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Joined: Apr 2006
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Hi,
I'm new to this forum, and look forward to receiving help from guys here who have bought digitals themselves, and give some hopefully help other new buyers in the future with my experience when I do buy one.
My question was if anyone knows how many levels of sound (soft to loud) can you get on the yamaha clp series, the kawai's rolands and gem?
I have tried the yamaha clp's 200 series in shops and I was surprised to find I could only hear about 4 or so differenct levels, and about 5 on the gem rp800 that I tried. is this really all they do? maybe i just couldn't play any other levels.
Another weird thing, off topic, is that i found the yamaha compared action very hard to play different loudness, because how hard i press it for playing soft to loud is not much difference compared to playing on the GEM RP800 and roland HP101. I did set the yamaha on hard. this is strange because people say that the yammies action is the hardest? i've never played an acoustic piano before (well just a couple times) so maybe this the action on the yamaha is how it's suppose to be?
Also, just to let anyone else interested know, i found the sound on the yamaha (it was actually a clp230, so just one level sampling) the nicest. I don't mean by it being better by having timbre change at different levels of loudness or having sympathetic resounces, because the 230 has not even got those. but in general the sound of the yamaha was more sweet sort of tone (is that the right word?) which was nice.
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Your question seems to be the result of not having played acoustic pianos much. If you had, then you wouldn't be asking this. The playing principle is basically the same on all keyboards: harpsichord, clavichord, piano, organ, early electric piano, 61-key portable keyboard, digital piano, etc (you can play any piano music on any of these keyboards--and a skillful pianist could make it sound good on any of them). There are vast differences in sound production, sound quality, sound characteristics, key action, etc., in all of these, but playing them all is basically the same: you press the keys in the proper order, sometimes hard, sometimes softly. On most keyboards, pressing the keys hard will produce a louder sound than when you press them softly, but not always; for example, the harpsichord plays at basically one volume level no matter how hard you press the keys, but a lot of early keyboard music written for the harpsichord is still played today on modern pianos--so what does that say about the need for all kinds of volume levels in keyboard playing?
The range of volume levels on all digital pianos today is more than enough for playing any kind of keyboard music. (There are apparently people, though, who will trade in a grand piano for another one that supposedly will allow them to get a better pianissimo in the particular piece they are playing.)
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most Yamaha models have 3-level sampling, while the new CLP 200 series (from 240?) have 4-level sampling.
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Reviewing some points discussed a long time ago, the CLP280 (which I own) has samples at 4 levels but a theoretical dynamic range (as I recall) of 8 bits or 128 levels.
Now, actually detecting those levels with your ears may be difficult.
I find that backing off on the master volume control helps to achieve more dynamic range or more apparent volume levels. When the volume is cranked up to 3/4 or higher I lose sense a loss of range.
I also use the "heavy" touch response setting only because my teacher's piano is a sluggish beast. But I can't say this have much effect on the dynamics.
Phil
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Thanks for the reply guys.
Hmm. I just thought of something because of what palley said and signa said. because the yamha clp 240 has 3 levels of dynamic sampling (i actually tried the 240 too but not next to the rp800) but susposedly can generate 128 levels of loudness. since you have a yamaha Palley, Do you know if the change in sample really is just one transition kicked off above a certain loudness?
------------- PS. if any yamaha dealers in UK read this and have CLP-240 in stock (boxed) right now and sell for £1200 or less please PM me I will buy right away.
or anyone who wants to sell used CLP's around essex or herts can PM me too.
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You will get 128 levels of loudness with a typical decent digital pianos. For example Yamaha CLP 240 has 3 sample layers per note (p, mf, f) but that does not mean you can only play at 3 loudness level. They sampled 3 different times per each note becasue tonal quality of p and f is quite different.
From that 3 samples per note, they basically play louder or softer depends on how hard you press the keys. From range (I am gussing here) 1-40, they will use "p" sample, but play them gradually louder as you press harder. Once you hit harder than 40 (again, guessing the number here), then the piano will swtich over to the "mf" sample, and play them louder and louder until and so on.
I hope that makes sense?
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BTW, Yamaha's Hard/Normal/Soft does not change the dynamics or sound quality at all. It just maps the numbers to different loudness.
If you set it on "Hard", it will bascically take you more effort (arm & finger weight) to get the same loudness as if you were to set it on "soft".
Think of it like turning the volume down slightly, so now you have to play harder to play as loud as before. This is what "hard" setting does.
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I have a CLP-280 also, and there are certainly many more than 4 discrete loudness levels. However, I too have noticed that the touch is very sensitive; a little harder yields a larger increase in volume than would a similar increase on my lovely old Willis.
This was particularly noticeable when I first started to use it with my old headphones (Sennheiser 430s). They are of quite a high input impedance, and even with the volume full up you had to really hammer to get a loud sound. I bought a set of Grado headphones that are more sensitive and now get a louder result with the volume back at 3/4.
