I really would appreciate your thoughts and possibly a little direction concerning the purchase of a high end digital piano.

First, let me start with a bit of background. My wife and I have played piano as a hobby for about 20 years each. Playing the piano brings us much joy and is a great outlet for stress (we have plenty!) We currently have two children - one is 2 and the other 2 months. We hope to introduce all of our kids to the piano at an appropriate age. We currently have an old and tired upright (I believe it is made by a company called 'Grand') which is out of tune (having moved from Philadelphia to South Texas and now to North Idaho!). My wife is a physician and I am a software engineer who works part-time out of the home.

We have always wanted a grand (my wife grew up with a grand piano). We moved up here to North Idaho to fulfill a 4 year service obligation to repay a federal scholarship that payed her way through medical school. We do not know if we will stay in the area or not (we do love it here!). We were not able to purchase our 'dream home' here and were disappointed that the home really doesn't have enough room for a large piano. We hope that in the next 3-5 years we will again move (either to a new home in this community that we build from scratch or to a new area of the country).

While visiting a friend and lamenting over our tired upright and how we cannot own our dream piano in our current home, we were introduced to the concept of purchasing a digital piano. Having gone to our first piano showroom yesterday, I was pleasantly surprised to find a piano that had a great touch as well as terrific sound (I looked at the Kawai CP177D).

My questions:
1) What models are available that compare to the Kawai CP177D and what are their advantages/disadvantages?
2) What should we expect to pay for such a piano? I made the mistake of telling the employee that my wife was a physician. Unfortunately, they are the only music store selling Kawai's in a large area and I am afraid that the amount he quoted was quite high. Having said this, we have a very generous budget and are willing to pay the price for a decent model.
3) Are there any significant differences between the two models I looked at: CP177D vs CP137.

I have enjoyed this forum for a long time and look forward to hearing what your thoughts are.

edited to add: For those who need more information regarding budget to suggest a model - we are looking to spend between $4000 - $8000. Thanks again for your help!

Availability can be an issue in many areas. Yamaha is by far the largest player in the digital world, so should have the best distribution network. Have you checked to see what brands are available within the distance that you'd be willing to drive? Shopping around will also give you leverage with the local dealer.

No matter which piano you buy, a set - or two - of studio-quality headphones will let you experience the true quality of the included sounds. In general digital pianos' bass speakers are too small for realistic reproduction of the bass register. For the past few years I've been using Sennheiser's HD 580's or the newer 600's. These circumaural phones are reasonably comfortable for extended play, tho I did find that the 580's were actually more comfortable. I think that you can still find them on the web. Quality 'phones are also useful for auditioning included sounds.

There's no substitute for auditioning. With acoustics, it's tone, touch, appearance, then price. With digitals, touch should probably rank first, because it can't be changed.

You can change the tone of a DP by buying third-party sounds which are stored on your computer and accessed via MIDI, but doing that also requires buying a good-quality soundcard whose specs include ASIO drivers. Not expensive, but necessary.

Yamaha doesn't sample every note when constructing its included sounds. I *think* that Kawai does. IMO the size of the included sounds is so small that it's best to judge them by what is most pleasing to your ears. Included sounds which use reverb can sound good when first heard, but may not be satisfying over the long run. A good argument for making multiple auditions.

Each of the major brands - Yamaha, Kawai, and Roland - has its own feel. GEM and Korg probably do, too.

BTW, touch settings on digitals are a clever psycho-acoustic illusion. The actual touch weight never varies; it can't. What happens is that when you increase the setting, the lower numbered MIDI control messages - the ones that trigger the softer notes - get cut off, so you have to press harder to get any sound at all. On the two Yamahas I own/have owned, increasing the touch setting also functions as an unwelcome tone filter, which creates an increasingly dark and muddy sound. In any case, if you want to experience the full dynamic range of a DP, set the touch to Light or 1. Default is usually Medium, or 2.

Yamaha's graded hammer boards will permit fast repetition, but some folks find that the keys bounce back too fast. Also the Yammy keys bottom hard, so taking an occasional break is a good idea. I now play a digital baby grand which has an action from an acoustic upright, but for the c.2 1/2 years that I played Yammies, I liked their feel and was willing to put up with the hard bottoming.

Three of the people who post here and who also own and play seriously on acoustic grands chose the Yamaha CLP 280. (Piano only, no accompaniments.)

Kawais are sometimes criticised for presenting difficulties with making fast runs which include the black keys. I first noticed this when researching consumer reviews of the MP9000 on Harmony Central. Their current boards are, I think, a refinement, tho not fundamentally changed. Something to do with the positioning of the single balance rail. People who like these would say that they provide a realistic facsimile of an acoustic. What do your fingers - and your wife's - say?

