet video's compressed audio track messing up the sound, but I that should probably degrade everything similarly, not just the high notes only, so maybe I am hearing something of the V-Piano's sonic character, but I'd certainly need to play the actual instrument to make any serious judgment.

Joke - if they're really gonna make a realistic digital piano, it should gradually go out of tune and "age" to a duller tone if you play it continuously for years.

Musician's Friend..5,999.99 ETA June/09..

High-resolution audio demos for V-Piano

http://www.sonicstate.com/news/2009/02/02/wnamm09-v-piano-soundfiles-uploaded/

Quoting Sonic State:

“Since we put the exclusive demo of the V-Piano on line from NAMM where we were ushered into a private room to see the new keyboard, we've had several requests to post higher resolution audio files of the session. Thanks to the marvel of modern technology, we did record them to a separate stereo recorder and have indeed now posted them at 44.1/16-bit for you.

Once again, thanks to John Maul for the great demo and Sean and Amanda from Roland for making this possible.”

propianist, provided you didn't mind AC3 compressed audio, the S/PDIF on the V-Piano connect theoretically output surround sound.

Cheers,
James
x

Interesting what you say. You say a lot...
Nobody talked about the timing of this "machine".
For me it sounds on the demo like the same as many other older digital pianos: Playing more than 5 Notes at the same time will not make sound those notes in the same time, you'll have always a "prrrrrrp" as chord instead of a clear "one shot" like on a real piano.
The fact, that in all those comments NOBODY talked about this, makes me belive, that nobody is fully aware of this difference.
As long as we have this serial timing- desease MIDI, we'll have this problem.
I've read about newer technologies than MIDI that can do a lot of things more now, but they are obviously also not good for reducing the serial "prrrrrrr"- problem...

angelvoice, may I please ask you to point out in which of the video clips (and at what point) the arpeggio effect that you describe is most noticeable?

I strongly doubt that Roland would ever release a product with such an obvious limitation.

Furthermore, while you are correct about the technical barriers imposed by the dated MIDI standard, I also doubt that the V-Piano utilises MIDI for internally generated sounds, so this should not be an issue.

Remember, Roland have been in the musical instrument industry for many many years - I fully trust their engineers to deliver an excellent product.

Kind regards,
James
x

I've briefly tried the V-Piano.

I liked it lot more than I thought I would. For example, the single notes in the "Dewster test" sounded very drab to me. When playing it for real, I didn't notice as much of this drabness.

Other points:
- It has the metallic quality that I like a lot. It really sounds like STEEL strings vibrating.

- I like the richness of the slow phasing, as the notes evolve, presumably due to slight unison detuning. It has a sort of "vocal" quality to it - like it's trying to speak to you. It also often has a kind of mournful, wailing sound, which I find quite infectious.

Greg.

Greg,

I've just got rid of my V-Piano (must change my signature!)...I found it had an odd cocktail of ingredients. No so much good and bad but exceptional and annoying is how I would put it. Key action, connection of keys to sound (playability), tonal change according to velocity, the bass (wow!), editability, perceived quality (keys, case, finish etc)...all exceptional. But, tonally annoying to be honest. The midrange has a kind of synthetic timbre that, once noticed, drills into your head until you can't stand it. I'm overstating it actually but it really began to bug me. I was in denial for a while considering what it cost me but you can't live with something that makes you feel like that. So after much begging on my part the shop treated me very well and gave me a credit note...now spent on a RD-700GX with Supernatural upgrade and a soon-to-arrive HP-307 in polished ebony. To me the RD is more pleasing, more of the time, than the V.

I have aired my views about the V-Piano with others at the shop and with Roland personnel and whilst no one told me I was wrong all everyone kept saying was "I'm not hearing what you hear". I've come to the conclusion that for most people that don't over-think it the V-Piano is a fantastic thing for what it can do as a musical instrument in the purest sense. For those with a definite idea of what they want sonically from a piano, it may not be the one...it certainly wasn't for me anyway. I'm sorry about how it turned out...I really wanted to love it, I tried to love it. I think it has carved itself a little place in history though.

Cheers,

Steve

Steve, it's a shame the V-Piano didn't work out for you.

But wow, an RD700GX and a top of the range HP-307 in Ebony Polish?!
You lucky bugger!

I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts about how the keyboard action and piano sound (with the SuperNatural board in the RD-700GX) compare.

Cheers,
James
x

Steve, on my visit to the East Coast of Canada, there was one dealer that had a V-Piano on the floor, and it was heavily discounted...apparently it had been returned, and traded for an Avant Grand N3.

The store owner said he wasn't pleased with the instrument, especially after all the hype....and he's usually one who plays a Roland.

My buddy Zeke has a friend who just bought an RD-700 with the SuperNatural, so we're getting together over the weekend for a jam, so I'll get to play it through a Yamaha Stagepas 500 stereo PA we have set up at Zeke's.