The sensitivity was one of the reasons I bought the digital. It forces me to practice a very even touch, which (I hope) will translate to a better controlled pianissimo when playing pianos other than mine. I hope to be able to gradually put up the volume and still play as softly.
As far as hard actions go, I compared several new Yamahas against an 80 year old Bluthner (5' 8") a short time ago. The Bluthner action was a little shorter, if that is the term for how far down the keys go, but not much lighter. Although the Yamaha grands are much like the CLP, on the grand you can feel slightly varying resistance as different parts of the action come into play, which you can't on the CLP (or Bluthner).
You might find that trying a different set of headphones is worthwhile.
Willis (1910) and Yamaha CLP-280
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However, I too have noticed that the touch is very sensitive; a little harder yields a larger increase in volume than would a similar increase on my lovely old Willis. Glad it's not just me, because I did not notice the same thing on the RP800 and roland piano. It's a pity they built it so sensitive even on the hard setting, this makes it pretty point less to have to have the 3 touch settings if even the hard setting is so sensitive. I think I'll have to go for the RP800. Apart from my preference for the yamaha sound to the rp800, the rp800 seems to beat the yamaha by action and value for money to me (clp240 and rp800 in 'polish ebony' and delivered to a flat and built for almost same price here in uk, with the rp800 less then a hundred pounds more expensive). The rp800 sound was second best to me anyway, initial it was my favourite tho, but when gem dealer played the two models for me to compare i found the yamaha sound nicer then when i played it. strange heh.
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Originally posted by kienny: …..The rp800 sound was second best to me anyway, initial it was my favourite tho, but when gem dealer played the two models for me to compare i found the yamaha sound nicer then when i played it. strange heh. May I suggest to you that it might also be interesting to play both models side by side with an acoustic grand? This isn’t to say that there is anything wrong with your liking the tonal characteristic of one brand over another. Everybody hears differently. But it is a far truer test to compare against the real thing. You may still like the other one, which is fine, but at least you will know which one sounds and responds more like an actual acoustic instrument. Best Regards, Dave
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Yes, very fair point dave. To anybody that read that post of mine, that was just my opinion and it is a completely amatuers opinion because I have never even played an acoustic. Funny enough, the dealer was also trying to tell me when she was playing the two models (yamaha 230 and gem rp800) that the RP800 was more acoustic like, i nodded to agree, but i really couldn't tell! (again because i have a bad ear)
BTW dave, are all the samples in the RP800 just as good quality as the grand piano samples (unlike yamahas, which only have very good GP1 sample i think)? this would be another good selling point of the RP800 if it's true.
If you are allowed to, can you tell us how much memory is used for one piano sample?
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kienny:
There is some very good information posted on the RP800 (GRP800) in the thread _Opinions from GEM owners_. The last few entries (#33 to end) contain some information that will probably answer your question.
Dave might correct me on the following statement but from what I understand the samples that are on the RP800 are used as references for the modeling system, the actual sample is not sounded (at least as stored in memory). The DRAKE technology creates the sound in real time based on a mathematical model of a Grand Piano and takes into account the current state of the keys (which ones are held etc) as well as any changes of state in the pedals.
Voyager
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That's right. The acctual sample is not sounded as the key is pressed. The mathematically created sound in between of ff and pp samples with additional harmonics and sound characteristics carefully computed by DRAKE is played instead. That provides incredibly authentic acoustic piano sound.
M.
Mateusz Papiernik https://maticomp.net"One man can make a difference" - Wilton Knight Kawai CN21 (digital), Henryk Yamayuri Kawai NX-40 (grand)
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A touch of tendonitis has left me with time on my hands to look at the details of the CLP-280 settings. Kienny may want to try changing the "touch sensitivity" setting, which is available through the voice settings menu, rather than the function menu. The touch sensitivity allows the relationship between force of key press to loudness to be adjusted. The harpsichord is set to 127 (max volume regardless of how hard you strike), default for Grand Piano 1 is 64 (maximum sensitivity to differences in strike force). 0 would be minimum volume regardless of striking force.
Willis (1910) and Yamaha CLP-280
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kienny,
Unless Yammy has changed its design for the newer models such as Palley's, the touch settings are a clever psycho-acoustic illusion. What happens is that the heavier settings cut off the lowest-numbered MIDI control change messages, so you have to press harder to get any sound at all. This is accompanied by filtering, which alters the timbre to a darker tone. The actual touch weight never varies.
When I was playing my P80 and P200 regularly, I switched to the Light setting, to get the full dynamic range, even tho the brightness of that setting could become annoying over a long playing session.
If you want the best quality piano sounds and the full dynamic range, you'll have to buy third-party samples and store them on your computer. I currently use Art Vista's Virtual Grand samples which are from a Steinway B.
DavidH
PS, I learned about the touch settings from a Yamaha employee who used to post regularly on this forum.
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Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:34 PM
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Piano
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