Etc., etc.

Wooden keys are all the rage. IMO it's the action, not the key material. Your fingers may differ.

The equivalent Yamaha is probably in the CVP 300 series. I looked briefly at the Yamaha site and the 307 seemed to be close.

Thanks for the response. I will definately take into account many of your comments/suggestions. I live about an hour and a half from Spokane, WA which has a large assortment of stores. I do believe I have access to all of the major manufacturers. The issue is that the next largest market is quite a distance (Seattle, Portland). Therefore, (for example) the Kawai dealer has a relative monopoly on Kawai sales in the region.

I found online a public notice for an award from a public school district. The price quote for the Kawai CP177D is $5726 which is thousands less than I was quoted. Should I be looking in the $6,000 range, or do school districts typically receive a significant discount? When I see information that leads me to believe that a salesperson is misleading me or overcharging, it typically turns me off so much so that I don't want to do business with them, but I don't want to make any quick decisions at this point. I still need to audition several other instruments to determine what our real needs are. (However, I really did like the Kawai!!!)

That's good news about your locale.

There is an "institutional price," and it's much lower for acoustics, too.

The salesman-I-can't-stand is a perennial. You just have to work thru it. Bottom line is whether you get what you want.

Patience and persistence.

Remember the WAF (wife acceptance factor).

I suppose our issue would be that we view this as an 'intermediate' instrument - something that will fulfill our needs until we are ready for the big purchase of a grand piano. Therefore, we don't want to go way over what the value of the instrument is if we only plan on using it for a couple of years (3-5).

Now - I will concede that there is a possibility that we fall in love with the digital and will keep it and purchase another piano as well - but that is years away and I don't want to make that assumption at this point. Therefore, although I understand the logic that the important thing is that you get what you want - we feel that the most important thing is that we get what we want at a reasonable fair price. I think that is fair and a reasaonable assumption to make.

Last post for today. The Niners game is starting.

Absolutely "at a reasonable fair price."

Digitals can be useful for late night practice - for composing, too, if you get into that. When connected to a computer (please see my first post, edited re third-party sounds) you can get a good facsimile of recorded grands such as Steinway B and D, Bosendorfer Imperial, and Bluthner Model One. (Unique, warm voice with the Bluthner.)

No matter what you decide on, please make certain that it comes with the original packing box. *Very* handy when moving or offering for sale.

Thanks for the post and hope you enjoyed the 49ers.

I was hoping some others might have a word or two to add. Is there anything comparible to the Kawai CP177D made by Roland? I am correct in understanding that the comparible Yamaha would be the CVP300 series, correct? Can anybody give me a ballpark budget I should expect with these three models? Has anybody compared these three models personally? Thanks again for your help!

The KR series are the equivalent in Roland. KR-107 is the current top model there, but for sure there'll be a revision in some months time, as the HP series has gone through it yet.


I can guess it will add their newest generation keyboard and new, more complex samples, and maybe bigger touch pannel.


Regards,

Andrés.

I think there is. As andgold[/b] has pointed out the Roland KR-107 is their top model. I have tried it out myself as we have been looking for a new digital piano and I was extremely impressed by this model along with another one, the Roland HP-207. The touch was amazing and sound quality was exceptional on both!

But I think it all boils down to what you want to do with it. It looks to me like the Kawai in question has the same amount of features, more or less, as the Roland KR-107. My personal opinion is that the Roland looks more professional the way that it is set up and over all looks better. The features are really easy to use on the KR-107 and you basically need to just need to watch someone use them once to be able to use them yourself. The things you can do are endless on the Roland and the sounds it can make are absolutely amazing! (Organ sound is especially breath-taking!) The Roland KR-107 comes to around $6000 Canadian.

If you are looking more of a piano for just playing rather than using hundreds of features, then I suggest the Roland HP-207. (This is the keyboard that we are most likely getting.) This digital wonder has less features than the KR-107 but I think it plays just as well, if not better and feels magnificent! It has Ivory feeling keys with PHA II (Progressing Hammer Action 2) with Escapement. This gives the keyboard a real live Grand Piano feel that your wife might like since she grew up with a Grand. There are enough settings to fiddle around with but there are not too many to be overwhelmed with. This beauty comes to around $4000 Canadian.

That's my opinion and I hope I've helped, even just a little if so. I suggest taking time to sit down with the pianos and play them for an hour. That's what I did and I learnt alot from that experience. Also grab a few flyer's with info so you can compare at home.

Sara