That will be a great test for it...in a small combo situation.

And you got an HP-307 as well...cool! You got a good deal.

I'd be interested if you found the keys (especially the whites) as rough feeling as I did. The one I played was a demo, and may have seen a bit of harder than normal use.



Snazzy

Thanks James and Snazzy!

Well my plan was to have the RD and a CP5 when they're out but...well, it's a long story! CP5 or its successor is probably what I'll go to in a couple of years...

Snazz, when the RD-700 is upgraded with the SN board it powers up to the SN Grand Piano 1 voice. I like it but it is little bit brittle sounding in the upper mids...I like all the SN pianos to some degree but my fave is the SN Grand Piano 4 with the key touch set using the key offset parameter to half way between medium and hard. I'm really liking this voice. The V-Piano is already a memory - I wonder how long the shop will have it before someone buys it. Notwithstanding perceptions about its tone, I think the Roland people must look at the CP1 family and be horrified that they didn't have the foresight to get stuck in with some cutting edge Rhodes sounds...whatever Roland may do in that regard, ie, devise new vintage EP patches, it will look like playing catch-up with Yamaha, which is ironic because at first the CP1 made it look like Yamaha was the one playing catch-up!

I prefer the Yamaha synthetic ivory to Roland's. Roland have lately made a subtle change to their Ivory Feel information sheet that comes with relevant pianos...it seems to me that they believe the slight change that occurs over time to the key surface is just a characteristic of the material. From what I've seen on shop floor pianos it might be that dirt on peoples hands acts as an abrasive, wears the textured finish a little bit then gets ingrained in the porous key surface...just my theory. They have apparently improved the formula of the plastic but whatever it is I think it is inferior to the Yamaha stuff (which also looks more natural to me).

James, the 307 should be here later this month...comparing it to the RD will be interesting but I expect them to be more or less the same. I don't have a preference between PHA II (RD) and PHA III (V-Piano/307), they are both pretty good, PHA III slightly more crisp I would say. The main difference is the extra sensor as per Yamaha GH3 for quicker repetitions...that sort of stuff is well beyond my meagre talents to discover though!

Cheers,

Steve

+1

Cheers Steve!

By the way, don't forget to update your signature line!

James
x

@propianist

You can adjust individual notes with Pianoteq Pro.

Pianoteq is my favorite to play. It is true, it does not sound exactly like a real high end grand.

I find myself switching back and forth between Pianoteq and Ivory, and sometimes TruePianos Diamond, depending on the style of music I play.

If I'm playing for an audience (i.e. guests in our home) I always fire up Ivory. That seems to be the most pleasing on an audience's ears. I also enjoy it more for classical pieces. However, if I'm playing a ballad or slow jazz piece for myself, I play Pianoteq (M3 mostly and occasionally C3), because it envelopes me and I "feel" the piece more than with Ivory. Sometimes I bring out TruePianos Diamond for pop and up tempo jazz.

The main suggestions I have for the makers of Pianoteq are the following: 1. Listen to the bass in Ivory, make Pianoteq sound like that. Ivory has a rich, deep, real bass. Pianoteq's bass is sluggish sounding. 2. I want to hear strings in the mid-range of pianoteq in the M3 and C3, but not the banjo-like strings of the rock piano mode.

I really wish Pianoteq and Synthogy Ivory would get together and combine the lush resonance and decay of Pianoteq with the realistic samples of Ivory.

Sorry if this is a tangent off the V-piano topic. I've heard recordings from the V-piano, which to me sound like Pianoteq, but I've never played one.

In this clip ("Chick Corea Akoustic Band - How deep is the ocean" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tB7EEpB-uoE I can hear the same kind of thin, phasey sound in the middle registers that I think the V-Piano is reproducing well. I.e - many of the notes sound like the unisons are almost completely out of phase, causing hardly any sound at all, and the V-Piano has this. (I don't know how much of this is due to micing?) It gives the piano real character - I like it.

Here's a V-Piano recording which I think exhibits this character (but not quite to the same extent): Águas Cristalinas versão piano ( Marquinhos Gomes )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgkOVbMh9kA

Greg.

Nice comparison.

Hi,

For those that missed it on another thread, here is a link to my shared folder of V-Piano demos in decent quality, some featuring the "Evolution" voices:

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=23fab7ed7f98c959d9d5c56d04dfa8b0c5c196e935b665a1ea4ac78345cbe4ce

Cheers,

Steve

.

I think that is most likely because of the speakers you used and how they were set up. Speakers are always the weak link with digital pianos. When I tried the v-piano the store had them connect to a pair of m-audio monitor speakrs that were worth less then 1/10th the price of the piano. That's a poor way to sell pianos. I would have connected it to the best audio system available at the store and likely sold a lot more pianos and sound systems.

With enough care and money you could have very good sound live.

Yes I agree 100% that the v-piano is best for recording. I think that is what it was made for (Notice the S/PDIF fiber optic output)
I think the target market for a v-paino may not be the home piano market. It is best suited for use by a music producer in a studio that has limited space and the producer wants to fine tune the piano sound to match the music. That adjustably would be very valuable in a small studio that does all kinds of work. The big guys can keep three grands and an upright on casters and can afford a stack of $2,000 microphones. A single v-piano can replace multiple acoustics and those mics. There are more of these small recording studios than you think. I could walk to three of them from my house. Radio spots, tv commercials corporate training videos and you name it all need recorded music. and then bands need demos and so on.

.

The Guitar Center on Pico Bl. Has a room of sound reinforcement gear adjacent to the digital piano room and they sell PA gear that would be fine for a 5,000 seat venue. The store is huge, two large floors.

Never having played a "D", how would you compare the action on the V-Piano to a Steinway? I know the PHA-III is very different from my Yamaha P155. The Yamaha keys seem to be more damped than Roland's

Other then the P155 I get to play an older Kawai digital and infrequently a Kawai grand. Even for a beginner like myself it is not all that hard moving between those three. I think the p155 or a cp33 if you did not need speakers or a Kawai CN22 would make ideal "occasional practice instrument" All of those are at least $4k less than a v-piano.

My experience, as well, when auditioning both the V-Piano and CP1. I tried these instruments out at several different stores, and in all cases they were hooked up to crappy, underwhelming monitors. Talk about mismatching audio and DP's.

The rule of thumb for years when buying a home stereo system was to spend half the budget for speakers. The rest of the budget on "sources and amp" But now days most people will us an iPod as the source and the price of amps has gone way down. So now I say "2/3 of the budget on speakers". But beginners never listen. They like to blow the budget on fancy looking electronics and use cheap speakers. Few see the value of $1,000 speaker but for some reason like to buy $1,000 A/V receivers.

Guitar players know the sound is in the speakers and endlessly debate which brand is best or if you can mix two brands and on and on. Must guitar players have strong opinion about speakers. But digital piano players seem to be stupid about speakers and sound. I think this comes from piano training. We are told that piano players just play "whatever piano is there" They don't haul their grand pianos with them. So gear is not an issue. But DPs are different but even so your average Keyboard player is clueless about speakers and amps where as guitar and bass plays live by them.

I think anyone buying a DP for other than home practice or hobby use needs to think about spending a large fraction of the total budget on audio gear. But just like the beginner stereo people they won't. They buy a $2K piano and get some $200 speakers and then complain that DPs just don't have the sound and range of an acoustic.

Hi there,

May I ask a naive but essential question? How trustworthy is this instrument if a pianist does practive while in travel? I mean, older instruments I had like A-90 and HP-530e were of unacceptably poor quality materials, resulting in broken parts within a few years...!
The features are nice, the touch superior but how long it will last? And if something is broken what are the delays and prices associated? Just compare against a conventional grand.

Thank you
Antonis

Compared to an acoustic grand?? Could even take an acoustic grand with you? I know how hard it is to travel on an airplane and multiple cases of scuba and underwater video gear. That would be trivial compared to trying to check a grand piano at the baggage counter.

Even a digital piano is not easy to travel with. first you need a heavy and expensive shipping case with built-in wheels and they will hit you with a $50 to $100 over size baggage charge every time.

I was just talking about this very problem with someone last weekend. He's been playing piano for many years but now has to travel a lot and is looking to take up a second instrument just so to have something to play when stuck in a hotel room. Putting his Yamaha P120 in a case was not acceptable to him. Guitar seems like a great idea.

I am surprised nobody has come up with a modular keyboard yet, shouldn't be that hard to do something that breaks apart in 2-3 pieces (so it can be transported in regular luggage) and that you can reassemble quickly at your destination.

The Traveler Escape MK-II series is what I'd buy if I had to travel a lot and wanted a guitar with me:

http://guitars.musiciansfriend.com/produ...itar?sku=513815
http://guitars.musiciansfriend.com/produ...itar?sku=513813
http://bass-guitars.musiciansfriend.com/...itar?sku=513816

That short scale bass looks really sweet. The spruce top is a bit off-putting though.

I can tell you first hand that an plain old ordinary Fender Strat is no big deal to carry around. The gig bag's shoulder strap works really well. You can buy one for $100 on Craigslist so you don't even have to worry about it getting banged up or lost. And it's hard to damage being made of solid wood.

My wife's flute case is even smaller and easier to carry.

Hey, I was misundestood! I mean a 40 kg piece + case and stand are not that difficult if one travels by car as I do. My worry is only about the inside materials, that for previous models were proven not resistant. I would not write jokes to this list like taking a real piano aboard (though Richter himself dreamt about having a truck to load the piano and travel along villages to play in the church!!!)
The feeling of Roland's PHA is splendid, but what about inside construction???

rgds
antonis